RamCharger TEXAS
Well-Known Member
Thank goodness it isn't a fuel filter problem. It does start and run by the button. I'm posting a video on YouTube that shows the process and everything I talked about.
Please help I’m Stuck It’s been 5 months
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RamCharger TEXAS
Well-Known Member
I failed to mention I installed a new ignition switch earlier and on the video link I'm posting
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
If you installed a new switch, then it is not wired correctly bc the switch should activate the starter but the main feed wire has been disrupted and rerouted to the push button. Perhaps said a better way, the wire that is going to the push button should be going to the ignition switch. Look at the connector coming from the ignition switch, there should be a missing wire base on what you are saying.
RamCharger TEXAS
Well-Known Member
RamCharger TEXAS
Well-Known Member
How's this look to you?
Some colors don't match but I think it's the ignition switch I ordered from Amazon.
Standard Motor Products US88 Ignition Switch https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000C7YLRO/?tag=joeychgo-20
RamCharger TEXAS
Well-Known Member
This is part 3 of the ignition switch
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
.........And there's an old but good thread by AbodyJoe on this with photos
How To Install an Ignition Switch in 1970 Dodge Dart
It is ALSO possible that the switch IS NOT BAD which is why you need to do some checks first. There are several areas of concern and we here can step you through this
1.....Even though this is a 73, it might have the 74 seat belt interlock which I mentioned earlier
2.....There could easily be a wiring problem, a bad connection in the bulkhead / firewall connector, or at the ignition switch connector
3.....Depending on how the push button is wired, there could be a problem with the neutral safety switch wiring, with the switch, or simply the transmission linkage not properly adjusted
4.....And of course it can actually be a bad ignition switch
RamCharger TEXAS
Well-Known Member
I'm wondering if I. Installed the right switch
On Amazon it looks like I picked the tilt wheel does that make a difference??
I looked in my area it looks like there's a local AutoZone with one in stock. I could always just take it back if it doesn't work
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
^ @67Dart273 is right. Your switch probably isn't the culprit and you'll have to fix the wiring first no matter what because your button is wired into your starter relay. That gold box by your battery that your button runs to is your starter relay.
I would suspect the neutral safety switch as well. As has been suggested before, get a test light and learn to use it and do some testing. Randomly swapping parts can be costly and ineffective and most 'new' parts are far worse quality than serviceable 'old' parts are.
There are ways to defeat a neutral safety switch or seatbelt interlock as well in order to rule in or rule out that part of the circuit (I think the seatbelt safety is also a ground interrupt, but that's an assumption, I've never dealt with one). When I swapped to my 4spd, I temporarily changed my wiring on the start relay to bypass the neutral safety switch and it was pretty easy.
dirty white boy
50 yr old Juvenal delinquent
first,..pull solenoid off fender and take a wire brush to fender where it mounts! if it dont ground car wont ever crank! then check the bulk head connection make sure it ant fried!! then get a test light and check n see where you got power and where you dont!!! the key switch trips the solenoid, then the solenoid kicks the starter! if you ant found your issue by then, check to see if your getting power to coil while cranking motor over! all it takes is fuel spark an air to build a fire, but a ol mopar can be a pain to get right!
edit!!! straight gear cars shouldn't have neutral safety switch, thay got back up light switch on trans!!!!!!!! the wire coming off solenoid for neutral safety gose to bolt holding solenoid to fender to ground!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
edit!!! straight gear cars shouldn't have neutral safety switch, thay got back up light switch on trans!!!!!!!! the wire coming off solenoid for neutral safety gose to bolt holding solenoid to fender to ground!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
Ramcharger - I watched your videos and you have a lot going on there. Part of your frustration is that you don't know what you don't know; every guy here has been there as none of us were born with Mopar/car knowledge, so do not get too overwhelmed by it, it will come.
Having said that, let's begin with some basic stuff; first off the color of the wire/s has no bearing on where they go, what they do or if they are working. I that last video you talked a lot about the colors matching or not, does not matter really, what does matter is if the wires are correctly connected to the things they are supposed to connect to. In other words, each wire has a function, it is supposed to go to another wire to do something.
I am going to agree with the others and say that I think you have a safety neutral switch issue. Given this is a stick car, originally it would have been wired so that the car would not attempt to start unless the clutch was depressed or in neutral. Given the mess you got going on there I am going to guess that someone by passed this with the button instead of fixing it or bypassing the switch itself.
