Ladder bars..??..

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That could eliminate the binding, but i'd want to see more before saying all would be good. Ladders turn the housing into one giant anti-roll bar, those axle brackets might not be strong enough depending on how you use them.

Grant
 
weedburner said:
That could eliminate the binding, but i'd want to see more before saying all would be good. Ladders turn the housing into one giant anti-roll bar, those axle brackets might not be strong enough depending on how you use them.

Grant
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Kind of had in mind something like what was in this video that 318 showed in post 10...
 
yellow rose said:
Actually, the axle housing moves (rotates) and that’s what the slot is for. The spring doesn’t move, but it does get shorter with more separation and longer with under compression. The length of the spring front eye center line and the center line of the front mount of the ladder bar are two different lengths and that’s why you need the housing floater. It allows the housing to rotate to compensate for the two different arcs of the spring and ladder bar.
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I was thinking the opposite as the car rises the front of the ladder bar would move away from its front point and when the suspension collapses down it would shove forward?...
 
j par said:
I was thinking the opposite as the car rises the front of the ladder bar would move away from its front point and when the suspension collapses down it would shove forward?...
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I didn’t word that too good. As the axle moves through it’s travel it moves in an arc. It will follow the arc of the ladder bar and the spring with its shorter mounting point would bind if the axle can’t can’t rotate and move about the locating pin.

And don’t forget what Grant said. The ladder bar system effectively acts like a giant anti-roll bar. So the axle housing can’t roll rotate, which isn’t all that bad a thing at launch, but it can cause some issues in the gear changes with a clutch.
 
yellow rose said:
I didn’t word that too good. As the axle moves through it’s travel it moves in an arc. It will follow the arc of the ladder bar and the spring with its shorter mounting point would bind if the axle can’t can’t rotate and move about the locating pin.

And don’t forget what Grant said. The ladder bar system effectively acts like a giant anti-roll bar. So the axle housing can’t roll rotate, which isn’t all that bad a thing at launch, but it can cause some issues in the gear changes with a clutch.
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What are those gear change issues?..
 
j par said:
What are those gear change issues?..
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With a stick, every time you unload and then load the chassis in the gear change, you cause the axle to do what it does, which is drive the drivers side tire into the ground and pick up the passenger side tire. That’s called axle roll rotation.

If it’s an automatic or even a clutchless box that doesn’t unload the chassis like that, you can use an anti-roll bar which is effectively what the ladder bar does. A 4 link allows roll rotation, which you tune out with the shocks.

Obviously, when the power level goes up and you start running in the 7’s or quicker, even the shocks won’t control it and you need an anti-roll bar to help control it.
 
yellow rose said:
With a stick, every time you unload and then load the chassis in the gear change, you cause the axle to do what it does, which is drive the drivers side tire into the ground and pick up the passenger side tire. That’s called axle roll rotation.

If it’s an automatic or even a clutchless box that doesn’t unload the chassis like that, you can use an anti-roll bar which is effectively what the ladder bar does. A 4 link allows roll rotation, which you tune out with the shocks.

Obviously, when the power level goes up and you start running in the 7’s or quicker, even the shocks won’t control it and you need an anti-roll bar to help control it.
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yep, it wants to lift the drivers front tire while lifting the passenger rear tire. This is why most cars fish tail to the right when they take off spinning both tires. What J par could do is put one air shock on the passenger rear and preload. That would be really old school and a "shhhh" launch secret... :D I personally like factory leaf springs with slapper bars if a guy can't afford something expensive. Set the passenger side slapper closer to the spring eye. If set up right, the back of the car will lift evenly.
 
318willrun said:
yep, it wants to lift the drivers front tire while lifting the passenger rear tire. This is why most cars fish tail to the right when they take off spinning both tires. What J par could do is put one air shock on the passenger rear and preload. That would be really old school and a "shhhh" launch secret... :D I personally like factory leaf springs with slapper bars if a guy can't afford something expensive. Set the passenger side slapper closer to the spring eye. If set up right, the back of the car will lift evenly.
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You were kind of the last person I would have thought that didn't get it...
I already have SS Springs and I already have slapper bars and I already have an extra 1 inch of steel welded on top of the right slapper bar.. the car has always taken off straight as an arrow...
I "WANT" ladder bars for the old school cool...
 
j par said:
You were kind of the last person I would have thought that didn't get it...
I already have SS Springs and I already have slapper bars and I already have an extra 1 inch of steel welded on top of the right slapper bar.. the car has always taken off straight as an arrow...
I "WANT" ladder bars for the old school cool...
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I get it. My post was directly in conversation to what YR stated, as in chatt'n. I know what you have, and I had no intentions of suggesting anything different to you. That's why I referenced you as a 3rd party.
 
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are you going to put little lights on the lower rear shock mount too. lol
There were quite a few jokers in the early 80's all jacked up with the little lights. lol
 
318willrun said:
My post was directly in conversation to what YR stated, as in chatt'n. I know what you have, and I had no intentions of suggesting anything different to you. That's why I referenced you as a 3rd party, because you were.
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I'm a third party in my own thread... LOL..
:realcrazy:....
 
j par said:
I'm a third party in my own thread... LOL..
:realcrazy:....
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I think you are well aware that remarks and even conversations happen within threads between people other than the OP.
 
fishmens67 said:
are you going to put little lights on the lower rear shock mount too. lol
There were quite a few jokers in the early 80's all jacked up with the little lights. lol
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I'm sure I've told the story a half a dozen times but the little lights are a nod to my best friend from high school regarding my first car when we used to cruise 82nd... The third largest cruising strip in the United States in the early 80s behind southern California and Phoenix Arizona... Again one of my old school themed things... You can call me a joker I've got big shoulders... I used to be a midnight toker as well LOL...
 
