Variable hydraulic lifters for 440 engine

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AJ/FormS said:
Hang on, this is a 440. I know pretty much nothing about BBs but I have noticed that the valley is divorced from the intake, so it seems to me that it would be impossible for the intake to evacuate the crankcase, as there is no physical connection between them.
But it is still possible for the intake to suck air on the underside of the ports. That's gonna be a tough test.
However, if you still have the previous gaskets, you might be able to see it in the compression-pattern.

The only other places I can think of for air infiltration, are;
in the EGR circuit, if your intake has one;
or a cracked heat crossover, if your intake has one.
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It's a very easy test! If you have a stethoscope pull the end off and put a long vacuum hose on and run it under the runners at the head if it's leaking it will be loud. It's how I found all the ones I have fixed, or just take a long piece of vacuum hose and put one end in your ear and run the other end under the intake.
 
Oil pressure has nothing to do with how the Rhoads lifters work. It's strictly RPM related. Were I to use them, I would only use the VMax lifters. Totally adjustable and totally badass. They do require an adjustable valve train, though.
 
I guess I was being too subtle... obviously it's a bleed-down orifice. :rolleyes:
Thicker oil doesn't bleed down the lifter as fast. Thicker oil also causes higher oil pressure.
No, oil pressure does not directly cause a change to the bleed-down rate.

Anyway, a few people seem to like them and can live with the tapping at idle.
 
Oil pressure has a lot to do with the bleed down rate, most of my friends were circle trackers and they used them and played with different pressures and velocitys.
 
brian6pac said:
Oil pressure has a lot to do with the bleed down rate, most of my friends were circle trackers and they used them and played with different pressures and velocitys.
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Zero. Go read the Rhoads site. It's RPM dependent.
 
I have read everything on roads site over the years.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Zero. Go read the Rhoads site. It's RPM dependent.
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Edit, No, you are correct. I stand corrected on this. Last thing I want is to blab some bad info. I went to double check and oil pressure, viscosity and RPM all effect the Rhoads bleed down. My bad.
 
Cool, we are all on the same page now...and drinking beer! :D
I will surely try the trick with a piece of hose and check for leaks on the intake manifold.

Yes, i am running 1.6 ratio roller rockers.

furyus2 said:
he throttle a little more and close in the mixture screws
This has me confused. The mixture screws aren't supposed to be closed. They are adjusted to highest rpm/vacuum.
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What i meant was to increase throttle by opening them up, and after i will likely have to close the mixture screws to lean it out a little bit again.
While at cruise i am only running on idle mixture screw fuel and transition slot, so if that circuit is very rich i can try to lean it out a bit with that.
Adjusting them to the highest vacuum always had very little effect on my engine for some reason, maybe could gain 1". (subject to change if i do find a vacuum leak)

QuickDart360 said:
11" converter is suspect. Needs a better 9.5" converter with more stall but tight for street.
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I am planning this winter to remove the transmission for a good inspection and repair/upgrade.
The idea is installing a shift kit, at that time i also need to decide to change the converter to something else.
Now it has a flash stall of around 3000rpm, which i will need to stay with i guess.
It is not a racer so yeah i need something tight as well for on the road.
But torque convertor world is something not easy with all these variables.
 
If you adjust your idle-timing and mixture screws for the highest vacuum at idle, you would soon end up with 30 to 40 degrees advance, and an iron-headed engine that won't take a load without detonating, and takes three batteries to fire-up.
It is not the tuners job to force-feed the engine timing, especially not if it has a 3000TC. Our job is to install just the right amount of timing to put the point of maximum cylinder pressure, just after or near the point of most efficient energy transfer to the crank, for as much of the time as is possible, with the crummy timing controls that we have been given.
When you get a hi-torque engine, such as a hi-pressure 440, it is easily possible to generate far too much low-rpm street-torque, if the low-rpm timing is optimized. In this case, you don't even want the low-rpm timing to be optimized. It just makes the engine too hard to drive smoothly.
But in Wietse's case, he has a 3000TC and 4.10s, so this allows for a large degree of fudging of the low-rpm torque delivery.

I use the mixture screws as trimmers, just to augment the transfer fuel at idle, or to trim the cruise fuel.Sometimes I get lucky, and the same adjustment does both.

I like to set the idle rpm as low as possible, consistent with adequate oil pressure and more importantly, adequate oil delivery to the camlobes, and rockershafts. Since this 440 has; a HV pump,tons of oil pressure, and a 3000TC; I think it can be adjusted to idle about as slow as it is physically able to.
But I agree that 7 inches vacuum@850, is not right for this combo, and also suspect an air-leak, which seems to be supported by the bad behavior of the PCV, and the inability of the idle speed to be lowered without a ton of advance. I don't know much about BBs but I'm pretty sure that this is not normal, for this size of cam, even if it was in a 360.
Even my 292/292/108 cam, in the 367, had better manners. I read that this Mopar cam has 248 or 249 degrees of intake duration, and that is what mine measured at. 249* in a 367, compared to 237* in a 440, Ima thinking the 440 should be pretty tame in comparison.
And finally, I do not recall at what vacuum my 292 idled at, but, it did idle down to 550 with a nice steady lope. I'll guess it was at least 10 inches at 700 or I wouldda remembered.

