Phreakish
Well-Known Member
Mine works great with the stock setup, so I'd try with your rotor at 0 degrees and see if you can at least get it to fire. A drilled cap can then be used to verify phasing.
FItech timing control disaster
- Thread starter plumkrazee70
- Start date
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Mine works great with the stock setup, so I'd try with your rotor at 0 degrees and see if you can at least get it to fire. A drilled cap can then be used to verify phasing.
plumkrazee70
Well-Known Member
That's a thought. I don't like straying from instructions, tho. Id like to understand what I'm doing wrong. I also don't understand why I am not getting spark from the unit, but can get it by grounding the MSD box.
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
I can appreciate not wanting to stray. I do know the fitech documentation leaves a lot to be desired though.. I've had better luck experimenting than listening to them but I'm sure if there's an error in the manual they can tell you about it tomorrow.
As far as not getting spark, great question. It should throw a spark regardless, even if it's at the wrong time.. Unless it can't get to the terminal from being "double advanced"?
Hard sayin', not knowin'.
plumkrazee70
Well-Known Member
Right. Thanks, Ill post back.
512Stroker
We are all here because we are not all there.
That fancy adjustable rotor is mostly likely contributing to your timing issue.
Think of how a 4 cycle engine functions.
For it to bang that hard out the exhaust it would have to be firing after or near TDC.
16-16 = 0* TDC
If you to go in the other direction and backfired out the intake it would need to be BTDC.
16+16 = 32 * BTDC
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Here try reading this:
Ask Away! with Jeff Smith: Rotor Phasing and How it Relates to Aftermarket EFI Systems - OnAllCylinders
I know little (yet) about timing control. When I ran my Dart I did not use it. At the time, I simply did not want to take the time.
You may not have the rotor/ trigger "where you think." Remember, EFI which controls timing DOES NOT CONTROL timing ADVANCE. Read that gain.
It actually controls timing RETARD. That is, electronics cannot advance anything. Electronics can only DELAY or RETARD timing. This means THE TRIGGER POINT must be at or more than maximum timing, AKA 40-50 degrees BTC so that the system can electronically delay the spark "back" to the slow speed timing of (whatever) 15BTC or so, and then at higher RPM REDUCE the delay so that it is not retarded so much, that is, "advanced" closer to the trigger point.
With a locked rotor distributor, this places the rotor contact all out of whack, so that now it must be positioned/ repositioned so that it lines up with the cap, again because the electronics is pulling the spark "retarded" with no mechanical movement in the dist. mechanism
Ask Away! with Jeff Smith: Rotor Phasing and How it Relates to Aftermarket EFI Systems - OnAllCylinders
I know little (yet) about timing control. When I ran my Dart I did not use it. At the time, I simply did not want to take the time.
You may not have the rotor/ trigger "where you think." Remember, EFI which controls timing DOES NOT CONTROL timing ADVANCE. Read that gain.
It actually controls timing RETARD. That is, electronics cannot advance anything. Electronics can only DELAY or RETARD timing. This means THE TRIGGER POINT must be at or more than maximum timing, AKA 40-50 degrees BTC so that the system can electronically delay the spark "back" to the slow speed timing of (whatever) 15BTC or so, and then at higher RPM REDUCE the delay so that it is not retarded so much, that is, "advanced" closer to the trigger point.
With a locked rotor distributor, this places the rotor contact all out of whack, so that now it must be positioned/ repositioned so that it lines up with the cap, again because the electronics is pulling the spark "retarded" with no mechanical movement in the dist. mechanism
512Stroker
We are all here because we are not all there.
Way cool it all makes perfect sense.
Reading this does not negate the fact that your ignition system is firing when your engine has a valve open hence the backfiring.
plumkrazee70
Well-Known Member
Lol. The instructions call for it, so you can get the phasing correct.
I want to understand what I'm doing wrong before I start guessing and moving things. I do appreciate the responses.
Thank you Del. It does make sense and I THOUGHT I had it setup properly. Here are the instructions I am following. Does it sound correct to you?
If I set my motor at 16* BTDC and then rotate the adjustable rotor CLOCKWISE another 16* (which is actually 32* due to the cam turning twice the crank) with the adjustable rotor that puts me at 16* + 32* = 48* of advance. So then the FiTech handheld unit can limit or retard my advance back to 16*. I get all that. Now I am wondering if I was on the exhaust stroke this whole time, hence the huge back fire?
