Idle screw question. Rich or lean?

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cdnEHbody

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friends car. Not Mopar. But helping cause I like v8s.

Holley 4160 (new). Stock small block... No emissions stuff. Trying to get idle dialed in. Steady vac at about 19. Idles pretty consistent. But when you clutch in coming to a light, the idle dips low and comes back up.

Is that a needs to be a bit richer or leaner on the idle screws ? Seems in my mind when the plates shut it can't get enough fuel right away and goes lean...but I dunno.
 
I think neither; There's a slim chance that the fuel level is a tad low. But
I think you need to put the throttle blades a little further up on the transfer slots, by increasing the curb-idle.

To me; I agree with your assessment that the throttles are closing to far too fast and a momentary leanness as the mixture screws are forced to take up the slack. You may have to back off the idle-timing if the rpm goes too high, and that would require a revisit to the power timing.

IMO
with a V8 small-block stick car, there is no benefit to a bunch of idle timing. In fact, it just makes the engine too powerful at low-rpm/very low road-speed ,and then it becomes too difficult to drive very slowly without slipping the clutch.
With 19 inches of idle vacuum, you can sacrifice some of that to get a better slow-speed driveability.
Try sacrificing 4 to 6* of timing and, increasing the curb-idle screw at least 1 to 2 turns., and see how she likes it. The mixture screws should end up between 1/2 to 3/4 turns out from lightly seated.
Sooner or later she's gonna want a 10.5PV.
Good luck!
 
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I think neither; There's a slim chance that the fuel level is a tad low. But
I think you need to put the throttle blades a little further up on the transfer slots

To me it sounds like the throttles are closing to far too fast and a momentary leanness as the mixture screws are forced to take up the slack. You may have to back off the idle-timing if the rpm goes too high, and that would require a revisit to the power timing.


Okay. I'll check the level again. I think it was just under the little viewing port when I checked it. So your saying possibly a bit more throttle screw to open them a bit? Then back off timing to lower the idle?

The ports aren't totally square but they aren't alarmingly exposed either
 
also, we are bit past the factory recommend 10* at idle. To about 13 I think. (Old emissions 4160 that was tired) ill spin it back to factory.
 
Ok so if you know about syncing the transfers
then, in your case you want them to be a MINIMUM of square, to a wee bit taller than wide, and the secondaries should be closed up tight without sticking. You must run a PCV, and the Vacuum advance must run off the sparkport.
That should get you in the ballpark.
 
13 should be a good starting point
Just screw up the idle-speed then, and readjust the mixture screws as may be required. Make sure the secondaries are closed tight but not sticking.

This is in a car or light pick-up right?
NOT a graintruck I hope.
 
Ok so if you know about syncing the transfers
then, in your case you want them to be a MINIMUM of square, to a wee bit taller than wide, and the secondaries should be closed up tight without sticking. You must run a PCV, and the Vacuum advance must run off the sparkport.
That should get you in the ballpark.


Yup. Vac advance is off of spark port.
Secondaries are closed. Factory pcv still on and confirmed working.

It goes like stink, pump shot works good. (Had to change to the holley squirters with the tubes on them) cruises nice. Smog was removed, including air pump.

1983 galloping horse ragtop.

I'm already at the 750rpm factory setting. So I'll dial it back a bit timing wise to open the plate a bit more.
 
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that pony got the factory 4-speed cam in it?

If yes, then 19"vcauum @750 sounds very high


Yup. Bone stock 83 h.o. (as h.o. as 1983 gets, but hey it was 180hp up from 145 a few years prior)tree oh two except equal length shorties, 2.5 mandrel bent pipes and thrush mufflers with a H pipe.

18.5 or 19. Depends what Guage I grab from the drawer.. cheapies...

Borg warner t5 in it, trac loc dif, subframe connectors added recently. Lived a very easy life by the lady that owned it since new and from the my friend.

The fuel level looks lower than I thought. But its been sitting a bit. I'll check it running tomorrow.

I actually bought the car from a friend. Really enjoying in this hot weather.
 
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Years ago, I worked on an 84. I think that was the first year of the EFI engines. That 4 speed cam in 84 was pretty jumpy down low. Being EFI, I couldn't do anything with it.
I'm having a hard time accepting 18/19 inches vacuum at 750@13* idle-timing. I would have thought a lot less.
Without the specs Ima thinking the timing is not 13, I'll have to see if the web can find me specs.
 