So I am anxious to see the results of Brians-test.
 
I'll see if i can get the car out tomorrow morning and check the intake manifold for leaks.
I will also disconnect and plug the vacuum booster again just to rule out all vacuum ports.

If i can't find anything i will go ahead and try some more idle adjustment by setting it to 12* initial advance and see what that can bring. I will aim for 750 rpm idle.
If i can get it to idle well and have the mixture screws to 1/2 - 3/4 turn, i will connect the vacuum booster again and check for any changes.
After that i will reinstall the PCV hose, i had made a steel plug to fit inside the hose with a 0.060" drilled hole to restrict the air flow from the PCV and see what that does.
Last time driving the car i noticed it was running too rich while cruising, now i think i know that that was caused by the reduced air supply as the PCV was disconnected and plugged.

AJ/FormS said:
takes three batteries to fire-up.
Click to expand...
LOL :D
Get a rack of truck batteries in the trunk!
 
Update:

I've set the initial to 12* and fiddle about with the idle screw and mixture screws.
It took a little adjustment on the idle screw to open the blades a little more and managed to close in the idle mixture screw a 1/4 turn. (just over 3/4 turn)
I had set it at 800 rpm, it pulls 6"Hg vacuum.
While running disconnected the brake booster hose (wants to stall) and plugged the hose end, but no change in rpm or idle quality so the booster can be ruled out for 100%.
I used a piece of hose with a small funnel in the end to listen below the intake manifold but i cannot find any sucking noise coming from there.
Looking below the intake the valley pan seals nicely against the intake, also no leaks of any kind to be found, if there is a vacuum leak i would expect some fuel/soot to drip out maybe when the engine is off?
Anyway, did a test drive and found nothing strange, engine reacts on the throttle quite crisp.
Maybe i feel a very small hesitation when driving slow and increasing the throttle a bit, when stomping it it goes fine.
AFR readings are around 10.5 during cruising over all speeds, it seems to lean out a little to 11.0 if the rpms are higher due to higher cruising speeds.

So after all that i hooked up the PCV hose with the orifice installed, and started up.
Idle rpm went up a little as expected and screwed back the idle adjustment a little.
Now during driving the AFR gauge shows 11.0-11.5, so the additional air obviously leans it out a little.

Again, i am not sure anymore about the AFR meter.
After 15-20 miles on it the spark plugs look as below, all same.
Now to me, this does not seem like 10-11 AFR to me though.
When stomping the throttle the AFR goes around 10.0-10.5.

Now this is with the original (from Holley) jets in place, which are a "72" (hole size approx. .079") on the primary and a "77" (hole size approx. .086") on the secondaries.
These holes sizes are given by the Holley website for guidelines, and actually these sizes do not match the carburator spec sheet (0-80770) on their website as there it says "70" and "75" but i think this is a rough guideline as well and they will install jets depending on the wet flow testing.

Anyhow, i think i can try and lean it out a little with smaller jets to see if the AFR meter shows any difference when coming into, during and after transition from transfer slot to main jets.
Because i think i am earlier at the transition where the main jets start to flow then i think.
I am not looking at the actual AFR reading anymore, but use it more to see if the number goes up or down after changes made.

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AJ/FormS said:
You're becoming quite the tuner.
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Let's hope this is leasons for life!! :D

I also cannot seem to get the choke set right, the high idle is too low and it stalls.
Had given the adjustments screw around 3-4 more turns in total but it does not bring up the idle speed.
How far the primaries should be open when on the choke cam? Just a little more or a fair amount more open?
I was thinking i have overshot the best spot and overdid the adjustment too much where it runs like **** on too much fuel?
 
Yes that's is possible BUT
is the Vcan on line yet?
When the choke mechanism is cold, and you set the choke from the driver's seat with at least two pumps, the choke spring should put the throttle up on the fast-idle cam.
During cranking with the choke-blade closed, the low pressure area under it is gonna cause the fuel to spew out of every orifice it can, and huge amounts of gas will enter the intake plenum. Most of it is gonna just puddle there on the floor . But the more volatile molecules are gonna find their way into the cylinders,. But your late-closing intake valves are gonna allow some of it to push back up into the plenum, So its gonna take some cranking to get enough gas in there to support combustion.
As the cold engine begins firing, The manifold vacuum is very low, so at this time the PCV will be at full flow. If your transfers are not open enough, she's gonna run lean, and whatever gas she's getting, some of it is still puddling on the cold plenum floor.That cold engine wants tons and tons of advance. Probably 30ish degrees.
As soon as the engine runs on it it's own; the choke blade has to retract a lil, so the engine can get air. If you have the idle timing retarded to 12*, your Vcan will need to bring in the rest. So your fast idle will need to be fairly high, to activate the can. Your divorced aluminum intake, is gonna run cold during this time, so your warm-up period will need to be longer than usual.
After a minute or two; the rpm will be rising, and you need to kick the fast-idle cam down one or two steps for a more sane idle speed. If this shuts the Vcan off, the engine may still stall, for lack of advance. And by this time the choke-blade might be nearly vertical. If the engine stalls, you will have to reset the choke to keep the blade from being full-off too soon.
But if your low manifold vacuum is too low to crack the choke blade in the first place;well that's a problem! A very big problem.Because now the engine is flooding. And if the Vcan is off line, then it's a bigger problem.

