j par
Well-hung Member
10-4 I'm a little ways off of putting those heads on anyways I planned on a summer project for that...
Nitrous plumbing A1A...??..
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lead69
hopeless car junkie
As far as the 8553 head gaskets I say to each their own but the bottom line is from what you have mentioned about your engine you should be looking at cometics for the correct clearance. My pistons were .017 average out of the hole and I went with these https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cgt-c5622-056/make/dodge Probably not what you want to hear but its a worth while investment to know things are right.
j par
Well-hung Member
On the contrary it's exactly what I want to hear. Understand they cost a little bit more but it's not out of the world. Never have had anything on the car that didn't cost at least plus half of what I paid for the custom part to put it in... lol..
lead69
hopeless car junkie
The other benefit is you can tailor your compression a bit and decrease crevice volume which is good.
j par
Well-hung Member
It looks like if you go down to a .051 it's only like $80... And in that respect two 1008's are $82... with my planned intentions this is probably where I'll put the extra fifty bucks over the 1553...
justinp61
Well-Known Member
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No, not intending anything of the sort. There are three things I want out of my cars. One to be fast, two to stop well and to be safe. I had a Dart with a 440 in it years ago, it was fast but didn’t stop well and wasn’t safe. Every car I’ve owned since then has done all three well.
Looking cool was never a thought during the builds. Fast cars are cool though.
Good luck with the nitrous.
j par
Well-hung Member
Nitrous oxide, and its relationship to engine performance, is probably the single most misunderstood component of today's automotive aftermarket. The myths and misinformation surrounding this gaseous substance could easily supply plot lines for an entire season of "C.S.I. Miami." Rather than getting caught up in all the hype, we'll begin by taking a simple, straightforward look at how nitrous oxide increases horsepower in an internal combustion engine. Then we'll talk about different methods of installing nitrous oxide on a vehicle; finally we'll address, and dispel, some of the rumors relating to this oft-maligned gas.
When nitrous oxide is present in an engine's combustion chamber, it greatly increases the amount of oxygen that can be burned to produce horsepower. Normally, oxygen makes up about 20 percent of the earth's atmosphere (with increasingly less oxygen at higher altitudes). This means that about 20 percent of the average intake charge is also made up of oxygen, and it is this amount that combines with vehicle fuel to produce combustion. But when nitrous oxide is introduced to the combustion chamber, the percentage of oxygen rises dramatically and allows for substantially more fuel to be used to produce a significantly more powerful explosion. This situation is similar to the one created by using a turbocharger or supercharger--the end result is a higher concentration of oxygen and fuel within the combustion chamber. The only difference is that instead of increasing the volume of air entering the combustion chamber, which is what a turbo or supercharger does, nitrous oxide alters the content of the air entering the combustion chamber; specifically, the oxygen content.
An interesting side effect of using nitrous oxide is the cooling effect it has on intake temperatures. When released from a pressurized container, nitrous oxide drops to around minus 125 degrees, which can cool the overall intake charge by up to 75 degrees, resulting in even more horsepower.
So how does one safely and effectively utilize nitrous oxide for horsepower gains? Thankfully, the ability to accomplish this has improved dramatically since the '40s when the magic of nitrous oxide was first discovered by hot rodders. Early nitrous systems were primitive and inefficient, often resulting in the destruction of engines and giving nitrous a reputation for "blowing things up," a reputation it still carries today.
Currently there are several aftermarket companies that specialize in adapting nitrous oxide for use on automobiles, but the best known of these is Nitrous Oxide Systems, or NOS, located in Costa Mesa, Calif. (nosnitrous.com). This company offers a wide range of nitrous oxide kits, but they can be broken down into two major categories: plate/carb and direct-port systems. The plate/carb design is the less expensive and easier to install kit that uses a single nozzle mounted in the intake system. The direct-port systems are more elaborate (and expensive) and include a nozzle for each cylinder to assure a more complete and efficient distribution of nitrous oxide gas. The prices on these systems range from approximately $500 to $1,000, which is a bargain considering the potential performance gains. For instance, an inexpensive plate/carb system can add 75 horsepower and may add as much as 150 horsepower. The top level, direct port-type systems can add as much as 1,000 horsepower.
