Keep hearing about frame twist with 440s

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Vamisk

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Is this a myth? Credible people like Steve Dulcich have told me frame twisting just doesn't happen with mild engines. (i have a lukewarm motorhome 440) Everyone keeps telling me a 440 will twist the K member and body due to weigh and power etc but the 440 isn't much heavier than a 360 and barely makes any more power than a 440.

I could understand drag engines but can anyone share their experience with me?
 
Yeah, it'll twist the frame. If you wrap the car around a tree or telephone pole.
 
People seem to think that these are fragile cars and i don't know why. People keep telling me that Dusters are unibody which doesn't sound right at all.
 
If the tires are spinning your probably not going to flex the body. It's when you hook up, that's when things start happening. My 76 sport with pinion snubber, 513 spool, 5500 stall converter, 340, twisted the body and cracked the windshield and the cowl right below the VIN number on the dash.
 
If the tires are spinning your probably not going to flex the body. It's when you hook up, that's when things start happening. My 76 sport with pinion snubber, 513 spool, 5500 stall converter, 340, twisted the body and cracked the windshield and the cowl right below the VIN number on the dash.
So i really have nothing to worry about with a low power engine? Not racing with this car or anything, just driving it.


All A bodies are unibody construction.

No seperate frame like under a truck

Oh okay. That's probably why it was actually lighter than my 2014 Toyota :eek:
 
Is this a myth? Credible people like Steve Dulcich have told me frame twisting just doesn't happen with mild engines. (i have a lukewarm motorhome 440) Everyone keeps telling me a 440 will twist the K member and body due to weigh and power etc but the 440 isn't much heavier than a 360 and barely makes any more power than a 440.

I could understand drag engines but can anyone share their experience with me?
a 440 weighs quite a bit more than a stock 360. 670 lbs for the 440, 550 for the 360. Stock for stock of course. Powerwise, yeah, the low compression 440s aren't hot shots by any means but are stout enough. especially if youre car is weakened by rusted out floors or whatever. Will your's twist? who knows. I'm not Steve Dulcich, he knows way more than me, but I'll say this, have someone jack up a corner of your duster with a floorjack as you watch the door gaps closely, I'd bet you're gonna see the flex in these things just from that.

There is a cheap and simple way to eliminate the risk all together, subframe connectors are fairly cheap and straight forward to install. have it done in a weekend.
 
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Take that 440 you have and install an aluminum water pump housing, and aluminum intake manifold. Get rid of the cast iron pieces. That should lighten it up a bit and get it closer to the 360 weight. Aluminum heads will lighten it up even further.
 
Subframe ties and torque boxes will make it solid. Look on US Cartool website. Thay have a lot of chassis stiffening pieces.
 
What a lot of people don't realize is that a 4 door is probably one of the strongest bodies that you will find.
Of course, I am talking about the one with the big post between the doors.
Most people don't like them though.
The worst would be a convertible.......
 
What a lot of people don't realize is that a 4 door is probably one of the strongest bodies that you will find.
Of course, I am talking about the one with the big post between the doors.
Most people don't like them though.
The worst would be a convertible.......
Best sleeper out there too. A peeling paint 1969 dart 270 more door 440/4speed/8.75 minitubbed combo with full wheel covers would the cats meow.
 
There are different schools of thought on this. On one side, you have the old school guys like Uncle Tony or the local restoration shop who bent up my exhaust system who don't think you need chassis reinforcement unless you have a Hemi and a manual transmission with slicks. On the other side, you have the protouring guys who don't even think the chassis nor even the torsion bar suspension is acceptable at all...I think either extreme is probably objectively wrong.

These cars were mass produced and built to a minimum standard to handle road conditions, powertrains and expected longevity of their era. A typical car from 1964 to 1976 would be long off the road before 120k miles. IMO, it's important to keep that in mind and to base some forgiveness on that. So when you see that the font and rear subframes are only connected by the rocker panels and floor boards, it makes sense. The body flex was acceptable for the time, would last still longer than the expected lifespan of the car and IIRC it was possibly even desired as it supposedly improved ride quality. Regardless, this design worked when you ran on 14x5" bias ply tires, had a 145 hp slant six running through a gentle shifting automatic.

