Timing Curve on 360 in an RV

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Someone asked above about locking out the distributor, that is not an option as the Hall effect distributor is non adjustable. Timing is verified by locking timing At 12* and verifying with a timing light. After verifying, timing is unlocked and the computer takes over. I have discussed with tech support multiple times and that conversation is a waste of my time as I believe a lot of efficiency is left on the table with the limited timing with no explanation as to why this backfire occurs.
If I am reading this right, the new system base timing is verified by 'locking' the timing in the software at 12* and verifiying on the damper marks with a timing light.

But that is a different matter from locking the mechanical advance mechanism in the distributor. Is this the stock distributor being used for this new system, or a new distributor being provide with the new system? I guess this is a dumb time to ask this but what EFI system is this? Pro Flo 4, with a new distributor?
 
If you try and set this system up in the same fashion it will not tolerate timing advance numbers much over 30* without a backfire occurring around 3K rpm’s.
If you have proved the index mark on your balancer is in fact TDC,then;
this is not likely to be a timing problem; it only appears to be. What it likely is, has already been mentioned; but here are some other possibilities, in order of most likely and known concerns are highlighted.;
As to ignition problems;
A) rotor phasing
B) faulty trigger or reverse-polarity trigger
C) Faulty cap; cracks or tracks
D) faulty coil; spark jumping to somewhere else than where it is supposed to
E) ignition crossfire from wire to wire
as to fuel problems;
F) lean AFR,or low fuel pressure
as to other;
G) the stinking aftermarket tachometers
H) restricted exhaust
K) problems in the chamber
L) problems in the valve-opening/closings, or the timing of those events.
it could be multiple problems
But if you have proved your balancer mark, and if the computer knows that the base-timing is 12* (IIRC), then I seriously doubt you have timing issues......

If you have a Multi-Spark System, coincidentally maybe, they switch from MS to Single-Fire right around 3000.
Here's my thinking;
Every engine I have ever tuned, loved mega-timing at idle,in Neutral; mega being 20* or more. By 2800 every one of them liked high 40s to high fifties. My 367 has sometimes accepted up to 63*! while cruising! The thing is,this is cylinder pressure dependent, and the AFR has to compliment the timing.
Also; there is a specified operating fuel pressure for your system. You cannot deviate very far from the spec, without having issues. The fuel line has to be able to accommodate the flow. It doesn't take much of a restriction in a 5/16 supply line, for a return system to falter. Same goes for the filter.
Do not deviate from the installation instructions.


Also; there are two kinds of what is commonly called a backfire.
1) An actual backfire is when the A/F charge in the intake manifold catches fire. At low rpm the engine is likely to stall, as all the charge in the plenum may be consumed, and the expanding gasses may actually exit thru the throttle-body. The computer may not react fast enough to the pressure spike, so when that happens the exiting gasses may bring fresh fuel with it and then you might have a dangerous underhood fire.
What can cause a backfire, is already on-fire burning gasses getting into the intake, past an open intake valve. This is not supposed to happen, and usually signals a mechanical problem. But it can happen on split overlap, or if the chamber has hot-glowing material in it, such as carbon or metal.
2) A missfire is when the mixture never ignites at all, and passes thru the chamber unburned.This is not likely to happen with EFI.
2) If the fuel charge enters a header with an air leak, it can ignite the next time that cylinder exhausts. If it enters a log manifold, it is likely to burn as soon as it sees a flame. When the fire occurs in the manifolds or headers, this is called an afterfire.

Oh yeah, do you know how to check your rotor phasing? and trigger polarity?
The distributor towers are 360/8=45* apart. Theoretically, with precise rotor alignment, you would have a 45* window in which to fire the plug. But in reality, the spark will jump to the tower with the least resistance, so that window has to be shrunk.
Typically. a performance engine will have a 20* window, while a low-compression factory window might be 30*. We try to center the window with half the degrees before the tower and half after; that way the spark will not be tempted to jump to the next easier to fire tower.
With the D locked at 12*, the rotor should be right in the window....... but you gotta look and prove it. You do this by putting the proven crank index mark at 12*, scribing the Distributor body at the center of the #1 plugwire tower, then pop the cap off and look to see where the rotor is. If it's within say 15*, you are good to go. The closer to centered, the longer your cap will last. Mine is from the 70s, and has been on several engines, and likely has over a quarter million miles on it. If it's outta range, then you gotta re-engineer it, er I mean move it,lol.
The polarity check is easy. Just watch the index mark on the balancer as you rev up the engine. If the mark moves back and forth nicely, then she's good to go. But if it jumps around like a headless-chicken and dropping sparks, well then it ain't right.
 
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If I am reading this right, the new system base timing is verified by 'locking' the timing in the software at 12* and verifiying on the damper marks with a timing light.