Nitrous Oxide Myths
1. "I'm not using nitrous, that stuff'll blow up my engine!" While nitrous oxide has the potential to cause engine damage, it can provide years of safe and effective horsepower gains if installed and operated properly. Obviously, an expert on how to utilize nitrous oxide should be consulted before a kit is installed.
2. "How can my stock engine deal with the additional horsepower?" There are no guarantees when increasing engine performance above the manufacturer's specifications. However, most manufacturers have a "safety margin" designed into their engines that allows for increases in horsepower with no detrimental effects. Also, because the use of nitrous oxide is driver controlled, its exposure to your engine occurs when desired only, allowing the engine to operate under normal conditions most of the time.
3. "Is it legal to use nitrous oxide?" Yes, as long as the components have a certification number. However, an irritated or uninformed police officer may still write a ticket if he sees a nitrous oxide container. It is then up to the individual to appear in court and prove the system's legality.
4. "What if the bottle blows up?!" As mentioned earlier, nitrous oxide itself is not flammable. It does contain a high amount of oxygen which, when combined with fuel, causes a more rapid and powerful explosion.
This column is not meant to endorse the use of nitrous oxide because its advantages will likely appeal to a narrow range of automotive enthusiasts. The concept of regularly filling a container with nitrous oxide just to get extra bursts of speed goes beyond the average driver's tolerance level. At the same time, nitrous oxide should not be dismissed as a risky or primitive performance modification used by speed freaks (certain characters from "The Road Warrior" movie not withstanding). Its cost, ease of use, and real-world performance gains make it a viable option to fulfill your need for speed.
When nitrous oxide is present in an engine's combustion chamber, it greatly increases the amount of oxygen that can be burned to produce horsepower. Normally, oxygen makes up about 20 percent of the earth's atmosphere (with increasingly less oxygen at higher altitudes). This means that about 20 percent of the average intake charge is also made up of oxygen, and it is this amount that combines with vehicle fuel to produce combustion. But when nitrous oxide is introduced to the combustion chamber, the percentage of oxygen rises dramatically and allows for substantially more fuel to be used to produce a significantly more powerful explosion. This situation is similar to the one created by using a turbocharger or supercharger--the end result is a higher concentration of oxygen and fuel within the combustion chamber. The only difference is that instead of increasing the volume of air entering the combustion chamber, which is what a turbo or supercharger does, nitrous oxide alters the content of the air entering the combustion chamber; specifically, the oxygen content.
An interesting side effect of using nitrous oxide is the cooling effect it has on intake temperatures. When released from a pressurized container, nitrous oxide drops to around minus 125 degrees, which can cool the overall intake charge by up to 75 degrees, resulting in even more horsepower.
So how does one safely and effectively utilize nitrous oxide for horsepower gains? Thankfully, the ability to accomplish this has improved dramatically since the '40s when the magic of nitrous oxide was first discovered by hot rodders. Early nitrous systems were primitive and inefficient, often resulting in the destruction of engines and giving nitrous a reputation for "blowing things up," a reputation it still carries today.
Currently there are several aftermarket companies that specialize in adapting nitrous oxide for use on automobiles, but the best known of these is Nitrous Oxide Systems, or NOS, located in Costa Mesa, Calif. (nosnitrous.com). This company offers a wide range of nitrous oxide kits, but they can be broken down into two major categories: plate/carb and direct-port systems. The plate/carb design is the less expensive and easier to install kit that uses a single nozzle mounted in the intake system. The direct-port systems are more elaborate (and expensive) and include a nozzle for each cylinder to assure a more complete and efficient distribution of nitrous oxide gas. The prices on these systems range from approximately $500 to $1,000, which is a bargain considering the potential performance gains. For instance, an inexpensive plate/carb system can add 75 horsepower and may add as much as 150 horsepower. The top level, direct port-type systems can add as much as 1,000 horsepower.
