Looking for advice, BB headers vs. HP manifolds

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Machineman63 said:
Andy,
What do you think are the power level limits in each setup?
manifolds vs 1-5/8' step ?
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For a street car I focus on fit. What fits the best, what looks the best, what allows be to change plugs and maintain the engine. For a race car I'd worry about power.

These threads are full of people who have street cars but think they have race cars. That confusion causes most of the problems.
 
pishta said:
3 is a huge pipe and there aint alot of room for them back there over the rear and outboard of the tank.
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You aren't kidding. I had 3" dumping before the axle for a few years and decided to make some tailpipes for it. I ended up sticking with 3", just because, even though it wasn't needed. It took a bit of effort to snake it through the back end with a car that has been mini-tubbed. Next time, I would go 2.5" just for ease of install.
 
Alaskan_TA said:
Headers for an all out race car.

In a street car, they are a pain from fitting, speed bumps & a lot of extra heat under the drivers feet.
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That's why Ma Mopar gave us those little beer/weed stashing boxes above your left foot...

Not only that, but on a hot day and if you wear shorts, and as long as you dont park under a pine tree, you have a ball cooling system.
 
Machineman63 said:
Andy,
What do you think are the power level limits in each setup?
manifolds vs 1-5/8' step ?
Click to expand...

There are definitely guys including myself that have pushed the 500 mark with 1.625" Schumacher tri Y's. Know that it definitely is a hindrance and will also make your engine run hotter but it can be done.

TTI makes such an awesome piece and they really aren't that bad to get in there WITH EXCEPTION to the damned starter being captured. Worst part hands down.
 
Usually, if one is being realistic about the budget, desired power level, and overall usage of the vehicle....... the exhaust decision gets easier.

If I was intent on building an A body street car, and the header situation was a concern...... I’d skip right past the BB and just put a stroker SB in it.
 
PRH said:
I’d skip right past the BB and just put a stroker SB in it.
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You are absolutely correct sir, but, for reasons I can't justify or explain, I've always wanted a BB car but I've never had one. I think a 69 Dart is about the best looking car on the planet. So I'm willing to put up with some monkey business to get there. The 383 is all cold and lonely sitting in the shop, waiting for a Dart to come home to play...
 
AndyF said:
For a street car I focus on fit. What fits the best, what looks the best, what allows be to change plugs and maintain the engine. For a race car I'd worry about power.

These threads are full of people who have street cars but think they have race cars. That confusion causes most of the problems.
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This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only thing I'd add about fit is I don't care how much effort it is to get a good fitting header on. I want it to fit once it's in there. And be able to get to the spark plugs without being a contortionist and using 3 extentions and 2 universals. And I don't want to change valve gover gaskets tow or three times a year.

There are some things I'd never do. One is use a fender well header. Big time power killers. Plus I hate hacking the crap out of a car for headers that don't work, don't fit very well and make the engine compartment look nasty.

The other thing is use an off the shelf cam with manifolds. And cam grinder can work around manifolds and not give up as much power as you would with FW headers.
 
And cam grinder can work around manifolds and not give up as much power as you would with FW headers.
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“Uuuuhhhh...... I don’t think so Tim”

On a rather mild build you could get it where there wouldn’t be much difference between headers and manifolds....... but as the power goes up, the spread between them will grow.

A couple years ago a guy on Moparts had his TF headed 6bbl stroker on the dyno.
The intention was to run ex manifolds in the car....... until they bolted a set on the motor and saw the power numbers go down by 90hp.
 
I run Schumacher, i would never run manifolds on a car unless it's a restoration, too damn heavy!
 
PRH said:
“Uuuuhhhh...... I don’t think so Tim”

On a rather mild build you could get it where there wouldn’t be much difference between headers and manifolds....... but as the power goes up, the spread between them will grow.

A couple years ago a guy on Moparts had his TF headed 6bbl stroker on the dyno.
The intention was to run ex manifolds in the car....... until they bolted a set on the motor and saw the power numbers go down by 90hp.
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Did they compare the loss to a set of FW headers or chassis headers?
 
You’re saying the manifolds are better than FW headers.

So, your position is that there would be over 90hp difference between chassis headers and FW headers?

My experience for Mopar powered cars running in the FAST class..........I have dyno tested the motors for the 2 quickest and fastest 6bbl cars, and the 2 quickest and fastest 4bbl BB’s, along with the quickest and fastest SB Mopar.

What they make for power for the amount of $$$ and effort applied...... is not impressive.
Until you add the stipulation.......”with ex manifolds”.
Manifolds are a huge impediment for making any real power.