But that is a different matter from locking the mechanical advance mechanism in the distributor. Is this the stock distributor being used for this new system, or a new distributor being provide with the new system? I guess this is a dumb time to ask this but what EFI system is this? Pro Flo 4, with a new distributor?

ProFlo4 Hall effect distributor that has no internal mechanism to vary timing so the ECU controls timing.

Also I have verified the rotor is at the #1 distributor cap terminal @ 12*.

I do know what happens when the factory pickup is connected backwards and this acts very similar. I was saying backfire but it’s actually fuel igniting in the exhaust. Unless the distributor pickup is wired incorrectly from the factory It’s hooked up correctly as it can only plug in one way. I have 2 different engines that act exactly the same.

Also not using any aftermarket multi spark box just the internal ignition within the EFI system.

One last note, the ECU uses timing Along with the air control valve to control idle speed so timing jumps around some at idle.
 
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but it’s actually fuel igniting in the exhaust.
no we're getting somewhere.
how is this possible?
I'm assuming this happens in Neutral at 3000rpm.
Perhaps the fuel-air charge did not finish burning in the chamber. This could be because there was not enough air in there to react with, so some unburned fuel left the chamber.
Or it could be too much fuel for the amount of oxygen.
Or it could because the fire was not lit early enough, so the fire just never had enough time to finish.
Pick one; I can't think of a fourth option.
But really it amounts to almost the same thing, the A/F charge is finishing the burn in the header/manifold; and it can only do this if there is oxygen already in there when the fuel gets there. How is that possible? Only one way I can think of; a faulty gasket, or poorly fitting gasket, at the head. A header, by design, will "suck" air in there, behind every slug of exhaust moving down the tube. And 3000 is the perfect time to do it, as the engine is approaching peak efficiency.
A log manifold does not do this as it is usually at a higher pressure than atmospheric.
Afterfires are sorta normal, but are usually contained in the header, so you don't notice them, Ima thinking that after you seal up the header-flange, your engine will want more no-load timing at 3000, and a change in AFR, probably leaner, but could go either way.
 
Actually after thinking about it more, it acts exactly like the electronic pickup In the distributor is hooked up backwards where spark is erratic as the engine starts to run rough and the afr goes to the lean side. Exhaust is tight. Engines both ran fine with carbs prior to EFI. The OP has the same issue.
 
Along with the air control valve to control idle speed so timing jumps around some at idle.

This should not be so, and is guaranteed to make trouble. The idle timing should remain fixed until about 200 to 400 rpm higher than the idle speed.
With an RV cam in an otherwise stock long-block, as you say, the idlespeed can be down at 650/700 in N, 550/600 in gear whichever is smoother. There is no good reason to be any higher. You can set your throttle body with a closed AIS, to 50 rpm lower than this, and then program the AIS motor to target 50 rpm higher. Or something like that.
But the timing must remain fixed. Set your start of advance point to at least 300rpm higher than your stable idle-speed.

It occurs to me that your interpretation of RV-type cam and mine are not the same. Perhaps now is a good time to publish your cam specs.
 
I will add a few things to this thread;
1. OP, stop doing anything more with your timing and get a piston stop and verify that your balancer is correct. Do nothing else until this is done.
2. Check rotor phasing. Drill a cap, shoot the timing light at it. If it’s off fix it. Google it.
3.verify polarity of the pickup is correct. Hell if you think it might be wrong, switch it and see what happens.

After 1,2, and 3 are done then you can begin to do as @AJ/FormS says and build a map.

It is that simple. We should stop giving advise until these questions are answered because they are guesses at best.

If the Edelbrock proflo efi timing control is as bad as @Mopar73340 says it is why would anyone buy one?
 
LOL.... Agreed AJ. But I think we have the OP's situation, and Mopar73340's situation, which Mopar73340 thinks is the same setup with the same equipment, and is displaying the same symptoms. So for now, let's assume we are working as such: same setup and same problem.

So now to re-wrap our heads around this particular setup, which is the Edelbrock Pro Flo 4. OP, can you confirm that you are suing this system?

SO that system comes with a new distributor with a sensor in a fixed spot and no actual mechanical advance mechanism, or vacuum advance pod. Everything related to spark is simulated.

One thing to realize about this type of spark triggering system: It really does not set spark from each trigger from the Hall Effect Sensor. It cannot accurately fire a spark in advance of a sensor trigger event that it is waiting for LOL. It can only detect RPM, use the average timing of the sensor triggers in absolute time, and compute a timing in advance of when it THINKS the next trigger will occur.

The random jumping around of the spark timing at idle observed by Mopar73340 is certainly a problem. Mopar73340, can you tell us by how much this timing jumps around, and does it jump retarded, or advanced, or both? This is interesting as it can effect completeness of burn, and if a lot of variation is there, why could it not add to the programmed advance and make that supposed 22* max advance jump way up into the 30's of degrees from time to time? Or a 30* timing jump to 40*? The 'why' sounds like it is one of the things that Mopar73340 has asked to the Tech Support folks with no good answers.