Here is how I determined #1 on the compression stroke:
1. Used piston stop in #1 cylinder to determine TDC - to verify balancer mark.
2. took #1 plug out and connected my compression gauge
2. rotated motor by hand at the crank
3. Saw compression on gauge
4. Rotated motor until I saw 16* on balancer line up with "0" on the timing cover
5. Removed valve cover to verify both valves were closed - did this by spinning the pushrods
6. Stabbed in my distributor - with rotor pointing at #1 tower on the distributor
7. Rotated the adjustable rotor 16* CLOCKWISE
8. Lined up the reluctor wheel with the magnetic pickup
9. Put the cap on and the verified firing order
What am I missing?
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
It's not clear to me from this statement where the spark is actually TRIGGERING. The trigger must be "at least" what you expect to see absolute full advance (IE what would be mechanical + vacuum if it was not EFI) Because the electronics can only SUBTRACT from that.
The rotor, then, must be somehow phased so that it is somewhere in the middle of the "advance" curve range when it's centered on the no1 tower contact.
What you described with the dist. reluctor sounds like it is WAY retarded
plumkrazee70
Well-Known Member
Yes, here they are. https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/fif-30012_oh.pdf Starts on about page 4.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Well, "s" word. I may have led you wrong. It appears that they are delaying the spark 1 complete cycle to get the timing where the "box" wants it. So now I'm the one that's ???
plumkrazee70
Well-Known Member
Well crap. I talked to them today and they said, make sure you have 12V on the white wire, which if not, would prevent the spark from occurring. I know I had 12v when I was done wiring, but after all the cranking yesterday its possible that I drained the battery.
They also sent me these instructions, which are close to the others, but I am not sure what #6 means. So I emailed them about that. Its is just weird, it shouldn't be this hard.
The Ignition timing control with an MSD 6A type box is set up by the following steps:
1) Connect black “Coil” wire to the “Points” input wire on the MSD harness. The CDI output wires going to the coil need to be the only things going to the coil, and need to be kept very separated from all of the other wires.
2) Used LOCKED OUT distributor (MSD distributors can be locked out by their instructions – removing the drive gear and flipping the top side)
3) Connect the distributor 2-wire to the FiTech unit’s 2-wire distributor input (blue and green wires with white connector)
4) Use handheld in Go-EFI Initial Setup with the key on, change “Tach or 2Wire+Coil” to “VRCoil” (VR means variable reluctor – i.e. magnetic pickup). Click the button / joystick to “Send to ECU” Turn the key off after doing this step, and wait 15 seconds for the system to save that into permanent memory – this is one of the few changes that needs to have the key turned off after performing in order for the software to initialize some things correctly.
5) The “Distr Base Timing” is the spark timing that the engine will be cranking at, and also represents the minimum spark advance the system can allow. 10 degrees might be a good starting point.
6) With a phasable rotor, advance it about ¾ of the width of the brass tip. Use Loctite to keep the screw tight – it will back out if you don’t.
7) Put the engine at about 10 degrees BTDC, and move the distributor with the cap off to see that a tooth on the trigger lines up with the pickup sensor.
8) Start the engine, with timing light connected, distributor clamp loose enough to adjust but not moving by itself.
9) With the handheld in view, to “Go EFI Initial Setup” and then “Ignition Setup.” Set “Lock Spark to Adjust” to LOCK. Hit send to ECU and the EFI will command 30 degrees. With the engine still running check timing at the balancer with a timing light. If the timing is not at 30 degrees turn the distributor until the engine is.
10) Key off the vehicle. Tighten down the distributor clamp and now the engine is synced with the EFI. The system will automatically unlock.
11) Now you can use the handheld to put in other spark advance values in the “SPARK MAP” in Go-EFI Tuning.
12) If the engine needs more or less advance at cranking, you would need to change the “Distr Base Timing” and also repeat the above procedures for moving the distributor.
13) VR Advance 4000 is to compensate for some lag in the magnetic pickup. It’s only useful if the spark advance matches at low RPM, but not high RPM. The default value is close enough in most cases.