Your cam with manifolds vs my cam with FW headers?.......... I really like my chances.
 
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PRH said:
You’re saying the manifolds are better than FW headers.

So, your position is that there would be over 90hp difference between chassis headers and FW headers?

My experience for Mopar powered cars running in the FAST class..........I have dyno tested the motors for the 2 quickest and fastest 6bbl cars, and the 2 quickest and fastest 4bbl BB’s, along with the quickest and fastest SB Mopar.

What they make for power for the amount of $$$ and effort applied...... is not impressive.
Until you add the stipulation.......”with ex manifolds”.
Manifolds are a huge impediment for making any real power.

Your cam with manifolds vs my cam with FW headers?.......... I really like my chances.
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I agree with you that manifolds are a big power loser.

I'm saying that FW headers are maybe, maybe a bit better than manifolds. Maybe. They are way too long and usually the primaries are way too small along with small collectors.

If I had two choices between FW headers and manifolds, I'd pick the manifolds every day of the week, and get a cam ground to do as much as you can with the manifolds.

That's what I'm saying.
 
yellow rose said:
I agree with you that manifolds are a big power loser.

I'm saying that FW headers are maybe, maybe a bit better than manifolds. Maybe. They are way too long and usually the primaries are way too small along with small collectors.

If I had two choices between FW headers and manifolds, I'd pick the manifolds every day of the week, and get a cam ground to do as much as you can with the manifolds.

That's what I'm saying.
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Not argueing here , but my best friend was an 18 time national record holder , and ran fender well headers , they are still on the wrecked car .
 
I'm saying that FW headers are maybe, maybe a bit better than manifolds. Maybe.
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You’re kidding yourself........ or you haven’t done any testing....... or both.
 
halfafish said:
I continue to pick the collective brain pool here, as I work on assembling a Big Block 69 Dart. No car yet, but I'm gathering parts.

The engine is a 383 intended to be nothing crazy. I want a fun street car with good manners and improved performance from stock, running on junk gas. It might hit the strip once in a while, but mostly it will be a street car with more emphasis on handling than straight line speed. Shaving weight up front is one of my goals. I plan on an aluminum intake, water pump housing and pump, and heads.

It will have manual brakes and steering and a 4-speed. Unless I am completely mistaken (always a possibility in my world :eek:), headers will offer the best performance. But in an A-body, there are issues getting them past the Z-bar. TTI appears to be the best fit option, and they do offer a modified Z-bar to help with fitment, but we're talking somewhere around $1000 or more for this setup.

A guy local to me has a set of B-body 383 HP manifolds for sale somewhat reasonably (asking $375). From reading on the Big Block Dart site, it appears I can fit these in an A-body by cutting back the steering shaft surround.

The question for the group has to do with performance and trade-offs. I think headers will give more performance but at higher cost and with fitment issues. Manifolds will likely fit easier, but probably weigh more. Would HP manifolds be a sufficient performance part for my build, or should I just wait and pony up the bucks for TTI's?
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If you don't have the car yet then maybe you should rethink the four speed. Four speeds used to be fun to drive back in the day but with traffic the way it is now I almost dread taking my stick car out for a drive. I have a manual valve body 727 in my other car and it is much easier to deal with in traffic. The Z bar also gets in the way on a big block conversion while the automatic is a little easier to hook up. Headers will be easier with an automatic.
 
This is turning into a fun and interesting conversation. I didn't want anyone to think I'd dropped off the playing field, I'm watching this. It's very interesting to see the differing viewpoints and the reasoning behind the opinions.

Some more info for the discussion. I can't justify or explain some of this stuff. I think a 69 Dart is the slickest car around. I am not going to "settle" for something else. I will wait till I find one. I fully acknowledge a well done SB will do everything and maybe more than a mild-to-moderate BB. But I don't care. I want a 383 4-speed 69 Dart and I'm willing to do what it takes to get there. I want the build to be nicely snappy with the power and torque pulling hard from idle to maybe 5K or so. I am not trying to squeeze the last drop of performance from this. I figure a decent 383 will easily make 400 HP and more. That's enough for me - I am not building a giant killer. I want it to run well on junk pump gas, the 87 octane stuff around here. I do not want to have to fiddle with this at great length. I don't mind working on and fixing things, but I'm a set-it-and-forget-it kind of guy. Put it together and drive it is my plan. The weekend warriors that tear down their car a couple of times a month live in a different place than I do.