That big red wire coming from the ignition switch is your main power, it connects to another big wire that in the video almost looks pink (but was originally red). You can see a hole in the connector where it at one point probably got hot and melted (very common with old Mopars) and when you showed the inside of the connector, the old side (female) looks a bit ratty and while I think it is connecting, it doesn't look all that good.
The vehicle starting and running is in my opinion not connected with this switch issue, it is most likely a problem with the fuel; specifically the carburetor most likely needs a rebuild and the fuel pump is probably weak. You have no idea how much flow you are getting through the line so this could be an issue too. At the end of the fuel inside the tank there is what is called a fuel pickup (fancy way of saying the end that sucks the fuel). On this end there is what is called a "sock" (again, fancy way of saying a screen). These can and do get blocked, plugged etc. Additionally, there is no telling what is in the bottom of the tank sloshing around. Point here is that the starting and running issue is IMO not connected with the switch issue.
BTW, you do not need to hold the key forward when pushing the button, when the key is on it is allowing electricity/power to the ignition system (notice I did not say starting system), when you push the button you are initiating the starting system (i.e. starter).
You really need to do some research on basic electrical issues, I am not saying this in a condescending way or saying anything bad, I am saying that there is a ton of information online (youtube) to give you some information that will help you. Yes, practical exercise and using this forum are awesome, but as you can see, on forums you get a wide range of opinions and answers most of which are based on the idea that you are familiar with the principles and concepts of working on a car. Given that you were not aware that there is a difference between "cranking" and "running" gives me the idea that working on cars is something relatively new to you. This is not a dig nor am I saying anything against you at all, we all had to start some place and the members here will be more than willing to help you, however we as car guys all share common terminology, concepts and principles so we are able to communicate effectively and we want to help you get that beast on to the road.
So, with all this said, to get the issue of the ignition switch issue resolved (assuming that is where you want to go) you are going to need a test light, something that you can check to see if power is coming through a wire or not. Then you are going to have review the wiring diagram to determine what wire goes where. You also need an understanding of how that wire works, what I mean that some systems (many of them) work under a set of conditions, point in case a safety neutral switch. When you turn the key, there is power going to the starter relay, however inside of that there is a switch which does not let the power to pass to the starter UNTIL the switch is energized and/or grounded. Many people locate the safety neutral terminal on the starter relay and simply ground it out (meaning run a wire from the terminal to the screw holding the relay onto the inner fender). I suspect if you did that your ignition switch might actually work (might not, but worth a try).
If on the other hand you could live with the push button switch and just want it to start, then you need to focus on the fuel system to start, probably need to look at the plugs, wires, distributor can and rotor as well. Remember, everything in a car is a "system", it functions along with other systems to arrive at a running and driving vehicle.
Enough for now and sorry for the rant.
Having said that, let's begin with some basic stuff; first off the color of the wire/s has no bearing on where they go, what they do or if they are working. I that last video you talked a lot about the colors matching or not, does not matter really, what does matter is if the wires are correctly connected to the things they are supposed to connect to. In other words, each wire has a function, it is supposed to go to another wire to do something.
I am going to agree with the others and say that I think you have a safety neutral switch issue. Given this is a stick car, originally it would have been wired so that the car would not attempt to start unless the clutch was depressed or in neutral. Given the mess you got going on there I am going to guess that someone by passed this with the button instead of fixing it or bypassing the switch itself.
That big red wire coming from the ignition switch is your main power, it connects to another big wire that in the video almost looks pink (but was originally red). You can see a hole in the connector where it at one point probably got hot and melted (very common with old Mopars) and when you showed the inside of the connector, the old side (female) looks a bit ratty and while I think it is connecting, it doesn't look all that good.
The vehicle starting and running is in my opinion not connected with this switch issue, it is most likely a problem with the fuel; specifically the carburetor most likely needs a rebuild and the fuel pump is probably weak. You have no idea how much flow you are getting through the line so this could be an issue too. At the end of the fuel inside the tank there is what is called a fuel pickup (fancy way of saying the end that sucks the fuel). On this end there is what is called a "sock" (again, fancy way of saying a screen). These can and do get blocked, plugged etc. Additionally, there is no telling what is in the bottom of the tank sloshing around. Point here is that the starting and running issue is IMO not connected with the switch issue.
BTW, you do not need to hold the key forward when pushing the button, when the key is on it is allowing electricity/power to the ignition system (notice I did not say starting system), when you push the button you are initiating the starting system (i.e. starter).