BTW, Mopar73340, how far toward NoVA do you live? I am near Waynesboro, and it would interesting to put my oscilloscope on this system and see if the triggers are varying in time, or if the program's timing accuracy is causing the spark timing jumps.

Also, if you take out the vacuum advance programming, does the jumpy idle timing settle down any? Just trying to think what else within the programming that could effect the timing.

And finally, FWIW.....this system is capable of flows to support 800 HP on 500 CI engines and big cams, per the setup instructions. Put this on a smaller engine and with a mild cam, with very low relative fueling requirements, and no one should be shocked that it will not have the best fine fuel control at idle and low cruise situations. I know someone who put a Holley Sniper system on a 2.2L 4 banger; it is acting the same with not the smoothest idle. (No reports on any timing variations, however.)
 
Here’s a stupid question for the op. After you set the distributor at 12 degrees and lock the timing at 12 degrees on the tablet, and you have finished the sync process, are you unlocking the “lock timing at...” tab on the tablet?
The 12 degrees sync point is an arbitrary number that means nothing. It’s just a checking point.
 
And yes, being 1,2, or 3 degrees off from your sync point will make a difference.
 
I know it's obvious, but are you 110% on the firing order? We've all messed it up at some point, and it causes what you're describing - firing in the exhaust.
 
I am not familiar with this ignition system and may be way off ..but my Daytona Sensors CD-1 can be digitally programmed for advance curve . Except the box does not advance the spark it actually retards it. So you set the distributor at the full advance point then the unit brings the spark back in according to your program . It works reverse of what you would imagine ! One of their techs explained this to me . This would explain your issue if this was the case with your system .
 
Sorry guys, I was trying to help the OP out at first and give some information about the EFI system and my experience with it but it has gone way off target for him. My setup and his are totally different as I do not have a RV engine. Only thing in common is the EFI system.
 
@Mopar73340 no apologies you added some helpful info regarding the proflo and your direct knowledge of the system. You actually got this thread MORE on track. RV engine or blown hemi, it really makes no difference the diognostics will be the same. And the setup on the proflo will be the same. Just a different tune.
 
Depending on which 360 you have here are the specs.
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So, I’m completely aware of the name of this forum, but...RV forums are a terrible place for engine advice and after a ton of research it’s clear you guys here know more about 360’s than damn near anyone else online. I figured, what the hell, I’ll give it a shot.

I’ve got a 1978 Dodge RV (B300 platform) with a 360 and a 727 transmission in it. Did a fuel injection conversion (Edelbrock EFI), engine is stock, and have been toiling around trying to tune the new setup. My biggest stumper so far has been dialing in the timing curve.

Right now I’m running 15 degrees initial, 21 degrees total, all in at 2200 rpms. Would like to run more total timing than this, but if I go higher I get some pre-firing and back-firing while under load.

With this current setup, idle in park is around 1050-1100, dropping to 850 in gear.

This is the best, most reliable tune I’ve been able to put together so far that’ll get me around town and down the road on the highway, but the drop in rpms when going into gear tells me I’m not dialed in yet, idle rpms seem higher than usual, and total timing seems low to me.

Hoping I can tap into some knowledge of those who might have been here before and figure out the next phase of getting this thing dialed in. Or, maybe with as heavy as my RV is, this is actually a realistic landing spot and I’ve just been reading too much about what the timing curves of normal cars with 360s look like. RV weighs about 8,000 lbs.

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To my understanding, if you are using the EFI electronics to control your timing you must lock out all your mechanical timing in the distributor. If you dont the mechanical and vacuum advance will add more advance on top of your electronic timing.
Perhaps someone who is more versed in EFI can chime in.
 
Lets go with non-cat 360 to start
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So that's what the timing ought to look like.
I might start with a bit more initial, say 2 to 4* at idle and then follow the upper line.
See how it runs with that. Then slightly tweak from there, one small change at a time.

If the engine has or had coolant temperature switches, sometimes they were used to add more timing at idle when coolant temperatures approached 230*. AKAIK, this was only done on some engines that had potential to overheat in traffic due to retarded initial timing for smog reduction. I'm guessing the 0* initial here is for emmissions and simply because its a super efficient burner at 750 rpm.

Bottom line is there's nothing here to suggest initial timing above 10* is useful in maximizing torque and power.
 
Overall suggests an engine that wants rather less timing than a typical hot cammed 273, or 340 - 360 for a car.
Especially so in the cruising and mid rpm driving.
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Were the catalytic converter engines were for lighter vehicles or also used in the same RV application?
I'm guessing the additional timing with the cat is not only about emissions but also due to differences in cam, maybe intake, and loads on the engine.
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What I want to know is how much performance and mpg was sacrificed for lower emissions ? And how can I recurve mine to recover both ?
 
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