Old man with old car, new here with questions

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Hank Humme

Never too old 1960 /170
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
42
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52
Location
65084
We'll I did the dumb old guy thing and purchased a car off a site without looking. 550 miles away so I took a chance.

I am determined to fix it. It is a 1960 Valiant 170 cu in, automatic, 4 door. Speedo states 97,000 Mi. I have it running and driving. The car has 4 very new Michelins, newer alternator and new brake parts in the trunk. There are photos of the carburetor and one of the car attached.
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Questions to which I have not found answers: 1) Did the 1960 BBS 2901s carburetor have a pull off valve? 2) Are ANY Carter cars usable to retrofit that unit? 3) the car sways on the road like a boat in water with waves. What was the primary cause?

I still have a lot to do on the car but with some helpful input from you folks I will get it done.

Thank you, Hank

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Where are you? That looks the like one advertised up here in the NW for a time. That master cylinder looks "icky" I'd consider converting it to a dual system "pronto."
 
Another 4-door, awesome!

Manual or power steering and have you checked for worn front end parts yet?
 
Welcome to FABO Hank!
Your Valiant looks like a good one. Thanks for rescuing it.
I did the same thing about 12-13 years ago and bought my '69 Dart off of eBay after only seeing the online pics and talking to the owner. Turned out to be a great purchase.
I hope yours will be the same.
 
Purdy cool Hank! I have a 64 2 door sedan. 170 3 on the tree. Take a look at my "Runnin and Drivin" thread. I whipped it into shape in a few weeks after sittin since like 1980 and drive it for about 3 months and put it back down for some repairs. I'm gettin my front and back glass gaskets next week and I will be drivin it again real soon! Nothin like a real early A like yours. They have that Virgil Exner look all their own!

Here's my thread. You need to start one so we can follow along. Welcome aboard!

1964 Valiant "Get Runnin & Drivin"
 
Welcome to FABO!!! Cool car!!

You'll find lots of folks willing to help here.
@slantsixdan is another FABO member well versed in those engines.
 
Nice car. Someone before you hacked that carburetor out of ignorance and/or desperation. It's not a '60 carburetor, it's a thrown-together "remanufactured" item with parts from various '64-'67 carbs, and it's missing its choke pull-off. One of your pics shows a '73-up choke thermostat (down on the manifold), which might or might not be wired up in a workable manner. Other photos show a manual choke cable kindasorta attached to the carb—can't tell which setup is the car's current setup.

Your last pic shows a vacuum hose leading from the driver side rear of the carburetor (where the choke pull-off hose should go, if there was a pull-off present) to somewhere outside of the photo frame. Where is the other end of that hose?

(To answer your question: yes, the '60-'63 carbs had a choke pull-off mechanism, but it was internal to the air horn, in the form of a metal piston with a link to a little bracket on the choke plate itself. The external diaphragm-type pull-off came in 1964)

Good carbs to suit the rotating-rod throttle linkage used on these pre-'67 cars have grown difficult to get hold of. You might be able to get this carburetor into reasonably workable condition. You'll need a choke pull-off, which won't be terribly difficult to get hold of. You'll need a fast-idle cam, a fast-idle screw and spring, a fast-idle link, and a choke pull-off link, which will call for a "Wanted" ad here and on slantsix.org.

I see other notable things in your pics. From the high placement of your alternator, it appears this car has power steering—nice, and not very common.

Look with suspicion on that '72-up alternator, though; it is very likely a higher-output item than the original 30-amp unit, and that's an electrical fire waiting to happen. The car's wiring was—just—adequate for the original alternator, and circuit protection (fuses, etc) is almost nonexistent on these early cars. Let your battery develop a dead cell, or the battery's fine but flat because the lights got left on and you jump-start it, or let there be some other condition that causes a big drain, and things are going to burn. Best upgrade the charging system wiring and add some circuit protection (and start new threads about those things).

The starter solenoid has been relocated; originally it was perched on the starter motor. Perhaps the starter is a non-original item of one kind or another; can't see it in these pics.

Intake and exhaust manifolds are '73-up items.

Wallowing ride: way-past-due shock absorbers and likely flabby springs. Put a pair of these up front and a pair of these in the rear and that should greatly reduce the seasickness, then you can get after checking and addressing the springs and the rest of the suspension and steering system.

Carburetor operation and repair manuals and links to training movies and carb repair/modification threads are posted here for free download. Tune-up parts and technique suggestions are in this post. Also see this thread.
 
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Thank you to all for the welcome and good wishes. I appreciate the ideas you have sent me as well. The car does have power steering and power brakes.