You really need to do some research on basic electrical issues, I am not saying this in a condescending way or saying anything bad, I am saying that there is a ton of information online (youtube) to give you some information that will help you. Yes, practical exercise and using this forum are awesome, but as you can see, on forums you get a wide range of opinions and answers most of which are based on the idea that you are familiar with the principles and concepts of working on a car. Given that you were not aware that there is a difference between "cranking" and "running" gives me the idea that working on cars is something relatively new to you. This is not a dig nor am I saying anything against you at all, we all had to start some place and the members here will be more than willing to help you, however we as car guys all share common terminology, concepts and principles so we are able to communicate effectively and we want to help you get that beast on to the road.
So, with all this said, to get the issue of the ignition switch issue resolved (assuming that is where you want to go) you are going to need a test light, something that you can check to see if power is coming through a wire or not. Then you are going to have review the wiring diagram to determine what wire goes where. You also need an understanding of how that wire works, what I mean that some systems (many of them) work under a set of conditions, point in case a safety neutral switch. When you turn the key, there is power going to the starter relay, however inside of that there is a switch which does not let the power to pass to the starter UNTIL the switch is energized and/or grounded. Many people locate the safety neutral terminal on the starter relay and simply ground it out (meaning run a wire from the terminal to the screw holding the relay onto the inner fender). I suspect if you did that your ignition switch might actually work (might not, but worth a try).
If on the other hand you could live with the push button switch and just want it to start, then you need to focus on the fuel system to start, probably need to look at the plugs, wires, distributor can and rotor as well. Remember, everything in a car is a "system", it functions along with other systems to arrive at a running and driving vehicle.
Enough for now and sorry for the rant.
dirty white boy
50 yr old Juvenal delinquent
straight gear cars shouldn't have neutral safety switch, thay got back up light switch on trans!!!!!!!! the wire coming off solenoid for neutral safety gose to bolt holding solenoid to fender to ground!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
One more thing, I am attaching a picture, the terminal that says "ground" this would normally go to the safety neutral switch. This box should be located near the battery. Find this box, see if there is a wire connected to the "ground" terminal, if there is disconnect it and run a jumper wire from this terminal to a good clean ground (be careful as the main battery stud is just above it and will spark up and scare the crap out of you, disconnect the battery while you do this). Then, once grounded try the key and see if anything changes. Also, note that in your car this box (relay) could be mounted upside down, so look carefully at the lay out.
Did you put the push button switch in? If so, how did you wire it?
Did you put the push button switch in? If so, how did you wire it?
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
That is true for most older cars but some cars came with a "clutch safety" switch as well, I do not know if this did or not as I haven't looked at a diagram for one.
dirty white boy
50 yr old Juvenal delinquent
might be idk! i know my 71 4 speed didnt have one, nor dose my 80 D150! just went threw all this on my truck 3 weeks ago, got tired of pushing it off!
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
Either way and for the sake of the OP, need to sort out this wiring issue if he wants the key to work as designed.
dirty white boy
50 yr old Juvenal delinquent
as good as motor is spinning over it should crank n run ok! i think he losing juice to coil, bad coil or carb bowl ant holding gas and fuel pump gotta fill it for itll run...
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
He says it runs with starter fluid so the coil is getting juice if that is the case. If you watch the videos, that carb probably has never been open, so I would bet it has some issues; that said it looks like a lot of things need work and I would not be surprised if the coil was weak. Point here is that he does not have a good starting (no pun intended) point, everything is suspect and the ignition switch is a distraction to getting the car running. If I had the car, I would work on getting it running reliably first, then worry about the ignition switch. Basically what he has right now is a remote starter switch connected inside the car; when I build cars I always use a remote switch outside the car to start and tune the car.
Why are you so happy it's not a fuel filter problem? The fuel filter is one of the most simple things to replace. If you dread it being a fuel filter problem, it's time to take up paper dolls.
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
Probably tired of spending money on parts people suggest to him that don't fix his problem ;)
I know I would be..
Red63440
Olddawg
Pour a small amount of fuel into the carburetor and try starting the car.
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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Well, I just gotta say, as much starter fluid as this thing has choked down, there likely isn't any oil left on the cylinder walls to make the rings seal. And if the rings don't seal, the pistons can't pull gas out the main wells and that engine will never run.
Right now you need to get some oil into the cylinders to help the ring seal. So take out the plugs and put a tablespoonful or so in each hole, then turn the engine over one turn, and repeat. Then put a charger on that battery, and walk away for an hour.
While you are waiting;
>Check the oil level and quality, it may be partly/mostly gas by now; do what you gotta do.