But we can solve this,lol, after we have proved what is the problem;
is it flooding,or
is it leaning.
 
V-can still not hooked up yet.
I think the mixture is very rich.
It needs a lot of cranking as well to start to hear some cylinders start firing, i really need to push the throttle quite a bit to get it to stay running. (first attempt smoked my garage, for sure all spiders are dead now)
After 2-3 minutes i can release it slowly and it will run on its own, though i was hoping that the choke will do all that for me. :D
When cranking and after it started i can see that the choke blade is being pulled open, from what i know the choke control has its own vacuum port that arranges manifold vacuum to pull that blade open.
Even though the low vacuum, it works.

AJ/FormS said:
As the cold engine begins firing, The manifold vacuum is very low, so at this time the PCV will be at full flow.
Click to expand...

Bear in mind the PCV has now a restricted flow due to the orifice i made, later on the Wagner adjustable PCV should do a similar job.

Speaking of the V-can, i can clearly see that the ported vacuum port inside the carb venturi sits partially below the throttle blade when it is at curb idle.
At curb idle the transition slot is set ok and only showing a little longer than wide looking below the throttle blade so it is not too far opened. (althoug some say you should be able to only see the start of the transition slot from below when it is at curb idle)
This obviously puts (partial) manifold vacuum on the V-can when at curb idle.

And now entering the "good old discussion" about .... Ported or Manifold vacuum for the V-can! :D
In this case the ported signal might give a little less vacuum compared to the manifold vacuum source.
From previous trials i know the V-can will easy pull another 10* of advance at idle, which now will bring it to 22*. (this V-can is not adjustable, it came with the MSD RTR distributor)
Assuming that once the ported signal port is fully below the throttle blade there is no difference between the ported and manifold signal, right?
So i guess i can just use the ported vacuum connection to hook up the V-can.

Am i right in saying that once using the V-can, which will advance the ignition timing, i will likely be able to decrease the mixture screws opening as it will run more towards the efficient point and likely needs less fuel to support idle....?
That will assist in leaning out the cruise AFR.
 
Yeah you got it figured out pretty good.

Except IMO,
if you can figure out how to marry the current transfer slot exposure, with 16/18degrees idle-timing, and still keep the idle at a sane slow enough rpm, that would solve a few starting problems.
I think the 7inches vacuum is telling us something, and if it ain't air coming in somewhere it shouldn't be, then at this point I got only three guesses; 1) internal friction, and 2) retarded cam-timing, and 3) pumping losses. Of these, #2 could be the source of both 1 and 3.
And I know you have already retimed the cam once, so, I'm atta loss.

If I had your problem;
I would redegree the cam, but re-establish or confirm TDC on the Damper, and I would use #6 cylinder this time on the off chance that the cam is bad.
Your 7 inches has been a constant problem for me, and several others have chimed in with similar opinions.
And I know your cylinder pressure is already pretty high, so that doesn't leave a lotta room for advancing the cam. But, in this case, I can't think of what else to do.
So, I would re-do the compression test, then advance the cam 3*, and before putting the front back on, do another compression test. Three degrees represents almost 6 psi. Some guys on FABO with BBs and iron heads, are reporting 170psi on pump gas. I fear you will challenge that, but to this day, I don't recall that you have ever reported detonation. And your combo has the 3000TC and 4.10s to ease the situation. .Three degrees ain't much, but it would sure be nice to see 10 inches of idle vacuum at 800rpm.So that's what I would do

But, yaknow; another thing that has been bugging me is your TC. You say it flash-stalls to 3000, yet it is pulling right off idle. That has never set right with me.
So before I would begin that degreeing business, I would get the rear wheels up off the floor, warm up the engine, and the trans. Then I would put the trans in neutral, and see how much brake pedal it takes to keep the wheels from turning, and what happens to the vacuum, and idle speed, while braking the wheels to a stop.
Maybe the convertor is bad, and this test is a lot less labor intensive than degreeing the cam..... again, for some stranger halfway around the world, who freely admits he knows nothing about BBs,lol.
 
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