360-1 Casting better?

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I have a son who works at the largest grey iron foundry in the world...six blocks from my house.

Waupaca Foundry casts many different products from brake rotors to transmission cases to hot water boilers. They have their own landfill where used sand goes to die.

My son is a foreman in the mill room where the castings are rough ground and have their excess sawed off. Another son spent several years there too.

They operate automated "Disa's" which pour the iron into the molds.

There is a pattern company in town that supplies patterns to them.

One of my boys had a 271HP Ford 289 that was cast here in town...had the WF logo cast in the lifter valley. The foundry president insisted they never cast any engine blocks for Ford until I showed him a photo of the WF logo inside the engine. He was one of the earliest employees from the 1950's and all he could do was scratch his head in disbelief!!!

That "WF" in the lifter valley on a 289 was for Windsor Ford. They cast 289's, 302's, 351's ... Ford uses Windsor and Cleveland a lot on their engine blocks.

I've been inside about 50 times the Saginaw Metal Casting Operations which is a division of GM Powertrain and is now GM's largest aluminum casting facility now. When I was there they were GM's largest "Grey Iron" casting facility and mostly small block Chevy engines and heads. And they have been a manufacturing casting plant for over 100 years on this site. And they actually had special semi trailers hauling molten aluminum up 1-75 from Flint to Saginaw while they were converting over to aluminum casting.
  • Green sand aluminum – heads: 752,000
  • Lost foam – heads: 333,700
  • Precision sand – blocks: 117,500
Products

  • V-6 aluminum engine blocks and cylinder heads for the Chevrolet Camaro, Cadillac CT6 and XT5 and the GMC Acadia and Canyon.
  • Front axle assembly for the light-duty Chevrolet Silverado.
  • Aluminum engine blocks and cylinder heads
  • 2.2L/2.4L L850 I4 blocks
  • 5.3L/6.0L Gen IV V-8 blocks and heads
  • 5.3L/6.2L Gen IV V-8 block pre-machine
But all of this means nothing unless you understand how they make patterns for mold, how some engine blocks are actually pieced together during casting... It's a good field trip. Wear all black clothes. And you've never gotten a sun burn until you've stood a few feet away from a glowing red engine block that is passing by on the conveyors inside the catacombs. Or watch (2) 400 ton hopper/sand shakers busting up used molds that get recycled, equipment that had actually collapsed the original frame work and where resting on the buildings structural W72 structural steel.

Just go buy a bottle or powder graphite and empty it on your face and hands and stand over your open oven door while its on 500 degrees. It's about the same experience.
 
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So in your experience, the core numbers were the order they were poured? I'd take that trip to Hades in a heartbeat! So they cast blocks out of lost foam? If I ever get my smelter built (or bought) im going to try and cast a set of side draft /6 carb bases in lost foam. Ill use my hotwire to shape it. Fascinating........
 
i have seen many mopar venders selling blocks years ago.Numeric castings got cheaper as the numbers went up.On one occasion a -1 was $1000 and the price gradient changed to as low as $200 for a -11
casting.Racers usually opted for -1 or 2.
 
i have seen many mopar venders selling blocks years ago.Numeric castings got cheaper as the numbers went up.On one occasion a -1 was $1000 and the price gradient changed to as low as $200 for a -11
casting.Racers usually opted for -1 or 2.
Both 340s i owned were -8's. Weird that i remembered that. Good to know.
 
Yeah, it's not a "pour order" number. The term is tooling revision number. It was to track repairs and revisions to the mold, not the pour. And according to every source available, there would have been multiple different tooling revision numbers being poured at the same time. Seems pretty clear. If the factory were going to track any number at all, it wouldn't be the order the block was poured in. Maybe the number of times that a particular mold was poured, sure. But that wouldn't tell you anything about the quality of the metal in the block or core shift.

More importantly, why would the factory or the foundry care what order the blocks were poured in? It would make no difference to them at all, the block would either pass QA or it wouldn't. The tooling revision number would matter though, because that would be the way they tracked their tooling and determined when it needed to be replaced because of wear.

And here's the real kicker. That number is on the mold right? Well, that means the number is on the mold before it's poured. Core shift happens when the mold is poured. Which means, that number literally can't tell you anything about core shift. It's there before the pour even happens. Even if it got a better pour order, that doesn't make it immune from core shift.