The following items have been done or need work. Four new shocks done, power steering gear box has been adjusted a half turn, I removed the drivers side 2 windows with cracks that will be cut at an auto glass company, cleaned and adjusted carb to get it running, replaced valve cover gasket, replaced high pressure power steering hose that threw oil everywhere, found new parts and repaired the turn signal switches that were pieced together, gas pedal sticks to the floor--found that the carb hangs up internally, the gas gauge does not work and the speedometer is vibrating. The underside is rusty and the rear portion of the frame had holes--which I and a friend are repairing with steel and welding.

The divorced choke I installed I have wired to an add on oil pressure switch and the power comes from the feed side of the resistor. Does that sound OK. It tested and worked good.

I will check out the alternator and see about another carb frame that I can rebuild. I am curious if the 1961 to 66 carbs, for a 170, could be adapted for my 1960 as a last resort??

I will also have to check out the entire front end for play. Any additional ideas will also be checked out.

Thanks again, Hank
 
Nice car. Someone before you hacked that carburetor out of ignorance and/or desperation. It's not a '60 carburetor, it's a thrown-together "remanufactured" item with parts from various '64-'67 carbs, and it's missing its choke pull-off. One of your pics shows a '73-up choke thermostat (down on the manifold), which might or might not be wired up in a workable manner. Other photos show a manual choke cable kindasorta attached to the carb—can't tell which setup is the car's current setup.

Your last pic shows a vacuum hose leading from the driver side rear of the carburetor (where the choke pull-off hose should go, if there was a pull-off present) to somewhere outside of the photo frame. Where is the other end of that hose?

(To answer your question: yes, the '60-'63 carbs had a choke pull-off mechanism, but it was internal to the air horn, in the form of a metal piston with a link to a little bracket on the choke plate itself. The external diaphragm-type pull-off came in 1964)

Good carbs to suit the rotating-rod throttle linkage used on these pre-'67 cars have grown difficult to get hold of. You might be able to get this carburetor into reasonably workable condition. You'll need a choke pull-off, which won't be terribly difficult to get hold of. You'll need a fast-idle cam, a fast-idle screw and spring, a fast-idle link, and a choke pull-off link, which will call for a "Wanted" ad here and on slantsix.org.

I see other notable things in your pics. From the high placement of your alternator, it appears this car has power steering—nice, and not very common.

Look with suspicion on that '72-up alternator, though; it is very likely a higher-output item than the original 30-amp unit, and that's an electrical fire waiting to happen. The car's wiring was—just—adequate for the original alternator, and circuit protection (fuses, etc) is almost nonexistent on these early cars. Let your battery develop a dead cell, or the battery's fine but flat because the lights got left on and you jump-start it, or let there be some other condition that causes a big drain, and things are going to burn. Best upgrade the charging system wiring and add some circuit protection (and start new threads about those things).

The starter solenoid has been relocated; originally it was perched on the starter motor. Perhaps the starter is a non-original item of one kind or another; can't see it in these pics.

Intake and exhaust manifolds are '73-up items.

Wallowing ride: way-past-due shock absorbers and likely flabby springs. Put a pair of these up front and a pair of these in the rear and that should greatly reduce the seasickness, then you can get after checking and addressing the springs and the rest of the suspension and steering system.

Carburetor operation and repair manuals and links to training movies and carb repair/modification threads are posted here for free download. Tune-up parts and technique suggestions are in this post. Also see this thread.
 
I forgot to respond to you're comments on the starter relay, which I will add to my list of things to do. I do know the leaf springs are flat. Even with new shocks it sways badly. Would over / helper springs help short term or is the only fix new leaf springs?
I will get my car back from my welder friend this week and I hope to work on it some more. Thank you.
 
I am located in Missouri and I picked up the car in Ohio. You are right about the brakes and will probably convert it to a dual system before I go out on the road. I don't know where the car was originally but it had been refreshed at some time in the past. The interior is pretty decent however the leaks need to be fixed before I remove the carpet.
 
Thank you to all for the welcome and good wishes. I appreciate the ideas you have sent me as well.

Check your Private Messages on here.

The car does have power steering and power brakes.

Wow, power brakes are even rarer than power steering. You'll want to be aware of Booster Dewey for if/when your power brake booster or other components need repair.

power steering gear box has been adjusted a half turn

Careful, there—see here.

the gas gauge does not work

Diagnosis: does the engine temperature gauge work, or is that dead, too?

the speedometer is vibrating.

