360-1 Indy 245 cnc heads

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OK now for the OLD 360-1 Indy 245 cnc'd head that has been touched up by Ryan (Shadydale) and another shop in Pa. This head is the one with a water leak in one exhaust port. It has been ran on the street and track. I tried cleaning it up some but it would have needed a full soak in my tank and probably a quick buff but I had limited time to do the flow testing. Don't get excited about some of these high numbers because they are what I call "bump numbers" of a turbulent port. Digital flow bench can detect this but it happens to fast for fluid manometers. Again this head did and will make horsepower. Again being off the same cnc pattern the exhaust side SUCKS!!!

.100-----48 cfm
.200----130
.300----193
.400----249
.450----273
.500----293
.550----306
.600----325
.650----355-360
.700----348-356
.750----343-351
.800----340-343

Old exhaust port

.200-----89
.300----131
.400----158
.500----185
.600----197
.700----210
.800----223
 
Molding compound ordered so I ordered enough to do two ports as the shipping was almost as much as the compound.
 
tjpatte said:
Sorry for the stupid question, but how do you get the mold out of the head? The bowl side looks to big to come back through the port side?

I’m sure it’s something simple, but I’m Real simple!
Click to expand...


Carefully cut or slice the back side of the bowl so it can be pulled out and around the valve guide out the port entrance. They sell a compound release to spray the port wall before pouring it but you still have to carefully go around it with a screwdriver before putting it out. The compound is very flexible.
 
pittsburghracer said:
Carefully cut or slice the back side of the bowl so it can be pulled out and around the valve guide out the port entrance. They sell a compound release to spray the port wall before pouring it but you still have to carefully go around it with a screwdriver before putting it out. The compound is very flexible.
Click to expand...
Thanks John!
 
New head intake
.100-----55 cfm
.200----138
.300----191
.400----248
.450----273
.500----295
.550----312-320
.600----345-350
.650----351-358
.700----325-330
.750----328-334
.800----332-342
.850----322-338

Old head intake
.100-----48 cfm
.200----130
.300----193
.400----249
.450----273
.500----293
.550----306
.600----325
.650----355-360
.700----348-356
.750----343-351
.800----340-343
 
New head Exhaust
.200---103
.300----135
.400----162
.500----185
.600----197
.700----210
.800----223

Old head exhaust
.200-----89
.300----131
.400----158
.500----185
.600----197
.700----210
.800----223

A little tough to find the $1400 worth of improvement by the flow numbers.

Thanks for the numbers John:thumbsup:
 
I’ve only had 3 or 4 sets of 360-1 heads here....... none of them were cnc ported.
One of those sets I ported.

All of them had the intake flow numbers back up at high lifts.

I think I had someone send me a 360-2 cnc(oval port)to flow a few years ago...... I can’t recall if that had the same problem or not.

I’ll see if I can find the numbers.
 
I wonder how these results compare to a high end SBC head, like an 18 degree Dart or something.
 
PRH said:
New head Exhaust
.200---103
.300----135
.400----162
.500----185
.600----197
.700----210
.800----223

Old head exhaust
.200-----89
.300----131
.400----158
.500----185
.600----197
.700----210
.800----223

A little tough to find the $1400 worth of improvement by the flow numbers.

Thanks for the numbers John:thumbsup:
Click to expand...


You are very welcome. Like I said I hope some intake work was done to for what my buddy paid but honestly I didn’t care because it’s to late anyway. I know he got zoomed and between the two guys ended up with a leaking head. Years ago I would go to Ryan’s website which contains good info and flow numbers to compare. He liked to insist that you got his “special” valve job as part of the package. And things were stacked on from there. My son fired up my friends Duster with the new transmission, new head, heavier starter wiring, and a few other jobs last night and Matt said it sounded great. Hopefully we will find out this weekend
 
I wonder how these results compare to a high end SBC head, like an 18 degree Dart or something.
Click to expand...

I think you’d find that the “better” porting programs for the 18* style heads wouldn’t have that drop off in the high lifts....... and the ex ports are way better.

I haven’t tested any of those on the current flow bench, but on the old bench, and as done for the 9:1 358” Busch motors running a 390 carb...... to the best of my recollection those were in the 350 range on the intakes, and the ex was in the 250-260 range.

One current off the shelf example:
($2600/pr at Summit)
48F64580-8A87-4A53-8C88-949640ECADB3.png
 
Last edited:
I’m going to put this here since the thread is about the SB cnc’d Indy heads.
These are numbers for the ootb CNC 230(oval port) version.

4.00 bore, clay radius, 28”, no tube on exhaust, Indy valve job, Indy 2.10/1.65 valves with back cut:

Lift———in/ex
.100—— 67/56
.200——137/113
.300——203/152
.400——260/176
.500——297/188
.550——305/191
.600——313/195
.650——319/198
.700——321/201
.750——315/204
 
Again all I am going to say about exhaust flow numbers is what Darren Morgan told me years ago. He said don’t concentrate on flow numbers and worry about the speed of air exiting the port. He stressed shaping the port (bell shaped) and making the exit flange as big as the header would allow. I wouldn’t even try to use his thinking the way these heads were cnc’d. To much metal already removed for my liking. Heck I can hit his recommended number (325 plus FPS) on a Speedmaster Head.
 
