Long valves on W2's with .600 lift?

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and they get a break due to the al heads and you are at 370 vs 410
we have to be able to get it all to the ground
looking at that video it appears that you need good throttle control/ response going around that long tight corner and be able to drive it out of the corner not just mash and go
let me know when to order core
pro style valve job already or who does the touch up or pro valve job after guides
too bad you are so far away or we could do it on the SERDI

cheers
 
Wyrmrider said:
and they get a break due to the al heads and you are at 370 vs 410
we have to be able to get it all to the ground
looking at that video it appears that you need good throttle control/ response going around that long tight corner and be able to drive it out of the corner not just mash and go
let me know when to order core
pro style valve job already or who does the touch up or pro valve job after guides
too bad you are so far away or we could do it on the SERDI

cheers
Click to expand...
I'm having the original builder Baxter Engines install new guides. They will touch up the seats as needed.

I have to see them about using the 6mm/7mm Ti valves I have in stock. Ex NASCAR pieces that need to be cut down to fit the heads. Found a guy in Detroit who does the valve mods. If the cost is reasonable I'll do it. I have the lash caps for the valves too.

I have two sets of these valves...was saving one for a future Gen3 Hemi build but don't have a home for the other 16.

I know it's overkill to use Ti but it may be cheaper in the end even considering the expense of the valve mods.

Tell Jones to order the core... I'm ready.

I'm taking my chassis to a local builder to do the suspension and front crossmber upgrades it needs. I love doing fab work but right now I'm back working four days per week and I'm just too beat to tackle that right now. These guys build dirt and pavement chassis. They have a nice frame table and are expert Craftsmen.
 
I sent mike a note asking if he has a core in stock else contact me and get one ordered
did you fill out his
Circle Track | Jones Cams
with all the recent changes? copy me
on the valves
square notch stem groves / keepers or radial
what's the dia of your valves? LS Size?
LS is popular and relatively inexpensive but the valves are what they are
est valve weights with your TI valves
I mentioned the big beehive spring to see if it's ok with him and how much pressure so we can figure valve length
you said seats cut 1.5 and springs 1.4 more or less
we may still need spring seats- to factor in
Get some sleep
 
Taking advantage of a production oddity, the engine is fitted with a factory Chrysler Lean-Burn distributor.
These distributors featured no advance curve or vacuum advance.
As Robinson puts it: "Coupling the locked-out production distributor with the programmable curve of a MSD 6AL2, is a match made in heaven."

when you fill out that cam form state rod length, maybe piston weight
ALKY
I'd send another copy of the head flows

btw
This cam twisting effect is actually the worst in oval track racing where the engine can experience multiple up/down episodes per lap. That is where you really need a high-caliber crankshaft harmonic dampener!
 
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I have a Fluid Damper that came with the engine. I did fill out the cam info deal and Mike responded via email but that email may have been accidently deleted a couple weeks ago.

I don't have the piston weights just yet...drive over to Huntington Beach and tell Randy @ RaceTec to get busy! He called me about ten days ago to tell me they had the old sample ready to digitize and get started. I know these guys are busy...

I have a good MSD dizzy that was built back when MSD quality was still good. Also have two analog 6T boxes...the old circle track ones that are potted and bulletproof.

My only issue with Mike's cam suggestion is lift... Losing .030 with a 570-ish lift with Mopars wacky pushrod angles isn't going to get it done.
 
Just match up the name you used with the one I used Krooser
He got back to me Sat indicating that he can get a quality core
I sent him a recap from this thread yesterday but can't answer the rpm off the corner question
I asked him to arrange to get the core coming
Is your block tubed?
you running stock length rods -right
heads have a pro valve job when you flowed them? if not they should pick up some
he does have the flows- anyway make sure we re on the same page before grinding-
right now I just want to get the core coming
I would think he would fine tune the cam recommendation with the ti valves etc
I'm more concerned with duration near max lift than chasing max lift and having a pointy cam
BTW little experience with beehives here
I read that they like to be set up to near coil bind but IDK- Mike will know
if so that's different than the "set them up as tall as possible" that I did years ago using interference fit counterwound duals or duals with dampner
perhaps some with racing beehives will chime in
 
I'll tube the block when I get it back from Baxter Engines. Good valve job. Stock length rods. 3.79 crank...387.xxxx cubes. Present springs are 1.950....looking to stay the same.
 
Here's an eye opener...

Saw the cam specs on what these guys are using in their Chevy dirt cars. Granted this is a roller... 421 CI small block.

crower chevy roller specs.jpg


Here's the shop doing my work.