I want the car to have good street manners. I want it to handle well, so some of my plans are to take the weight disadvantage of the BB and lighten it up. I already have an aluminum intake (an Offy 360 - single plane but divided plenum, runs from 1800-5800 RPM). I have an aluminum water pump and housing. I will get aluminum heads (suggestions warmly welcomed) but while improved performance will be nice, weight savings is a big goal.

So this brings us back to the original question, headers vs. HP manifolds. I'm not trying to make a street killer, and user-friendly install/use is OK with me. Headers give better performance, but the downside is fitment issues. Manifolds are much easier to plumb, but could be heavier. Since this started, I committed to the manifold side of this discussion as I found a driver-side original 68-69 BB A-body HP manifold. All I need now is any kind (A-, B-, or C- body) passenger-side HP manifold and I'm good to go. I continue to solicit thoughts and opinions on the build, please weigh in as you think necessary.

AndyF said:
If you don't have the car yet then maybe you should rethink the four speed.
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Andy, I get that, and I appreciate the input. Ultimate ease of making this happen isn't my top priority. I drove truck for 25+ years, shifting gears in traffic doesn't bother me. I'm making my dream car. I'm a 3-pedal guy, and the Dart will use the A833 4-speed sitting lonely and unloved at the moment on the floor of my shop.

To all, feel free to weigh in with your thoughts on the matter...
 
Sounds like a good plan. My advice is to stroke the engine so it has more torque and is easier to drive around town. Use some high quality aluminum heads, Edelbrock or Trick Flow and put fuel injection on it. You'll also want to put a 26 inch radiator in it so plan ahead on cutting the core support so you can put a big radiator in it. I'd sell the Offy 360 intake and use the money to buy something more modern such as a Performer RPM. You might want to read the thread on my BB Duster. I covered a lot of the same things in my build that you're asking about: Starting a BB Duster project
 
I already know I am going to run manifolds, so I am not going to ask anyone's opinion. lol
 
I'm going to say this up front, I skipped all the replies, and I have a B-Body (70 Roadrunner) manual transmission.
I got polished, ceramic coated TTi headers. Unless I need larger primaries (1&⅞" is my current size) I will NEVER need to replace them.
I see AndyF has offered advice, and it's hard not to say "Take it".
As far as power gains, headers vs manifolds are one of the triad of FUNDAMENTAL power adders: intake/cam/headers.
Now, given my 440 is a 6bbl, I would substitute cylinder heads for an intake swap, because my aluminum 6bbl intake is pretty badass for factory. Having said that, I am giddy that after a year of mind shredding internal debate, I finally succumbed to the Siren-like lure of the Weiand P3690982 "pro stock" low profile tunnel/cross ram. The first time I remember noticing it, I saw a F&B 3x2 EFI direct port injection version of it, and I haven't been able to get it out of my head since. Blame @mosleyme ...lol.
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Get the TTi headers, and be happy...
Life is short!
 
I have a 383 4 speed. Bought Schumacher headers new and at the time they sent them out to modify the left one for the stock Z bar.
I have aluminum heads, and spark plugs are incredibly easy to get in and out. Socket, rachet, and one short extension for a few.
Headers do not interfere with Z bar or anything else. Recently went with new gaskets, forget the brand but reusable, no problems changing them.
If needed, can remove headers by unbolting engine mount and raising a bit.
Getting every bit of power wasn't my goal, so I didn't look into that part.
 
matthon said:
I have a 383 4 speed. Bought Schumacher headers new and at the time they sent them out to modify the left one for the stock Z bar.
I have aluminum heads, and spark plugs are incredibly easy to get in and out. Socket, rachet, and one short extension for a few.
Headers do not interfere with Z bar or anything else. Recently went with new gaskets, forget the brand but reusable, no problems changing them.
If needed, can remove headers by unbolting engine mount and raising a bit.
Getting every bit of power wasn't my goal, so I didn't look into that part.
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Do all that in a 63-66.
 
matthon said:
I have a 383 4 speed. Bought Schumacher headers new and at the time they sent them out to modify the left one for the stock Z bar.
I have aluminum heads, and spark plugs are incredibly easy to get in and out. Socket, rachet, and one short extension for a few.
Headers do not interfere with Z bar or anything else. Recently went with new gaskets, forget the brand but reusable, no problems changing them.
If needed, can remove headers by unbolting engine mount and raising a bit.
Getting every bit of power wasn't my goal, so I didn't look into that part.
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I can do both header gaskets with Schumacher headers in about 30mins, super easy compared to any other header I've ever done.
 
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