1970 Dart starting issues- key will not crank now

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Mgc340

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Hello,

I am beyond frustrated with my cursed 1970 Dart. This thing has fought me the entire way. The car has 65,000 original miles and started life as a 6 cylinder. When I bought the car the motor was removed and the v8 k member was already installed.

I had a battery draw and found the horn relay was stuck so that was a easy fix. I also replaced the starter relay at this time as well.

It currently has a 408 stroker with Eddy heads and Air gap intake. Holley Sniper delivers the fuel. MSD 6Al box with a MSD distributor. Transmission is A 904.

So when I started the car with this motor a few months ago I did this with a carburetor on it so we could break in the cam. Having never run a Holley Sniper before I wanted to make sure the motor would start for the break in. I noticed as I would crank it to start building oil pressure and to start it, its like the cranking would fade away or something would get hot. I ended up jumping the two lugs out on the starter relay and the car fired right up.

So we broke the motor in. I installed the Holley Sniper unit. Went to start the car for the maiden voyage and the starter cranked with the key at first then faded away to the point where it hasn't turned over with the key since. I wanted to drive this thing bad so I decided well I'll jump it at the starter relay again so I can at least drive it around the block. I go to jump it and the starter itself is fried.

I replaced the starter and jump it at the starter relay and it fired right up. I drove it around and everything was great. Shut it off and nothing with the key but I could jump the starter relay and it does still start.

Prior to the engine install I repainted the engine compartment so I unplugged the bulk head. Could this be burned up? I need to check it tonight.

I did think maybe the Neutral safety switch was giving me fits so I by-passed it and I still could not get the car to crank with the key. I tried starting it in different positions with no luck.

I have not been able to find a fusible link to check and see if it blew?

I did have the steering column out and I replaced the turn signal switch. When I put it all back together at first all my lights worked. Now my brake lights or turn signals don't work.

The crazy thing is this thing would crank and crank with the key many times through out building this car. It's like something burned up?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks, Mark
 
Bad grounds will plague you to the end of time. Sounds like the steering column isn't grounded. There is a little wire with 2 star eyelets everyone let's fall off when they remove the colums. So check that.
Also a ground up on the radiator support by the horn. Check that. The terminal that is a 45 degree angle on the starter relay is the NSS terminal. Check that.
And bulkhead are Terrible on these cars. Yes you can inspect those too.
Good things to check. Even seen battery terminals loose over the years
 
When everything goes South I go back and recheck everything that I had done recently.
Yes, verify that the bulk head connector is coupled together properly, maybe one or more of the male/female joints did not seat properly and got pushed back, look it over closely.
Check that the ignition switch connector did not get dislodged, recheck what was done on the turn signal repair,,
If you do not find the issue, it is time to get a FSM and a multi meter and check the circuits.
If you have not done that before do not be intimidated. Folks here will guide you. A cheap HF multimeter is all you need.
 
Johnny Mac said:
Bad grounds will plague you to the end of time. Sounds like the steering column isn't grounded. There is a little wire with 2 star eyelets everyone let's fall off when they remove the colums. So check that.
Also a ground up on the radiator support by the horn. Check that. The terminal that is a 45 degree angle on the starter relay is the NSS terminal. Check that.
And bulkhead are Terrible on these cars. Yes you can inspect those too.
Good things to check. Even seen battery terminals loose over the years
Click to expand...

I'm going to check all this stuff over tonight again. Here is a possibility.... There's two wires the connect to the starter. The small wire goes to the main lug on the starter relay and the larger wire goes to the positive post on the battery.... I spliced those both cause they were not long enough. I soldered them and shrink wrapped them. Could this be the issue? It's been in the back of my mind this whole time.
 
Mgc340 said:
I'm going to check all this stuff over tonight again. Here is a possibility.... There's two wires the connect to the starter. The small wire goes to the main lug on the starter relay and the larger wire goes to the positive post on the battery.... I spliced those both cause they were not long enough. I soldered them and shrink wrapped them. Could this be the issue? It's been in the back of my mind this whole time.
Click to expand...
my68barracuda said:
When everything goes South I go back and recheck everything that I had done recently.
Yes, verify that the bulk head connector is coupled together properly, maybe one or more of the male/female joints did not seat properly and got pushed back, look it over closely.
Check that the ignition switch connector did not get dislodged, recheck what was done on the turn signal repair,,
If you do not find the issue, it is time to get a FSM and a multi meter and check the circuits.
If you have not done that before do not be intimidated. Folks here will guide you. A cheap HF multimeter is all you need.
Click to expand...

I do have a multi meter and a test light. I will check this stuff over first and see if I get lucky.
 
Bad negative cable, or bad ground, or the main power feed through the ammeter. You could have just enough to move the meter, but not start.
 
You need to make voltage checks. Draw it out on a piece of paper. The path for the main starter current is From battery NEG post----NEG battery clamp---------cable---------engine block------starter bolted to block------through starter-------out on "big' starter stud------through main POS cable-------POS cable clamp---------to battery pos post.