Home Page
 
A real shop
Even on the big monitor that's hard to read
notice 1.7x1.6 rockers
tiny base circle must be a stroker
tough to make those work due to side loading
but one way tofake an inverse radius without actually doing it
notice the lobe separation of 103
I checked- that's half way between IO27 and IC 53 @.050
I can remember using that secret on SBC 30-40 years ago- necessary due to stroke and rod
but see the not that if timing off the intake lobe top icl to use a 101 ICL
shows the asymmetrical nature of the lobe
and why many get screwed up and install their cams retarded by timing off the tip icl
WE have what we have with no roller cam rule and .904 lifter

Isky has no beehive spring suggestion
suggested a spring with about 186 on the seat
must have talked with the wrong guy
I'll go see Ron when back in LA

Evidently they run springs closer to coil bind than I ever did
so selection is important which sets the stem length and groove location
maybe that big tall spring may or may not be the right solution
did you say 5/16 8mm 7mm exactly what are these valves
from what I hear the light weight is nice even at your target rpm
big item missing is off the corner rpm
I'm thinking corner to flagstand is what is going
to move up in the finish results
so
valve stems
rpm off the corner
bead or square locks
gas or alky
I'd let jones pick the springs
It's like blending snake oil
 
Most passing is done off the corner...keep ahead of the crowd by blasting into the turns but the car has to stick. RF must stick...shocks are the key. I have a decent shock guy but I'm not using a $10,000 shock package like many... used is OK and you can buy Ohlins, Integras or the occasional Penske for $300-400 each. Got to get it on the track, and me in the seat, before I think of that.

Off corner revs will be 4-4200 rpm as near as I can figure. Depends on the gear of course. Most guys are spinning their engines 7800-8200...some more.

Right now I have decided to stick with 11/32 valve stems. Baxter is a Manley dealer. 20 grams lighter than the 3/8" intakes. Too late to think about having my Ti valve cut down to fit. I'll keep those for the Eagle-headed Gen3 Hemi I want to experiment with.

If I knew I would be back working full time, last fall I would have had the $$$ to buy a lighter crank (my billet is 63lbs.), used my Pankl 420 gram rods and got the Ti valves done earlier. I don't think having that heavy crank will do me any good even with a much lighter valve train. This season will be a learning experience anyway...

The thing that limits the 360 is the bore size... a 340 would have been better to start with but this 360 had a $1,000 worth of machine work I didn't want to throw away.

I have a BG alky 850 for carburation.

I just bought two used 4.19 ratio steering racks. I have two 3.66 ratio right now but I like to use a bit larger steering wheel and I'd lose too much ratio staying with the 3.66. I can sell the slower racks and be about even $$$-wise.

I have been thinking about making a trip to the shaky side this fall. The wife and I haven't been out there together for over 25 years. I still have family in Riverside county... a few old hot rod buddies to see... and maybe spend a day with you looking at your stuff. Thinking October before the Santa Ana winds blow through... might take Amtrak and take the car along for the trip back home.
 
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does manley make a valve with the same stem dia as your ti valves
If so you could reuse the retainers

I would not loose sleep over .040 bore
now if we were talking 4 1/8 or 4 3/16 4.200 then that would catch my attention

crank strong- you have what you have...pistons lighter?
so what are the critical time points
cam just got moved up if we do not have to modify valves
we need to know the new spring height
will still need retainers, keepers, spring seats
or if doing chassis development start off with the valves you have
single shocks only?


much longer story but we had a fire in the storage garage- till trying to find things and sorting out
there should be room in the inn and I'll leave the light on for you

will they let us run a HEMI or ban it when it wins
someone has had to have tried it
 
IMG_20200223_155346756.jpg
Wyrmrider said:
does manley make a valve with the same stem dia as your ti valves
If so you could reuse the retainers

I would not loose sleep over .040 bore
now if we were talking 4 1/8 or 4 3/16 4.200 then that would catch my attention

crank strong- you have what you have...pistons lighter?
so what are the critical time points
cam just got moved up if we do not have to modify valves
we need to know the new spring height
will still need retainers, keepers, spring seats
or if doing chassis development start off with the valves you have
single shocks only?


much longer story but we had a fire in the storage garage- till trying to find things and sorting out
there should be room in the inn and I'll leave the light on for you

will they let us run a HEMI or ban it when it wins
someone has had to have tried it
Click to expand...

It's a Mopar performance billet crank... 1993 vintage I believe.

Not sure on piston weight but the old Ross were 710 grams IIRC. These will be under 500 I think.

Manley makes a Racemaster intake with the right stem and 2.02 head. Tough to find a 5.140 exhaust... they make a 5.165. Ferarra does not... called Si and they don't have blanks in stock right now. Baxter Engine is a Manley dealer.

Manley makes a 5.165 with a .250 tip... grind it?

Installed spring height is 1.950.

I'll buy new retainers, 7 degree keepers and locks.

I have AFCO twin tube shocks. 7" front-9" rear. Been freshened and revalved. Today most guys run a 6" travel shock on the RF since they use so much travel up there... mine will be a bit less. The high dollar shocks are all monotube.

We use two shocks on the LR...the LRF pins the tire to the track (no spring on that one). Very stiff on compression. It's a single adjustable with a Schrader valve and is pressure adjustable. The other LR will use an 85-100# rate coil over spring...just enough to hold up that corner of the car at rest. Once you hit the gas it's useless.