Nitrous Oxide Myths
1. "I'm not using nitrous, that stuff'll blow up my engine!" While nitrous oxide has the potential to cause engine damage, it can provide years of safe and effective horsepower gains if installed and operated properly. Obviously, an expert on how to utilize nitrous oxide should be consulted before a kit is installed.
2. "How can my stock engine deal with the additional horsepower?" There are no guarantees when increasing engine performance above the manufacturer's specifications. However, most manufacturers have a "safety margin" designed into their engines that allows for increases in horsepower with no detrimental effects. Also, because the use of nitrous oxide is driver controlled, its exposure to your engine occurs when desired only, allowing the engine to operate under normal conditions most of the time.
3. "Is it legal to use nitrous oxide?" Yes, as long as the components have a certification number. However, an irritated or uninformed police officer may still write a ticket if he sees a nitrous oxide container. It is then up to the individual to appear in court and prove the system's legality.
4. "What if the bottle blows up?!" As mentioned earlier, nitrous oxide itself is not flammable. It does contain a high amount of oxygen which, when combined with fuel, causes a more rapid and powerful explosion.
This column is not meant to endorse the use of nitrous oxide because its advantages will likely appeal to a narrow range of automotive enthusiasts. The concept of regularly filling a container with nitrous oxide just to get extra bursts of speed goes beyond the average driver's tolerance level. At the same time, nitrous oxide should not be dismissed as a risky or primitive performance modification used by speed freaks (certain characters from "The Road Warrior" movie not withstanding). Its cost, ease of use, and real-world performance gains make it a viable option to fulfill your need for speed.
and here's something I read earlier which is good info and along the same lines but with a bit more added info
>
Nitrous doesn't care what octane rating the fuel is. The TIMING is what matters. The lower the fuel octane, the lower the timing you run.
Nitrous drastically increases the efficiency of the motor, by creating a quicker and cleaner burn. The quicker and cleaner the burn, the less spark lead the motor needs. No different than a motor with poor heads needing 40* of timing to run hard and when you put a better head on it, then it only needs 32* to run hard. You have made the motor more efficient. Timing does NOT make power. Timing is only when you light the fire in the hole in an attempt to have a complete burn by about 15* ATDC. When you think about it, advanced timing is fighting what you are trying to do. The sooner you light it, the more the motor has to overcome in the increasing cylinder pressure of lighting the fire early. In a perfect world, the closer to TDC you could light the fire and burn it completely by 15 after, the more power you could make by freeing the motor up. Unfortunately engines are just not THAT efficient yet. Don't put timing in until it slows down and run the max you can. Pull timing OUT until it slows down. If it runs the same at 36* as it does at 40*, the latter is doing you no good and only increases your chances of pre-ignition.
TIMING is what destroys nitrous motors NOT lean. With enough timing out, you can't get one lean enough to hurt it. It will just be down on power, like any other vehicle that is lean. No fuel, no power.
Too many are under the impression that timing MAKES power, it does not. Timing, or spark lead is just where you light the fire based on the efficiency of your engine to get a complete burn. The combination is what makes power, NOT how much timing you run in it.
The "old school" way rich tunes seemed to stand more timing, simply because you were not making near the power you thought you were, because it was dead rich. Way rich, with big loads of nitrous this will beat ring lands off pistons faster than you can replace them.
A nitrous motor of any kind always responds to plenum volume
A piston with the top half burned is strictly too much timing
Take plenty of timing out to be safe enough. If you are not detonating its harder to hurt it. Rich tunes are not safer tunes. It's nearly impossible to hurt something running too lean. If you are detonating like crazy and stuff is about to melt, well you might hurt it. But, lack of fuel didn't do this. Detonation got it.