It's also worth noting that convertibles and performance variants had (or generally had) torque boxes to reinforce the structure while basic transportation appliance versions did not. Obviously, it was recognized back then that the basic A Body platform could benefit from strengthening.

These cars weren't supposed to last this long. The engineers of the Abody architecture would never have imagined that we would sitting in front of personal computers debating the need to reinforce their chassis deign more than half a century into the future...never mind doing this on a tiny rectangle computer while we sit on the toilet. :D

IMO, what also makes this debate difficult is that these cars have a minimum of 44 years and God only knows how many miles at this point...there's wild variation in the results of these years and mileage depending on where they were kept, if/how they were looked after, how they were driven, etc. Second, there were variations in how well built these cars were from the factory. One car would often have better welds than the next within the same run.

Plus, there are at least two different wheelbases for the A-body, and year to year changes. There were also convertibles, coupes, sedans, two door post and wagons each of which puts different stresses on their respective chassis.

Finally, there are different standards as to what is stiff/strong enough. If your only goal is to "not break your windshield while running a 440," subframe connectors would probably do the trick. If you want to preserve chasis rigidity to improve handling and responsiveness, you'll proably also want torque boxes, inner fender braces, K Member reinforcement/improved welds, steering box mount reinforcements, radiator support, etc.

For the sake of the OP: at a minimum, Assuming all else is in working order, I would add factory style torque boxes to a big block swap car. The original engineers even recognized how important they are.

Personally, I want all of the strength that I can get so I can just enjoy the car without worrying about stressing the chassis. Plus, I want all of my cars to handle predictably and feel good going around a corner, even if they're not sucking the carbon fiber off of McLarens. With my Dart, started with suspension changes and immediately noticed that after adding stiff shocks, torsion bars, heavy duty leaf springs, sway bars, a quicker ratio steering box, etc, the flex in the chassis became more obvious and made the car feel sloppier than I liked.

So I added subframe connectors and torque boxes and the difference was immediately obvious. The car is much less "jiggly" and it just feels a bit more solid all around. Is it "stiff"? no... but I cannot imagine driving one of these cars aggressively on modern radials without reinforcement, big block or no.


All A bodies are unibody construction.
False. General Motors A Body platform cars are body-on-frame. :D
 
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I've always put subframe connectors on my cars, but most of them were street/strip cars. My bracket car definitely has connectors under it because of the higher HP & the fact that it does hook.
 
Considering what people have told me and knowing my luck i'll just get subframe connectors and torque boxes. They're not too expensive, plus my floors have been rotted out and repaired poorly so it's worth it just to ensure that the car won't go all lame on me.
 
People seem to think that these are fragile cars and i don't know why. People keep telling me that Dusters are unibody which doesn't sound right at all.

The people you are talking to are idiots. Find a new crowd to hang with. Yeah, if you're makin 600 plus HP and 600 plus torque and run slicks at the strip with no frame connectors you might tweak something outta shape. You might not. You probably won't. I'd consider frame connectors an absolute requirement for a big block powered A body anyway, so there goes the possibility of twist. I'd use (and am going to) the US Cartool connectors, because they install and become part of the frame, floorpan and cross member. IMO, they are the best connectors out there and worth every penny.
 
People seem to think that these are fragile cars and i don't know why. People keep telling me that Dusters are unibody which doesn't sound right at all.

You need to figure out how to tell the difference between people who know what they are talking about and those who don't.
 
Considering what people have told me and knowing my luck i'll just get subframe connectors and torque boxes. They're not too expensive, plus my floors have been rotted out and repaired poorly so it's worth it just to ensure that the car won't go all lame on me.
You should also consider repairing the floors correctly, they are also a structural part of the car.
 
There are different schools of thought on this. On one side, you have the old school guys like Uncle Tony or the local restoration shop who bent up my exhaust system who don't think you need chassis reinforcement unless you have a Hemi and a manual transmission with slicks. On the other side, you have the protouring guys who don't even think the chassis nor even the torsion bar suspension is acceptable at all...I think either extreme is probably objectively wrong.