>make a jumper wire with clips about 6ft long. Later, you are gonna connect the battery to the powerside of the ballast resistor ( figure out how) , to power the ignition system up.
> Go mix up a small pop-bottle of fresh gas with at least 5% two-cycle oil. Then go find a tiny funnel to insert into the carburetor bowl and pour some of that gas into the bowl, about 30 or 40 CCz, or until it starts running into the intake. .
>When the hour has expired, come back, crank the engine over for a few seconds, maybe like 5 or 6, to puke out the excess oil. Then reinstall the plugs,etc.
>Ok next, put the fast idle up on the highest step.
>Next dribble another 10 to 15cc ( couple of tablespoonfuls) or so of that mixed gas into the carb airhorn.
>Then connect the power to the ballast thru the jumper. After this, you will not be able to turn the car off with the keyswitch, but will instead have to disconnect the jumper to kill the ignition circuit.
>Ok, do not touch the gas pedal.
>Now crank it! until it begins firing and keep cranking it until it catches and keeps running, and do not stop until it does or until 30 or so seconds of cranking time goes by;none of this 5-second crank bs. The running or firing engine cannot hurt your starter, there is an overrunning clutch in there to prevent damage. And as long as the engine is firing, the load on the starter is almost nothing, so your little tiny starter supply wire shouldn't get hot.
>If it hasn't begun to run after 30 or so seconds of cranking, STOP cranking! Something is mechanically wrong. Disconnect the jumper.
But, IMO , the engine will sputter for a few seconds, then spring to life, and the Rs will scream up to 2000rpm or thereabouts. If your fuel system is working and delivering combustible fuel, it will continue to scream at 2000 or whatever. If you feel it is too fast, then kick it off the fast idle cam, and just let the speed come down to 2000 or less, but just hold the pedal there until you have proved the fuel system is keeping up. Or about 2 minutes.
If I'm right; congratulations you now know how to hotwire a 73 Duster...... or any other Mopar of that era. All I ask is that you stay away from mine,lol.
If I'm wrong, you'll have to check a few mechanical things,lol....... and we'll have to start over.
Right now you need to get some oil into the cylinders to help the ring seal. So take out the plugs and put a tablespoonful or so in each hole, then turn the engine over one turn, and repeat. Then put a charger on that battery, and walk away for an hour.
While you are waiting;
>Check the oil level and quality, it may be partly/mostly gas by now; do what you gotta do.
>make a jumper wire with clips about 6ft long. Later, you are gonna connect the battery to the powerside of the ballast resistor ( figure out how) , to power the ignition system up.
> Go mix up a small pop-bottle of fresh gas with at least 5% two-cycle oil. Then go find a tiny funnel to insert into the carburetor bowl and pour some of that gas into the bowl, about 30 or 40 CCz, or until it starts running into the intake. .
>When the hour has expired, come back, crank the engine over for a few seconds, maybe like 5 or 6, to puke out the excess oil. Then reinstall the plugs,etc.
>Ok next, put the fast idle up on the highest step.
>Next dribble another 10 to 15cc ( couple of tablespoonfuls) or so of that mixed gas into the carb airhorn.
>Then connect the power to the ballast thru the jumper. After this, you will not be able to turn the car off with the keyswitch, but will instead have to disconnect the jumper to kill the ignition circuit.
>Ok, do not touch the gas pedal.
>Now crank it! until it begins firing and keep cranking it until it catches and keeps running, and do not stop until it does or until 30 or so seconds of cranking time goes by;none of this 5-second crank bs. The running or firing engine cannot hurt your starter, there is an overrunning clutch in there to prevent damage. And as long as the engine is firing, the load on the starter is almost nothing, so your little tiny starter supply wire shouldn't get hot.
>If it hasn't begun to run after 30 or so seconds of cranking, STOP cranking! Something is mechanically wrong. Disconnect the jumper.
But, IMO , the engine will sputter for a few seconds, then spring to life, and the Rs will scream up to 2000rpm or thereabouts. If your fuel system is working and delivering combustible fuel, it will continue to scream at 2000 or whatever. If you feel it is too fast, then kick it off the fast idle cam, and just let the speed come down to 2000 or less, but just hold the pedal there until you have proved the fuel system is keeping up. Or about 2 minutes.
If I'm right; congratulations you now know how to hotwire a 73 Duster...... or any other Mopar of that era. All I ask is that you stay away from mine,lol.