On new stuff start with a really lean hit. Run engine timing as low as possible and with a nice lean tune in carb. Pull plenty of timing. 2 per 50hp (not necessarily the rule today). Another 4 if you have a small quench, less than .040”
To tune from here. Trim fuel pressure to see if you pick up mph. If not put it back. Take another degree of timing out. If it don't pick up put it back.
Add a degree of timing, try again. Key thing is if the mph quits picking up put it back. New plugs pushed in the lanes and cut off at end of pass will give you the best reading.
>Nitrous doesn't care what octane rating the fuel is. The TIMING is what matters. The lower the fuel octane, the lower the timing you run.
Nitrous drastically increases the efficiency of the motor, by creating a quicker and cleaner burn. The quicker and cleaner the burn, the less spark lead the motor needs. No different than a motor with poor heads needing 40* of timing to run hard and when you put a better head on it, then it only needs 32* to run hard. You have made the motor more efficient. Timing does NOT make power. Timing is only when you light the fire in the hole in an attempt to have a complete burn by about 15* ATDC. When you think about it, advanced timing is fighting what you are trying to do. The sooner you light it, the more the motor has to overcome in the increasing cylinder pressure of lighting the fire early. In a perfect world, the closer to TDC you could light the fire and burn it completely by 15 after, the more power you could make by freeing the motor up. Unfortunately engines are just not THAT efficient yet. Don't put timing in until it slows down and run the max you can. Pull timing OUT until it slows down. If it runs the same at 36* as it does at 40*, the latter is doing you no good and only increases your chances of pre-ignition.
TIMING is what destroys nitrous motors NOT lean. With enough timing out, you can't get one lean enough to hurt it. It will just be down on power, like any other vehicle that is lean. No fuel, no power.
Too many are under the impression that timing MAKES power, it does not. Timing, or spark lead is just where you light the fire based on the efficiency of your engine to get a complete burn. The combination is what makes power, NOT how much timing you run in it.
The "old school" way rich tunes seemed to stand more timing, simply because you were not making near the power you thought you were, because it was dead rich. Way rich, with big loads of nitrous this will beat ring lands off pistons faster than you can replace them.
A nitrous motor of any kind always responds to plenum volume
A piston with the top half burned is strictly too much timing
Take plenty of timing out to be safe enough. If you are not detonating its harder to hurt it. Rich tunes are not safer tunes. It's nearly impossible to hurt something running too lean. If you are detonating like crazy and stuff is about to melt, well you might hurt it. But, lack of fuel didn't do this. Detonation got it.
On new stuff start with a really lean hit. Run engine timing as low as possible and with a nice lean tune in carb. Pull plenty of timing. 2 per 50hp (not necessarily the rule today). Another 4 if you have a small quench, less than .040”
To tune from here. Trim fuel pressure to see if you pick up mph. If not put it back. Take another degree of timing out. If it don't pick up put it back.
Add a degree of timing, try again. Key thing is if the mph quits picking up put it back. New plugs pushed in the lanes and cut off at end of pass will give you the best reading.
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j par
Well-hung Member
I think it was you way earlier in this thread that copy the link to moparts and I was reading exactly what you had wrote there about timing...and here's something I read earlier which is good info and along the same lines but with a bit more added info
Nitrous doesn't care what octane rating the fuel is. The TIMING is what matters. The lower the fuel octane, the lower the timing you run.
Nitrous drastically increases the efficiency of the motor, by creating a quicker and cleaner burn. The quicker and cleaner the burn, the less spark lead the motor needs. No different than a motor with poor heads needing 40* of timing to run hard and when you put a better head on it, then it only needs 32* to run hard. You have made the motor more efficient. Timing does NOT make power. Timing is only when you light the fire in the hole in an attempt to have a complete burn by about 15* ATDC. When you think about it, advanced timing is fighting what you are trying to do. The sooner you light it, the more the motor has to overcome in the increasing cylinder pressure of lighting the fire early. In a perfect world, the closer to TDC you could light the fire and burn it completely by 15 after, the more power you could make by freeing the motor up. Unfortunately engines are just not THAT efficient yet. Don't put timing in until it slows down and run the max you can. Pull timing OUT until it slows down. If it runs the same at 36* as it does at 40*, the latter is doing you no good and only increases your chances of pre-ignition.