Doug Dutra talks a bunch about the casting process for the /6 engines here. https://www.slantsix.org/articles/dutra-blocks/slant-blocks.htm Couple of interesting points about the molds and the cores that went in them, which again, would tell you any number on the mold would be irrelevant for something like core shift.

"Let’s review what I know about how the cast iron SL6 blocks were made, namely the sand casting process. In the process of producing the "Dutra Dual" cast iron dual exhaust manifolds and the aluminum Hyper Pak intake manifold, I have become quite familiar with this type of casting process.

The RGFC blocks were cast 2 at a time, in a single sand mold made up of a cavity "rammed-up" into a box of "green sand", with several sand cores added, which create the hollow sections of the casting. The blocks were cast camshaft side down, crankcase to crankcase. Each mold cavity was loaded with over 20 "cores" made of baked oil sand. The major cores formed the crankcase, the cylinder deck-bores-valve tappet chamber, the water jacket, and the front and rear of the block. The main bearing webs and the crankcase pockets were made for both blocks by 3 large cores assembled together. The core that forms the front bay of one block forms the rear bay of the other, in other words, each end core formed the water pump scroll and the timing chain cavity on one block and the rear bell housing flange on the other. The water jacket cores were assembled to the crankcase and barrel slab cores using core wires. After the small cores for the fuel and oil pump pads are placed, the crankcase / water jacket / barrel slab core assembly was lowered into the outer sand mold and then the end cores were added to hold everything in place
After all the cores were set in place, the mold was "closed" with the top half of the outer cavity mold. 3 water jacket "venting holes" per block allowed hot gas and steam to escape through the top of the mold. These holes along with 4-cored holes in the cylinder deck were used to shake out the core sand after casting. Later blocks saw 2 more "venting holes" added to each block (5 total). These gas venting / "shakeout" holes are the ones we commonly refer to as freeze plug holes.

The mold was closed and poured. If everything was done right, out would come two SL6 block castings, ready to be cleaned & machined. Now that you see how all these cores were individually made, assembled and loaded into the mold, you may have a better idea of what the term "core shift" is all about. Core shift can be caused by poor core placement in the mold or the cores might move or "float around" when the molten iron is poured in. Either way, you end up with a casting exhibiting uneven wall thickness. Remember, the block is lying on its side so core shift will usually result in the cylinder walls being thicker on one side of the bore than the other. This situation can cause cylinder wall distortion or failure, especially if the block has been over bored by a large amount. The relative thickness of cylinder walls is usually thought to be the most important aspect of block selection."


He also talks about the rough castings and "sintered sand" and a few other things in the article I linked. Great knowledge on actual engine casting techniques.
 
@oi81b4uu812b4 .....So whats the inside scoop on the core numbers? The smoother resto 340 castings used the new sand and the production motors got the ****? Sound about right to me. Seems they would be sifting out the crap with every recycle. Wonder if the lower production numbers of the IH cast 318's had any better surface finish. That would be a great field trip, to a casting plant.
Amazing that there is some knowledge of the “IH cast 318’s”
That brought back memories.
Chrysler’s main block and head foundry was in Indianapolis. Was known as the Tibbs Avenue Foundry. Back in the early 70’s Chrysler outsourced some of its 318 engine block foundry work to the International Harvester Foundry that also was in Indianapolis. I have visited the Chrysler Foundry many times, but was an employee of the IH/Navistar foundry from 1971 to 1997. IH cast 318 blocks for Chrysler from 1971 to about 1973. The IH portion of the 318 production was always only only a portion of the total 318 annual cast, and only for about 3 years. That is why the IH 318 block is rare,compared to a Chrysler 318 block. As the IH and the Chrysler foundries were contemporaries of each other, both used tooling and processes from that era, I doubt that one was much better than the other quality wise. The IH / Navistar Indianapolis Foundry from time to time did a lot of block and head casting for other companies. Sadly both the Chrysler and the IH/Navistar foundries in Indy have been leveled. One thing killed both of them, NAFTA.
In the mid 90’s the Navistar Indy Foundry cast nearly 50% of all of Cummins 6B blocks and heads as well as 4B and 6C blocks.
Those Indy cast Cummins blocks and heads did have a higher hardness than the blocks and heads that Cummins was getting out of South America.
To the extent that the Cummins machining plants did not like the Indy cast blocks and heads, but the Cummins Engineering folks loved them.
And back on the original topic. The numbers after the part numbers on blocks and heads have absolutely nothing to do with the iron poured out of the ladle. The numbers are ‘pattern’ numbers. With the patten being the hard tooling required to make the mold shape.
Typically blocks are poured two at a time,
so the first set of pattern produced would be 1 and 2, the next set would be 3 and 4. Each set of patterns could produce maybe 50,000 to 75,000 castings before they would need a major refurbish. After maybe 100,000 to 150,000 uses or molds the pattern is worn to the extent that it is cheaper to replace than refurbish, so pattern sets 3 & 4 and 5 & 6 and so forth are made and used in production.
Concerning quality, all the patterns would be updated nearly constantly to incorporate changes that would reduce rejects and improve quality.
Major reductions in defects like core shift would happen with casting technology and capitol equipment improvements, that happen over decades, not with pattern replacements.
 