14) Idle advance is the median spark advance at idle. There is a stability function in the software that automatically adds or subtracts timing JUST AT IDLE to try to keep the RPM stable at the Target Idle RPM.
15) WOT means full throttle (wide open). 45kPa is a very light cruise load.
MOST IMPORTANTLY – Ignition timing has NO LEARNING. It will do what you tell it to do, and if the engine knocks, the computer DOES NOT KNOW – you need to reduce the timing with the handheld SPARK MAP to make it go away. Most Engines are OK with 3000 45kPa Cruise spark advance in the high 30’s to low 40’s, and WOT timing at 1100 being around 10-15 (but listen for knock at these low RPMs and adjust accordingly), and WOT at 3000 to be around 28-32 degrees, and WOT 6000 at 30-36 degrees. Surging is NOT common – make sure you’re not misfiring – burned wires, etc... and maybe needs a touch richer AFR at 1100 45kPa (don’t go richer than 12.9 in that area, I’d suggest). Backfires on acceleration are not common – this may mean it’s retarded, or that the ACCEL PUMP fueling needs some adjustment. Exhaust pops during deceleration are common – not much can be done.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
It seems like you want the rotor contact on the "advance side" of the tower contact What seems to me is you want the rotor to overlap the contact by about 3/4 of it's width, that is, 1/4 or so of the rotor contact "hanging out" on the advance side of the tower.
I would, if I were you, "just plan" after you get it basically running, to hack up a cap and check rotor phasing. This is going to change with advance, so check the timing, and if it's where you expect at low RPM/ idle, the rotor should be "just coming to" the contact in normal rotation. As you speed it up and the timing changes, it should "sweep across" the tower contact.
I guess you know? this is not a problem with mechancal advance in a normal dist because the rotor and advance mechanism are connected mechanically--on the same shaft
This is also why, for some applications, like older V6's that you used to see huge wide rotor contacts........so as the vacuum advance changed, the rotor would be "in phase."
Example
I would, if I were you, "just plan" after you get it basically running, to hack up a cap and check rotor phasing. This is going to change with advance, so check the timing, and if it's where you expect at low RPM/ idle, the rotor should be "just coming to" the contact in normal rotation. As you speed it up and the timing changes, it should "sweep across" the tower contact.
I guess you know? this is not a problem with mechancal advance in a normal dist because the rotor and advance mechanism are connected mechanically--on the same shaft
This is also why, for some applications, like older V6's that you used to see huge wide rotor contacts........so as the vacuum advance changed, the rotor would be "in phase."
Example
Phreakish
Well-Known Member
Step 7 is how I set my starting point. Get one of the reluctor teeth to align to the pickup and then tweak just a little advance into it.
That is usually enough to get the engine started for me.
That is usually enough to get the engine started for me.
plumkrazee70
Well-Known Member
Lol. Why do you have to live so far away!
plumkrazee70
Well-Known Member
UPDATE:
Ok, after taking a step back for a few days. It's up and running. I removed the distributor and the wires and the oil drive gear.
Reset it to 16* BTDC on the balancer.
Put the oil gear in
Stabbed the distributor at #1 cylinder
Marked the cap
Left the rotor advanced to 16*
Put the plug wires on
Cranked and it spit.
Backed the timing off a little.
Fires right up.
Settled with 15* on the balancer (rotor still advanced) and then updated the handheld with the correct timing at idle.
I revved the motor to 4k and was getting about 42* total. I didn't know where on the handheld to check that against, so I just let it warm up and set the IAC steps.
I found where to check the 4k rev in the handheld, so I'll get to that, this weekend hopefully.
But it's nice that it just starts up.
Ok, after taking a step back for a few days. It's up and running. I removed the distributor and the wires and the oil drive gear.
Reset it to 16* BTDC on the balancer.
Put the oil gear in
Stabbed the distributor at #1 cylinder
Marked the cap
Left the rotor advanced to 16*
Put the plug wires on
Cranked and it spit.
Backed the timing off a little.
Fires right up.
Settled with 15* on the balancer (rotor still advanced) and then updated the handheld with the correct timing at idle.
I revved the motor to 4k and was getting about 42* total. I didn't know where on the handheld to check that against, so I just let it warm up and set the IAC steps.
I found where to check the 4k rev in the handheld, so I'll get to that, this weekend hopefully.
But it's nice that it just starts up.
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