TIMING is what destroys nitrous motors NOT lean. With enough timing out, you can't get one lean enough to hurt it. It will just be down on power, like any other vehicle that is lean. No fuel, no power.
Too many are under the impression that timing MAKES power, it does not. Timing, or spark lead is just where you light the fire based on the efficiency of your engine to get a complete burn. The combination is what makes power, NOT how much timing you run in it.
The "old school" way rich tunes seemed to stand more timing, simply because you were not making near the power you thought you were, because it was dead rich. Way rich, with big loads of nitrous this will beat ring lands off pistons faster than you can replace them.
A nitrous motor of any kind always responds to plenum volume
A piston with the top half burned is strictly too much timing
Take plenty of timing out to be safe enough. If you are not detonating its harder to hurt it. Rich tunes are not safer tunes. It's nearly impossible to hurt something running too lean. If you are detonating like crazy and stuff is about to melt, well you might hurt it. But, lack of fuel didn't do this. Detonation got it.
On new stuff start with a really lean hit. Run engine timing as low as possible and with a nice lean tune in carb. Pull plenty of timing. 2 per 50hp (not necessarily the rule today). Another 4 if you have a small quench, less than .040”
To tune from here. Trim fuel pressure to see if you pick up mph. If not put it back. Take another degree of timing out. If it don't pick up put it back.
Add a degree of timing, try again. Key thing is if the mph quits picking up put it back. New plugs pushed in the lanes and cut off at end of pass will give you the best reading.
I like what you telling me about creeping up on the tune and that was kind of my goal. Right now hopefully Wednesday the weather will be nice enough and I'll be able to get these carburetors in tune or start finding out where my baseline is at.
I'm working today and it should pan out to be enough to order my nitrous plates and a couple other houses and fittings that I need to complete the first half of my shut up. I'm just hoping that I don't have to make any major changes to the carburetor and end up buying Jets, metering Rods, Springs, or squirt nozzles LOL which could suck up my budget....
I just bought and calibrated I knew O2 sensor for my wideband and hoping I see some of the same numbers I did before I took the Edelbrocks off..
Yeah, certain info is worth keeping, some not so, I think you got a good handle on this now and reckon you will have some good safe results. Shame back in the day we ran things way rich, I could've got in the 10's with my 340 Cuda easy and with less of a shot, thats progress and knowledge.
j par
Well-hung Member
This might be a good time to reiterate I'm not trying to seek a certain time at the track but, more interested in learning how to use it safely is goal number one...
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
j par
Well-hung Member
When in April? I'll have my booth at the track the second third and fourth..
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
j par
Well-hung Member
I think I would like to look at a timing controller.. I like the idea of retarding the timing just during the nitrous hit.. especially if I only plan to hit it for a couple seconds here or there.. I'm not sure if I like the idea of being 6 degrees down on timing three-quarters of my run...
I looked at the MSD but I'm not sure if this other one is the same thing? What damage do you need to buy two different units it looks like?
I looked at the MSD but I'm not sure if this other one is the same thing? What damage do you need to buy two different units it looks like?
j par
Well-hung Member
Head is spinning again..lol...
I wonder how many ways I can manipulate the timing with the MSD...
I have the six Al with the built-in adjustable rev limiter and a two step as well. If I'm not mistaken the two-step works but interrupting the white wire for the tachometer which is also hooked to it.. I wonder if this also hooks to the white wire or to the distributor or to the coil?...
And if it's something I can hook in a series with the nitrous switch or is it something I have to adjust without being able to bring in on a trigger..?
I wonder how many ways I can manipulate the timing with the MSD...