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What about the Brazilian 318s that we in Australia got in the late seventies. I have a 318 dated 1978 and on the side of the block is cast in "made in Brazil" By all accounts my machinist says he sonic checked one and found a much thicker bore! I also know a guy who worked for chrysler in the USA and also chrysler Australia and he says yes these blocks were a lot better than the USA blocks.
 
So in your experience, the core numbers were the order they were poured?


Not in my experience...

In my experience, the core numbers are used to identify what cores are used in each mold....

If they find a defect in the castings, they need to identify which core is the bad one so they can sort out all of the potential bad ones from the stock and then go fix the mold that's causing the problem...

With the volume of blocks that they have to pour, they can't keep up with demand with only one mold... They have many molds to keep up with the production demand...

They need to be able to identify what particular mold is causing the problem.. If they can't, then they have to go over ALL of the molds (even ones that may be good) to make sure they catch the problems... If you mark each mold, then you can isolate which cavity/core is causing the problem and narrow in on it much quicker...

It's a quality control thing... The core numbers are for traceability...
 
A lot of good information here, much thanks to everyone for sharing the experiences. This brings up a question on a particular dash series number... 318-3. Mentioned in the MP manual as being a heavy duty motor home and industrial unit with a premium crank. Would this have been a separate mold setup for extra wall thicknesses? I’ve got a friend with a 1982 -3 series number block (reman from jasper) that appears to have been cast as a reverse rotation marine block. We haven’t weighed it yet but when compared to a regular 318 block the cylinder bores are obviously much thicker on the minor thrust surfaces on the left from the front side of the bores. I Also know of several early 318 truck blocks (68-72) in -5 and -7 that have been sonic tested and can go to a 4.1 inch. Definitely the exception instead of the rule, but they are out there. It makes me wonder how high the dash series ran in one off production blocks like the 340 T/A before the end of regular production before it went to an over the counter piece.
I’m not going to say it’s completely right (the sonic tester is be all/end all!), but I know some who look for the highest possible dash numbers so they have the latest revisions.
 
Not in my experience...

In my experience, the core numbers are used to identify what cores are used in each mold....

If they find a defect in the castings, they need to identify which core is the bad one so they can sort out all of the potential bad ones from the stock and then go fix the mold that's causing the problem...

With the volume of blocks that they have to pour, they can't keep up with demand with only one mold... They have many molds to keep up with the production demand...

They need to be able to identify what particular mold is causing the problem.. If they can't, then they have to go over ALL of the molds (even ones that may be good) to make sure they catch the problems... If you mark each mold, then you can isolate which cavity/core is causing the problem and narrow in on it much quicker...

It's a quality control thing... The core numbers are for traceability...

Exactly!!!
 
So then the dash numbers really don’t mean anything as far as any number being better for strength. Kim

Yup. In theory later revision numbers may have had more running changes incorporated into them, but even that’s not a guarantee because the revision numbers don’t correlate exactly to dates, some cores/molds needed more repairs than others.

Doug Dutra said he never looked at the “dash numbers” in his article, except one specific case which was more about the core revision itself (thicker webs) than the dash number itself.
 
Not in my experience...

In my experience, the core numbers are used to identify what cores are used in each mold....

If they find a defect in the castings, they need to identify which core is the bad one so they can sort out all of the potential bad ones from the stock and then go fix the mold that's causing the problem...

With the volume of blocks that they have to pour, they can't keep up with demand with only one mold... They have many molds to keep up with the production demand...

They need to be able to identify what particular mold is causing the problem.. If they can't, then they have to go over ALL of the molds (even ones that may be good) to make sure they catch the problems... If you mark each mold, then you can isolate which cavity/core is causing the problem and narrow in on it much quicker...