If I'm wrong, you'll have to check a few mechanical things,lol....... and we'll have to start over.
RamCharger TEXAS
Well-Known Member
YES YES DEAR LORD YES finally the KEY WORKS !!!! That worked!!!
Literally crying on the inside lol.
So now the car does crank with the key I removed the push button and wiring completely.
So can this be a permanent solution or is the problem still underlaying elsewhere?
Followed the directions. So what do I do now what is wrong here?
Sidenote.
Gonna clean the fuel filter and see if this helps and clean the carb up and try what you guys suggest. This is coming along sweetly
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70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
OK, great, making progress. You can just leave that as it is now so long as the connection you made is good (like not just a jumper wire with bare ends). I is a ground so there isn't any worry about sparks and such, but there is of corrosion and the wiring losing contact so you should have good ends at least crimped on (I crimp and solder all of my wires).
What do you mean by "so what do I do now what is wrong here"?
So now onto trying to get it to start and run; first thing you need to do is check to see if the carb has fuel, you do this by looking into with a flash light (definitely NOT an open flame like a lighter); with your hand work the throttle lever (part connected to the cable that moves when you push the gas pedal). You should see some gas squirt into the carb. If you do not, then the carb is not getting gas, if you do then of course it is and you can move on.
Understand that these old Mopars all have personalities to a degree, some like a lot of fuel to start, others not so much. The carb has a choke on it (little plate on the on the inside of the carb near the top), when the car/engine is cold that plate should be closed or near closed (this causes the engine vacuum to draw in more fuel to start and run when it is cold). You can actually simulate this by placing your hand over the carb when it is cranking (either someone else turning the key or using a remote starter button).
As I said before, everything is a system and in order to get the engine to run, it must have air, fuel, spark and compression. If the carb is getting gas, then its a matter of determining if it is getting enough. Normally you would put some gas into a bottom or small can and pour some into the carb (right now the top). You should not need a whole lot but not a few drops either, probably something like you think of would be a "mouthful" if you were drinking something. If you put too much the engine will be flooded and you will need to wait and let it evaporate or in come cases you can hold the gas pedal to the floor completely opening the choke and crank it and sometimes they will start. You can also pull the spark plugs and crank it over a little which pushes the air/fuel out the holes and makes it dry out faster; personally I would just wait.
Assuming you are getting fuel and it still doesn't want to run, you will need to turn to the spark side of things, but lets not get ahead of ourselves since it has run previously I suspect that this is just a fuel issue at the moment.
Just for fun, you need to pour some fuel down the carb as I mentioned before messing with the filter or anything else. If it fires but will not run, then you can start to try and figure out why it isn't getting fuel and at that point the filter would be the first stop.
What do you mean by "so what do I do now what is wrong here"?
So now onto trying to get it to start and run; first thing you need to do is check to see if the carb has fuel, you do this by looking into with a flash light (definitely NOT an open flame like a lighter); with your hand work the throttle lever (part connected to the cable that moves when you push the gas pedal). You should see some gas squirt into the carb. If you do not, then the carb is not getting gas, if you do then of course it is and you can move on.
Understand that these old Mopars all have personalities to a degree, some like a lot of fuel to start, others not so much. The carb has a choke on it (little plate on the on the inside of the carb near the top), when the car/engine is cold that plate should be closed or near closed (this causes the engine vacuum to draw in more fuel to start and run when it is cold). You can actually simulate this by placing your hand over the carb when it is cranking (either someone else turning the key or using a remote starter button).
As I said before, everything is a system and in order to get the engine to run, it must have air, fuel, spark and compression. If the carb is getting gas, then its a matter of determining if it is getting enough. Normally you would put some gas into a bottom or small can and pour some into the carb (right now the top). You should not need a whole lot but not a few drops either, probably something like you think of would be a "mouthful" if you were drinking something. If you put too much the engine will be flooded and you will need to wait and let it evaporate or in come cases you can hold the gas pedal to the floor completely opening the choke and crank it and sometimes they will start. You can also pull the spark plugs and crank it over a little which pushes the air/fuel out the holes and makes it dry out faster; personally I would just wait.
Assuming you are getting fuel and it still doesn't want to run, you will need to turn to the spark side of things, but lets not get ahead of ourselves since it has run previously I suspect that this is just a fuel issue at the moment.
Just for fun, you need to pour some fuel down the carb as I mentioned before messing with the filter or anything else. If it fires but will not run, then you can start to try and figure out why it isn't getting fuel and at that point the filter would be the first stop.
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