Our TRACK rules do not ban the Hemi... never mention it. Most sanctions do not allow the two spark plugs and/or the distributor less ignition on an LS... but you can run a crank trigger on a SBC...stupid. The two plug deal goes back to running two magnetos something no one in dirt lates would run anyway. Obsolete rules.

They fear the Mopar's so much in the lower classes that you often can run 220 Dart heads but can't run 40 year old W-2 heads. Most call them WZ heads... a misprint that is in a hundred rulebooks. Recently I saw a rule book that outlaws those unbeatable J heads... give me a break.

I'm putting a Studebaker logo on my valve covers... let the Chevy boys figure it out.
studebaker-77550597.jpg
 
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I was thinking that the current 3/8 exhausts are probably still as light as the new 11/32 intakes
you might just run them
 
The oil filter recess cover plate needs the holes through it to have at least the area near that of a 1/2" single hole and they do not.
Drill the holes in a 6 hole plate to 5/16" or add 4 more 9/32" holes holes to a 4 hole plate; 8 holes total.

Maybe drill a small .031" hole in the rear oil gallery plug in front of the distributor gear for positive oil to the gear. {Krooser- I usually did something like this}
These users liked this post by: Walter R. Malik
 
Krooser said:
Got em all weighed... I'll post that info Tonite.
Click to expand...
3/8" 2.02 intake 5.140 length 140 grams

3/8" 1.60 exhaust 5.140 length 135 grams

11/32" 2.02 intake 5.140 length 125 grams

11/32" 1.60 5.165 length (close as I could find) 110 grams

Here's the specs on the ex-NASCAR valves I have...

6mm 2.15 intake 6.86 length 75 grams (titanium)

7mm 1.60 exhaust 6.86 length 65 grams (titanium)
 
And now a message from our sponsors
FW by Wyrmrider

jonescams@bellsouth.net
Mon 3/2/2020 7:58 AM
I asked Krooser to fill out a cam recommendation form, from my website, but I have not received it.

Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs
JRC Technologies Group
Denver, NC (704)489-2449
www.jonescams.com

I sent the valve choices and weights, spring height as 1.95 including spring locator cup
I said flow was with current 3/8 stem valves
better attach the flow again
 
Wyrmrider said:
And now a message from our sponsors
FW by Wyrmrider

jonescams@bellsouth.net
Mon 3/2/2020 7:58 AM
I asked Krooser to fill out a cam recommendation form, from my website, but I have not received it.

Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs
JRC Technologies Group
Denver, NC (704)489-2449
www.jonescams.com

I sent the valve choices and weights, spring height as 1.95 including spring locator cup
I said flow was with current 3/8 stem valves
better attach the flow again
Click to expand...
Did it tonite... been busy working!!!
 
Forward of an e-mail I got from Mike basically asking me to get a hold of Krooser
re: cam grind for his w2 headed late model
Krooser is going to lighter valves so we have to rethink springs etc
trying to find a lighter exhaust 5.140 x 1.6 than last years Manley 3/8 stem necked down pro flow of 135 grams
we have to do guides so any stem will do
so far it's run last years 135 gm valve or cut down the +200 long sbc 11/32 11. gm valve
The Ti valves on hand require bead locks so have a longer turn around time to cut down unless anyone knows of a quick - quality shop
IMHO we might be able to get away with the 135 gm valve as the exhaust can have a milder lobe than the intake
although the cam will be for 4000 to 7200 and an endurance cam not a drag race cam
we can't be tearing down the motor and changing springs every week
any suggestions appreciated
current plan is for PAC beehives with the lighter retainer than last seasons Crower tripples took
would consider PSI PAC Ferrera no junk for springs maybe some Associated
Rumble- you have any spring or valve suggestions?

Krooser's been working 14 hour days give him some love here
 
Sorry Wyrm.... I’m a bit of a spectator at this point.
I have no idea what cam is being used and I would start with the manufacturer spring spring spec first. Dyno it with a second spring on hand that may perform better for the application at hand. Be it there for more high RPMs, early power fall off issues, valve train instability, perhaps beehive?

Again, I don’t know.
Again I’m really just a spectator at this point.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Sorry Wyrm.... I’m a bit of a spectator at this point.
I have no idea what cam is being used and I would start with the manufacturer spring spring spec first. Dyno it with a second spring on hand that may perform better for the application at hand. Be it there for more high RPMs, early power fall off issues, valve train instability, perhaps beehive?

Again, I don’t know.
Again I’m really just a spectator at this point.
Click to expand...
Jim and I are more than spectators and WE dont know what cam is being used!

I'm trying to convince Mike Jones to grind one with more than .570 lift.
 
With a flat tappet cam, the max lift is limited by the lifter diameter and the duration.
If you push the rate too far, the profile runs off the edge of the lifter(at which point you have instant failure).

.570 lift for 250@.050 is using up most of a .904 lifter.
A Howard’s .904 SFT profile in the 250@.050 range would be up around .580 lift.
There might be a tad more lift available, but it won’t likely be a very reliable combo.

For the most part........ either change the rockers, run a roller, add some duration(with the same rate of lift, more duration = more lift), or learn to live with it.
 
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