Cable will certainly need lubed, and the speedo head itself very well may need rebuilt; see here.

The divorced choke I installed I have wired to an add on oil pressure switch and the power comes from the feed side of the resistor. Does that sound OK.

Power for that choke heater needs to go through a choke modulator, or you'll have driveability problems as the choke will kick off too quickly. This '73+ factory setup is problematic even in intended configuration on intended cars; you're better off putting in a № 1231 electric choke kit instead.

I am curious if the 1961 to 66 carbs, for a 170, could be adapted for my 1960 as a last resort??

There's nothing last-resort about it; the carbs were getting better and better year by year, and the '63 carbs had solved a whole lot of teething problems with the '60-'61 units. In your shoes I would go snap up this 1963 Valiant/Dart Holley 1920. It'll drop right on and everything will hook up; the only difference is the fuel inlet is on the side instead of the front. Good excuse to do the Fuel line mod.
 
Check your Private Messages on here.



Wow, power brakes are even rarer than power steering. You'll want to be aware of Booster Dewey for if/when your power brake booster or other components need repair.



Careful, there—see here.



Diagnosis: does the engine temperature gauge work, or is that dead, too?



Cable will certainly need lubed, and the speedo head itself very well may need rebuilt; see here.



Power for that choke heater needs to go through a choke modulator, or you'll have driveability problems as the choke will kick off too quickly. This '73+ factory setup is problematic even in intended configuration on intended cars; you're better off putting in a № 1231 electric choke kit instead.



There's nothing last-resort about it; the carbs were getting better and better year by year, and the '63 carbs had solved a whole lot of teething problems with the '60-'61 units. In your shoes I would go snap up this 1963 Valiant/Dart Holley 1920. It'll drop right on and everything will hook up; the only difference is the fuel inlet is on the side instead of the front. Good excuse to do the Fuel line mod.
 
Ok you gave me more good information. 1) You are right about the divorced choke working too fast without a modulator. 2) Regarding the power steering gear box adjustment I read the manual and researched on line before I adjusted it. The usual statements actually tell you to go in small steps and not to go over 1 full turn when done to prevent lockups.
3) Will a BBS carb for the 225 Cu in engine work on the 170 Cu in? The throttle opening is a little larger ( I read that from one of your comments). Does that matter? 4) The temp gauge works and the fuel gauge will move a little and then go back to empty. I realize that the sender or the gauge could be bad. Hate to pull the tank. The good news is that the tank is full and so far not leaking.
 
Purdy cool Hank! I have a 64 2 door sedan. 170 3 on the tree. Take a look at my "Runnin and Drivin" thread. I whipped it into shape in a few weeks after sittin since like 1980 and drive it for about 3 months and put it back down for some repairs. I'm gettin my front and back glass gaskets next week and I will be drivin it again real soon! Nothin like a real early A like yours. They have that Virgil Exner look all their own!

Here's my thread. You need to start one so we can follow along. Welcome aboard!

1964 Valiant "Get Runnin & Drivin"
Rusty, I read some of your site. I will check out more later. Right now I had problems finding out how to start my own thread. I got on the welcome site to get started. I'll get it going. Good people with no smart aleck remarks is a great thing.
 
Rusty, I read some of your site. I will check out more later. Right now I had problems finding out how to start my own thread. I got on the welcome site to get started. I'll get it going. Good people with no smart aleck remarks is a great thing.
Good people, but the smart aleck comments will be coming....most will be meant with humour and a friendly poke in the ribs.:canada::poke::poke:
 
Will a BBS carb for the 225 Cu in engine work on the 170 Cu in?

Yes, a Holley 1920 or Carter BBS carb intended for a 225 will work just fine on the 170 (…is part of the reason why I pointed you at the particular, specific carb I pointed you at). The factory started using the larger ("225-sized") carb on the 170 in 1967, which raised the 170's published horsepower from 101 to 115.

The temp gauge works and the fuel gauge will move a little and then go back to empty.

OK, if the engine temp gauge works correctly but the fuel gauge doesn't, that's probably a faulty sender or sunk sender float, but could also just be a rusted sender ground clip—that's a metal strap that bridges from the sender outlet pipe to the metal fuel line running to the front of the car; the system's supposed to ground through the fuel line-to-body attachment, but sounds like your car is very rusty underneath so there may not be an adequate ground. You may need to make and attach a new ground wire to the sender plate and run the other end of the wire to a good ground. Repair parts, see here.

The good news is that the tank is full and so far not leaking.

That is very good news; the '60-'61 tanks are nigh on impossible to find.
 
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