Last edited:
PRH said:
I think you’d find that the “better” porting programs for the 18* style heads wouldn’t have that drop off in the high lifts....... and the ex ports are way better.

I haven’t tested any of those on the current flow bench, but on the old bench, and as done for the 9:1 358” Busch motors running a 390 carb...... to the best of my recollection those were in the 350 range on the intakes, and the ex was in the 250-260 range.

One current off the shelf example:
($2600/pr at Summit)
View attachment 1715573256
Click to expand...

Help me understand how you get a 390 cfm carb to perform with heads that flow so much ? Incredible !
 
I always gotta wonder about exhaust port flow....people spend hours and hours flowing a port, grinding, CNC'ing, making it perfect. They will fight with their friends for hours over all the theory about how the port should flow and how big it should be and how smooth it should be. Each port is a perfect match to tall the other ports, nothing is left to chance.


Then, they bolt it to a header that is 1/16" inch away. The header is usually a round tube that in no way matches the port and very seldom even mates up to the port with any consistency. Surely the first 4-6" of the header must be still pretty influential on port flow.....
 
PRH said:
It was the rules.....390 carb.

I put an HP950 on one once just to see...... it picked up about 100hp.
Click to expand...

I am aware of the rules part . Just amazed at how they make so much power with a 390 carb . You would think the imbalance between carb flow and port flow would stall the air in the port .
Pretty cool !
 
Well I talked to my buddy and he is going to pick up his car tomorrow. He also said he wanted me to keep the leaking head for my troubles. Hmmm sounds like some testing may be upcoming when the season is over. He is also going to buy one more head as the other one kinda scares him
 
pittsburghracer said:
Again all I am going to say about exhaust flow numbers is what Darren Morgan told me years ago. He said don’t concentrate on flow numbers and worry about the speed of air exiting the port. He stressed shaping the port (bell shaped) and making the exit flange as big as the header would allow. I wouldn’t even try to use his thinking the way these heads were cnc’d. To much metal already removed for my liking. Heck I can hit his recommended number (325 plus FPS) on a Speedmaster Head.
Click to expand...

The Indy heads generally won't perform as good as the flow numbers suggest...they can be made to flow more air past .700 and then flatten out. The problem is the short turn, you can't widen it enough or shape it correctly without hitting water. If they changed that (and made the area between the intake and ex. bowl solid like most aluminum heads) they would make much better power per cfm.
 
PRH said:
I’m going to put this here since the thread is about the SB cnc’d Indy heads.
These are numbers for the ootb CNC 230(oval port) version.

4.00 bore, clay radius, 28”, no tube on exhaust, Indy valve job, Indy 2.10/1.65 valves with back cut:

Lift———in/ex
.100—— 67/56
.200——137/113
.300——203/152
.400——260/176
.500——297/188
.550——305/191
.600——313/195
.650——319/198
.700——321/201
.750——315/204
Click to expand...

Dwayne, how much change would a 4.08" or 4.10" bore make on the intake flow?
 
Justin..... def one of those “it depends” things.

Those were on a 408 motor, which only had a 4.030 bore.
I doubt that little difference would amount to anything(.015” per side).

I did that test on an Indy 440-1 cnc345.
4.375 bore vs 4.500 bore.
Zero difference on the intake side.
The exhaust picked up a couple of cfm way up at the top.

I tested a fully ported T/A head(that someone else ported) on my 4.00” bore adapter and the numbers were noticeably lower than what the owner was told they flowed.
And, frankly..... they “looked” like they would have been better than what they were.
There was speculation that perhaps the other shop tested them on a 4.250” bore(the motor the heads were on had a 4.00” bore), so I retested on the 4.250 adapter.
Almost identical to the 4.00” test......... but slightly lower numbers at higher lifts.
 
Early 90's...I went to Indy's shop, was gonna buy some of the new Indy cyl heads for the BBM. This was the first time you could really buy an aluminum BBM head without undue suffering. I walked in the door with a blank check, and left with blank check....Russ was so abrasive I went from 'buyer' to 'get me outta here' in 10 minutes flat.

He bragged a lot about how the stock BB heads were junk, ports too small to make power. His heads had BB Chevy-like ports, much bigger. I was thinking to myself, "Gosh, I race those BBC guys every week and while they're making all the power, I'm out in front of them, winning with my lousy stock heads that I ported myself....."

Anyway, the point is a lot of guys back then were disappointed in the Indy heads. Guys who were used to the BBM's aggressive torque and power found they had a sluggish engine all of a sudden. This was later evidenced by the Indy SR head they brought out which had smaller ports.
 
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