You can clamp one multimeter probe somewhere, (or have someone hold it) say, to the battery NEG post clamp. Now while jumpering the starter, probe the battery POS post and read the meter. You want at least 10V or higher. Now you want to read voltage drop. Again, with the probe clipped to battery NEG post clamp, stab the remaining probe into ta good ground on the engine such as carb bolt. Crank again, read voltage drop and note. If you can get to it, stab your probe into the starter and read it there, the starter motor shell. This reading should be very low, a couple tenths of a volt or less

Now read the positive drop. Clip one probe to say, the battery POS post clamp. Stab the other probe into the starter "big' stud, crank, and read. Again no more than say, .2 (2/10's) of a volt

Measuring some of this stuff alone can be a challenge. Again first with one proble clipped to the NEG battery clamp, stab the probe right into the top of the NEG post. Crank and read. Should be very little reading, almost zero. Do same for POS post and clamp

Now check the starter relay. Clip one meter probe to the starter 'small' stud. Clip the other post to the starter relay 'square" terminal. Jumper the relay. What does it read? Should be almost zero

Now hook meter to a good ground, battery NEG clamp. Connect remaining probe to the relay 'square' terminal, and crank using the key. Should have 'same as battery' volltage. if not, move meter to relay "big' stud. Crank and read. If that terminal stays 'same as battery' the relay CONTACTS are bad, or the relay is not pulling in

Maybe it is not getting coil voltage. Disconnect the transmission neutral safety wire. Ground that flag terminal on the relay with an alligator clip. Connect a jumper wire to the remaining relay flag terminal. Make certain the car is "out of gear."

Engage the relay, and double check voltage at "big stud" and at 'square" terminal. If "big' battery relay stud reads 'same as battery" and if 'square stud' is low voltage and or starter will not engage, replace the relay.

Maybe it is not getting "start" signal from the key. leave the neutral safety grounding jumper connected. Replace the yellow 'start" wire connection. Crank with the key. If it does not crank, measure (back probe) the "yellow" start wire connector. If it is low, say, 10V or lower, you likely have an intermittent in that path to the ignition switch, which means bulkhead connector, ignition switch connector near steering column, or a bad igniton switch itself
 
Let's sum this up, possible problems No particular order

1....Low "yellow" start wire voltage with key in crank. Bad ignition switch, bad switch connector, bad bulkhead connector

2....poor ground at relay neutral safety switch. Bad safety switch, bad switch adjustment (transmission linkage) or bad wire connections

3....Bad starter relay. Contacts are corroded/ burnt, or junk/ corrosion in relay prevents proper movement, or some problem with the relay magnetic coil

4....Sometimes the wire from the start relay 'square' connection goes bad down near the starter solenoid. But you say you can jumper the solenoid and it cranks OK. So that wire should be OK

These are a simple circuit and work well. We can walk you through this
 
67Dart273 said:
You need to make voltage checks. Draw it out on a piece of paper. The path for the main starter current is From battery NEG post----NEG battery clamp---------cable---------engine block------starter bolted to block------through starter-------out on "big' starter stud------through main POS cable-------POS cable clamp---------to battery pos post.

You can clamp one multimeter probe somewhere, (or have someone hold it) say, to the battery NEG post clamp. Now while jumpering the starter, probe the battery POS post and read the meter. You want at least 10V or higher. Now you want to read voltage drop. Again, with the probe clipped to battery NEG post clamp, stab the remaining probe into ta good ground on the engine such as carb bolt. Crank again, read voltage drop and note. If you can get to it, stab your probe into the starter and read it there, the starter motor shell. This reading should be very low, a couple tenths of a volt or less

Now read the positive drop. Clip one probe to say, the battery POS post clamp. Stab the other probe into the starter "big' stud, crank, and read. Again no more than say, .2 (2/10's) of a volt

Measuring some of this stuff alone can be a challenge. Again first with one proble clipped to the NEG battery clamp, stab the probe right into the top of the NEG post. Crank and read. Should be very little reading, almost zero. Do same for POS post and clamp

Now check the starter relay. Clip one meter probe to the starter 'small' stud. Clip the other post to the starter relay 'square" terminal. Jumper the relay. What does it read? Should be almost zero

Now hook meter to a good ground, battery NEG clamp. Connect remaining probe to the relay 'square' terminal, and crank using the key. Should have 'same as battery' volltage. if not, move meter to relay "big' stud. Crank and read. If that terminal stays 'same as battery' the relay CONTACTS are bad, or the relay is not pulling in

Maybe it is not getting coil voltage. Disconnect the transmission neutral safety wire. Ground that flag terminal on the relay with an alligator clip. Connect a jumper wire to the remaining relay flag terminal. Make certain the car is "out of gear."

Engage the relay, and double check voltage at "big stud" and at 'square" terminal. If "big' battery relay stud reads 'same as battery" and if 'square stud' is low voltage and or starter will not engage, replace the relay.

Maybe it is not getting "start" signal from the key. leave the neutral safety grounding jumper connected. Replace the yellow 'start" wire connection. Crank with the key. If it does not crank, measure (back probe) the "yellow" start wire connector. If it is low, say, 10V or lower, you likely have an intermittent in that path to the ignition switch, which means bulkhead connector, ignition switch connector near steering column, or a bad igniton switch itself
Click to expand...
67Dart273 said:
Let's sum this up, possible problems No particular order

1....Low "yellow" start wire voltage with key in crank. Bad ignition switch, bad switch connector, bad bulkhead connector

2....poor ground at relay neutral safety switch. Bad safety switch, bad switch adjustment (transmission linkage) or bad wire connections

3....Bad starter relay. Contacts are corroded/ burnt, or junk/ corrosion in relay prevents proper movement, or some problem with the relay magnetic coil

4....Sometimes the wire from the start relay 'square' connection goes bad down near the starter solenoid. But you say you can jumper the solenoid and it cranks OK. So that wire should be OK

These are a simple circuit and work well. We can walk you through this
Click to expand...


Thanks for the good stuff here to check. I'm going to get some help this weekend hopefully from my dad or brother. I'll check this stuff out and get back to you guys on what I find!

Thanks again!
 
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