These cars were mass produced and built to a minimum standard to handle road conditions, powertrains and expected longevity of their era. A typical car from 1964 to 1976 would be long off the road before 120k miles. IMO, it's important to keep that in mind and to base some forgiveness on that. So when you see that the font and rear subframes are only connected by the rocker panels and floor boards, it makes sense. The body flex was acceptable for the time, would last still longer than the expected lifespan of the car and IIRC it was possibly even desired as it supposedly improved ride quality. Regardless, this design worked when you ran on 14x5" bias ply tires, had a 145 hp slant six running through a gentle shifting automatic.

It's also worth noting that convertibles and performance variants had (or generally had) torque boxes to reinforce the structure while basic transportation appliance versions did not. Obviously, it was recognized back then that the basic A Body platform could benefit from strengthening.

These cars weren't supposed to last this long. The engineers of the Abody architecture would never have imagined that we would sitting in front of personal computers debating the need to reinforce their chassis deign more than half a century into the future...never mind doing this on a tiny rectangle computer while we sit on the toilet. :D

IMO, what also makes this debate difficult is that these cars have a minimum of 44 years and God only knows how many miles at this point...there's wild variation in the results of these years and mileage depending on where they were kept, if/how they were looked after, how they were driven, etc. Second, there were variations in how well built these cars were from the factory. One car would often have better welds than the next within the same run.

Plus, there are at least two different wheelbases for the A-body, and year to year changes. There were also convertibles, coupes, sedans, two door post and wagons each of which puts different stresses on their respective chassis.

Finally, there are different standards as to what is stiff/strong enough. If your only goal is to "not break your windshield while running a 440," subframe connectors would probably do the trick. If you want to preserve chasis rigidity to improve handling and responsiveness, you'll proably also want torque boxes, inner fender braces, K Member reinforcement/improved welds, steering box mount reinforcements, radiator support, etc.

For the sake of the OP: at a minimum, Assuming all else is in working order, I would add factory style torque boxes to a big block swap car. The original engineers even recognized how important they are.

Personally, I want all of the strength that I can get so I can just enjoy the car without worrying about stressing the chassis. Plus, I want all of my cars to handle predictably and feel good going around a corner, even if they're not sucking the carbon fiber off of McLarens. With my Dart, started with suspension changes and immediately noticed that after adding stiff shocks, torsion bars, heavy duty leaf springs, sway bars, a quicker ratio steering box, etc, the flex in the chassis became more obvious and made the car feel sloppier than I liked.

So I added subframe connectors and torque boxes and the difference was immediately obvious. The car is much less "jiggly" and it just feels a bit more solid all around. Is it "stiff"? no... but I cannot imagine driving one of these cars aggressively on modern radials without reinforcement, big block or no.



False. General Motors A Body platform cars are body-on-frame. :D

I watched Uncle Tony’s video about chassis reinforcement. He may know a ton of stuff, but his information on metal fatigue and chassis reinforcement is completely wrong. Like painfully wrong.

As for pro touring guys not liking torsion bars, only the ones that don’t actually understand suspension. Show me a guy that thinks coilovers of any kind are the best and I’ll show you a guy that doesn’t understand suspension theory or design. Torsion bars are great if you understand how to set up your suspension to use them for your intended application.

And yes, every single one of these cars will benefit from torque boxes and subframe connectors (of any kind).

Considering what people have told me and knowing my luck i'll just get subframe connectors and torque boxes. They're not too expensive, plus my floors have been rotted out and repaired poorly so it's worth it just to ensure that the car won't go all lame on me.

Fix your floors first. These are unibody cars, and the floor pan in an integral part of the chassis. Adding subframe connectors will not make up for a poorly repaired floor pan.
 
I have had more than a few used! 440 B and E cars. I have no idea how bad they we abused. I had some 4 speed B bodies that some had twist others not. I don't remember any twist to the 4-5 440-6 V code E bodies, but all were Auto but 1, if I remember.
 
Make sure that car is jacked and leveled to square before swapping a floorpan and doing subframe connectors. If it's not level and you install them it will stay crooked.
 
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