I have the six Al with the built-in adjustable rev limiter and a two step as well. If I'm not mistaken the two-step works but interrupting the white wire for the tachometer which is also hooked to it.. I wonder if this also hooks to the white wire or to the distributor or to the coil?...
And if it's something I can hook in a series with the nitrous switch or is it something I have to adjust without being able to bring in on a trigger..?
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
LOL. I have multiple boxes in the shop with retards.
I'm going to use at least one, maybe two even though I'm N/A.
I'm going to use at least one, maybe two even though I'm N/A.
j par
Well-hung Member
What are you trying to say here? Ma Na Na, I have some and you don't? Or I can use different retard boxes all in conjunction with each other?...
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
No, I'm just saying if you want to try a box with a retard built in, I'll bring one over when I come next week, or I can bring it over in April.
N/A naturally aspirated.
You should only need one box, or one seperate retard box.
Cope
Fusing with fire
weedburner
Well-Known Member
Here's one of the hand drawn schematics I keep on my phone of my nitrous system's current configuration.
MSD 8969 digital window switch
MSD 8982 start/retard control
The retard box takes pills, I prefer that to the dial type adjustment that might accidentally get "adjusted".
The system automatically retards whenever the nitrous solenoids actually get energized.
On the left side is the 3 position switch that arms the nitrous...
...bottom position- full advance / nitrous off
...middle position- retard on / nitrous off
...top position- retard automatic / nitrous armed
Advance in the distributor is locked, I use the middle position to pull some timing manually if the engine needs to be calmed down a bit for low speed driving.
The little box marker "timer delay" is for the nitrous hit delay. This pic only shows the switched contact part of the relay, I have another pic that shows the actual wiring of that box.
Grant
MSD 8969 digital window switch
MSD 8982 start/retard control
The retard box takes pills, I prefer that to the dial type adjustment that might accidentally get "adjusted".
The system automatically retards whenever the nitrous solenoids actually get energized.
On the left side is the 3 position switch that arms the nitrous...
...bottom position- full advance / nitrous off
...middle position- retard on / nitrous off
...top position- retard automatic / nitrous armed
Advance in the distributor is locked, I use the middle position to pull some timing manually if the engine needs to be calmed down a bit for low speed driving.
The little box marker "timer delay" is for the nitrous hit delay. This pic only shows the switched contact part of the relay, I have another pic that shows the actual wiring of that box.
Grant
I would say one thing, if your@10.5+ static, have a tight quench, big CP and your going to run the fuel jet clean as in 5>7 sizes SMALLER than the N jet and run 93 pump, perhaps you should go for all these retard boxes, if not, 2 deg retard with square jetting for up to a 150 shot@6>7psi and for how long your going to hit it with using 110 fuel as you mention....you don't need to spend $$$ on all this stuff, important to have if you plan on going up to 200>250+ shots....Timing is what kills motors yes, but were talking big 250+ shots, it all depends on the combo, how you run the stuff, as you know. I'm not saying its not a good idea, it is but for you its overkill in my opinion at your level, get carried away with it all and its there I guess is the only thing you can say.
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j par
Well-hung Member
Simply put I have a very addictive personality... That's why I don't do drugs or drink alcohol... "I used to do a little but a little wouldn't do it and a little got more and more" guns n roses....lol...
I'm going to order the 70011 Edelbrock cheater plates and I believe they come with 50 75 and 100 Jets. If I'm not mistaken they are square.. when I talked to Mike thermos she talked about the nitrous Jets being about .004 or so bigger...
My concern is being 2 or 4° retarded for 3/4 of my run and only 1/4 of my run using the nitrous. it would seem to me that I would lose power for three-quarters of the time and barely make it up on the 1/4 time I'm using it?..
j par
Well-hung Member
$$$$$$$....
j par
Well-hung Member
BRING IT...
How does it work? What kind is it? Is it going to be compatible with my six Al? I have the one with the built-in adjustable rev limiter...
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