It's a quality control thing... The core numbers are for traceability...
Hey, I called it! Post #3 and #17....Its good to be RIGHT. :usflag:

As for NAFTA..Ross Perot got it right.." There will be a giant sucking sound going south.."
 
What about the Brazilian 318s that we in Australia got in the late seventies. I have a 318 dated 1978 and on the side of the block is cast in "made in Brazil" By all accounts my machinist says he sonic checked one and found a much thicker bore! I also know a guy who worked for chrysler in the USA and also chrysler Australia and he says yes these blocks were a lot better than the USA blocks.
They probably weighed more meaning there was more material meaning it would have cost more to make in the USA. Cheaper labor in Brazil, possibly cheaper materials if iron was locally sourced so they could use more material at the same price point.
 
A lot of good information here, much thanks to everyone for sharing the experiences. This brings up a question on a particular dash series number... 318-3. Mentioned in the MP manual as being a heavy duty motor home and industrial unit with a premium crank. Would this have been a separate mold setup for extra wall thicknesses? I’ve got a friend with a 1982 -3 series number block (reman from jasper) that appears to have been cast as a reverse rotation marine block. We haven’t weighed it yet but when compared to a regular 318 block the cylinder bores are obviously much thicker on the minor thrust surfaces on the left from the front side of the bores. I Also know of several early 318 truck blocks (68-72) in -5 and -7 that have been sonic tested and can go to a 4.1 inch. Definitely the exception instead of the rule, but they are out there. It makes me wonder how high the dash series ran in one off production blocks like the 340 T/A before the end of regular production before it went to an over the counter piece.
I’m not going to say it’s completely right (the sonic tester is be all/end all!), but I know some who look for the highest possible dash numbers so they have the latest revisions.
Not saying they did not do that, but if the factory was building production engines and using standard stock sized pistons, why would they make the cylinder walls thicker for HD applications. The strength in an engine block comes from the thickness of the top and bottom decks and the main bearing bridges.
I can see thicker walls being built in for a block that had a racing application, to allow an over bore to a bigger piston. But to track those from casting to machining to assembly typically the special part would have its own part number. Part numbers are used to differentiate similar looking parts that are actually different. Pattern numbers only indicate the tooling that was used to make the mold, which makes the exterior shape of the casting, the pattern would have very little influence on cylinder wall thickness, as cylinder wall thickness is set by the water jacket cores and the main body or what was called the barrel core.
 
I thought the -3 was a forged crank motor. Didnt know it had smaller water jackets/thicker cylinder bores.
 
Thanks for the tip, I'll look at the stamping numbers the next time I'm there to see what it says. But that block is also much thicker through the deck surface than even my 1975 360 block. I'll also look at the bearing saddles and bulkheads again. It did not have a forged crank but I suspect being a reman through a facility that processes parts on a large scale it would be rare to see rotating assemblies kept with the engines they came from. I don't think the odds are very favorable to see a forged crank in any 1982-1983 LA engine, either, though.
 
Not exactly on topic, below are a few mementos from my Foundry days.
It was good honest work, interesting and very rewarding, one could make an impact everyday.
Thanks for bringing back the memories.
4BDD06EF-A099-4DD9-989C-63DFA8876973.jpeg


CF31F454-A76B-435B-B3BD-F72C9953E678.jpeg
 
Yup. In theory later revision numbers may have had more running changes incorporated into them, but even that’s not a guarantee because the revision numbers don’t correlate exactly to dates, some cores/molds needed more repairs than others.

If a run of 340-3 has revisions made and the new castings are 340-4....then there must be something in the 340-3 that needed correcting or adjusting....otherwise there would be no changes made?
 
If a run of 340-3 has revisions made and the new castings are 340-4....then there must be something in the 340-3 that needs correcting or adjusting....otherwise there would be no changes made?

To go from a -3 tooling revision number to a -4 something would have been changed on that core/mold. It doesn't have to be a factory revision though, it could have been just a repair to that particular mold/core. Somebody dropped a core and repaired it, it goes from -1 to -2. At least according to 440 source, the revision number on all the blocks being poured at the same time would not all be the same. If all the blocks on the floor have different revision numbers and a new revision comes down, you couldn't just say look for a "-3" because some of them would have already been a "-4" and another one could have been a "-2" and yet another might have been a "-9". Which means you couldn't assume that all the "-3" blocks had the same revision, you'd have to look for the revision itself and not just the number. Which is why 440 Source, Doug Dutra and others say they don't pay attention to the tooling revision number and inspect the individual blocks.
 
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