Last thing “old school cool” I ever had was a Hyjacker sticker on the side window of my Duster and a Morrosso cool can.
 
weedburner said:
That could eliminate the binding, but i'd want to see more before saying all would be good. Ladders turn the housing into one giant anti-roll bar, those axle brackets might not be strong enough depending on how you use them.

Grant
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Do you think as long as I made strong enough axle brackets that this theory would work?..
I was even thinking of a triangulated ladder bar that had "two" axle perches per bar?? Maybe even with a u bolt going around through each one and also tack welded... From behind it would be v-shaped... A crude drawing...
IMG_20200429_060058.jpg
 
The problem I have with the ladders in the video is the way they attach to the axle bracket...

jparladders.PNG


Large dia ARB's place a lot of stress on the bar's attachment points, the catch-22 in this design is in the area of the attachment bolts. That center bolt adds very little strength to the connection, and the other two middle bolts don't add much more. The front and rear bolts take the lions share of the stress, and i'm guessing they are only about 5" apart.

Quick calculations here that are likely flawed, but let's say a car weighs 3300lbs with 825lbs on each tire. If the car articulates or gets out of shape enough to cause the ARB effect to transfer all the rear weight to one side, that places a incredible amount of stress on those rear attachment bolts. If the effective length of those ladders is say 42" and the rear attachment bolts are only 5" apart, stress at the front of the bar is amplified by about 8.4x thru those rear bolts. Then consider that the track width is wider than the width between the two ladders, that amplifies stress due to weight transfer even more. Transferring 825lbs thru 42" long ladders 30" apart on a car with around 60" of track width, to bolts about 5" apart on the axle brackets equals around 14000lbs. Tensile strength of a 1/2" gr8 bolt is around 21000, but that flat area of the axle bracket where the bolt goes thru is going to bend/fatigue first. Add to that the forward hole thru the ladder itself is a stress riser, may be reducing the bar's section in that area by about 50%. The bar material looks to be hot rolled, nowhere near gr8 tensile strength.

That front axle bracket bolt area just looks like trouble to me.

Grant
 
weedburner said:
The problem I have with the ladders in the video is the way they attach to the axle bracket...

View attachment 1715518702

Large dia ARB's place a lot of stress on the bar's attachment points, the catch-22 in this design is in the area of the attachment bolts. That center bolt adds very little strength to the connection, and the other two middle bolts don't add much more. The front and rear bolts take the lions share of the stress, and i'm guessing they are only about 5" apart.

Quick calculations here that are likely flawed, but let's say a car weighs 3300lbs with 825lbs on each tire. If the car articulates or gets out of shape enough to cause the ARB effect to transfer all the rear weight to one side, that places a incredible amount of stress on those rear attachment bolts. If the effective length of those ladders is say 42" and the rear attachment bolts are only 5" apart, stress at the front of the bar is amplified by about 8.4x thru those rear bolts. Then consider that the track width is wider than the width between the two ladders, that amplifies stress due to weight transfer even more. Transferring 825lbs thru 42" long ladders 30" apart on a car with around 60" of track width, to bolts about 5" apart on the axle brackets equals around 14000lbs. Tensile strength of a 1/2" gr8 bolt is around 21000, but that flat area of the axle bracket where the bolt goes thru is going to bend/fatigue first. Add to that the forward hole thru the ladder itself is a stress riser, may be reducing the bar's section in that area by about 50%. The bar material looks to be hot rolled, nowhere near gr8 tensile strength.

That front axle bracket bolt area just looks like trouble to me.

Grant
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That crude drawing that I laid out would be like two of those on each side and of course no bolts whatsoever at the attachment point but fully welded...??
 
I think the bars themselves would be ok without doubling them, it's just the connection between the bar and that spring pad style axle bracket that's suspect. Proper gusseting could fix the problem, but if I was building the bars from scratch I would make the bar's side plates go all the way up to the axle tube and eliminate the small spring pad bracket.

Grant
 
318willrun said:
yep, it wants to lift the drivers front tire while lifting the passenger rear tire. This is why most cars fish tail to the right when they take off spinning both tires. What J par could do is put one air shock on the passenger rear and preload. That would be really old school and a "shhhh" launch secret... :D I personally like factory leaf springs with slapper bars if a guy can't afford something expensive. Set the passenger side slapper closer to the spring eye. If set up right, the back of the car will lift evenly.
Click to expand...

old chevy tricks-----------
 
weedburner said:
I think the bars themselves would be ok without doubling them, it's just the connection between the bar and that spring pad style axle bracket that's suspect. Proper gusseting could fix the problem, but if I was building the bars from scratch I would make the bar's side plates go all the way up to the axle tube and eliminate the small spring pad bracket.

Grant
Click to expand...
I was thinking possibly doubling the spring pad bracket going on the bottom and on the back side and using a solid long piece of stock down the back? Another crude drawing LOL... I like the way the spring pads are radiused the same as the axle...
and I'm assuming that the front shackles are the complete ticket for not letting anything behind?..
IMG_20200429_153854.jpg

famous bob said:
old chevy tricks-----------
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Bahahaha...
 
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