1984 was was the first year of efi believe. But it was tbi and not very good(3 years later brought multiport which was much better) It was an option. And worked with almost nothing but stock components.
Stock h.o. cam is pretty mild, more than a standard firing order 302 though. But nothing crazy. Rumor has it ferd took it from the parts pile for the 73 torino...I think the part numbers match up. Hence the 351w firing order on these 302.

Forums claim 18-20 with a stock cam is where it should be.
 
Also, let me get my timing light on it to confirm tomorrow also. I know its a bit more than the factory 10*, but not a lot. I wanted the small idle speed increase on the old and tired reverse idle screw 4160 without opening the butterfly more.


Why bigger power valve?
 
Also, let me get my timing light on it to confirm tomorrow also. I know its a bit more than the factory 10*, but not a lot. I wanted the small idle speed increase on the old and tired reverse idle screw 4160 without opening the butterfly more.


Why bigger power valve?


The number doesn’t represent a bigger power valve, it sets when the power valve opens relative to manifold vacuum.

The higher the number, the sooner it opens. Late opening power valve timing (relative to manifold vacuum) is a tuning disaster.
 
The number doesn’t represent a bigger power valve, it sets when the power valve opens relative to manifold vacuum.

The higher the number, the sooner it opens. Late opening power valve timing (relative to manifold vacuum) is a tuning disaster.


Yeah. I won't touch that. It's the stock 6.5 and the car goes like he'll otherwise. Just this small idle dip issue.
 
Yeah. I won't touch that. It's the stock 6.5 and the car goes like he'll otherwise. Just this small idle dip issue.


Right, because I doubt you have 9 or 10 inches of vacuum at a cruise and to unscrew the power valve timing requires the rest FP the car to be fixed.

12many did an in-depth post in this forum about correcting power valve timing and his real world results. Worth the read if you look it up.

I’ll go out on a Lomb and say your carb is nowhere close to being tuned if you are using a 6.5 power valve.

You are crutching the overrich condition by opening the power valve very late.

Which is one of the reason guys get hideous fuel mileage with a Holley. And the blame lies directly with Holley for allowing just one of many idiotic tuning issues continue for DECADES.
 
Right, because I doubt you have 9 or 10 inches of vacuum at a cruise and to unscrew the power valve timing requires the rest FP the car to be fixed.

12many did an in-depth post in this forum about correcting power valve timing and his real world results. Worth the read if you look it up.

I’ll go out on a Lomb and say your carb is nowhere close to being tuned if you are using a 6.5 power valve.

You are crutching the overrich condition by opening the power valve very late.

Which is one of the reason guys get hideous fuel mileage with a Holley. And the blame lies directly with Holley for allowing just one of many idiotic tuning issues continue for DECADES.


Okay. I read the calculation was idle vacuum divided in half minus 2. I didn't know there was a giant way to set them. I'll look it up

Besides the idle dip when I push the clutch in coming to a stop the car doesn't seem to be overly rich?
 
Thanks for the read suggestion. I'll have to get some longer hose for the vacuum Guage and route it into the car, then go for a drive. Running out of time this season though. Going in for a new rag top pretty quick here.
 
With a stick car, the carb has to be dialed in pretty sweet.
It's not like an automatic, where you can get away with murder. Automatics between idle and stall-rpm can be pretty ugly and guys like it because they can "hear the cam".
You can't get away with that in a stick car, cuz she spends alotta lotta time below 3000 rpm, and has to pull sweetly in that zone.
Proper timing and the 10.5 with a slightly reduced mainjet will get you some of that.
If you put a vacuum gauge on that engine and slowly rev her up, you should find the vacuum increasing until somewhere in the early 2000s and then it will hang at that vacuum for a while. The lowest rpm that it achieves the highest vacuum, is where the engine first becomes efficient with the current camshaft. You want to drive there for best fuel useage not necessarily best mpgs. But that is where your engine will typically become a joy to drive. For a Mopar streeter, this usually drops in between 2000 and 2400. But for your combo IDK.
In any case, because that is the beginning of the sweetspot, yur rightfoot is gonna gravitate towards being there. For my combo, the sweetspot is 2200 to 2800, and then again at or near peak-torque.
The thing is, with a stick car, and a starter gear of around 11/1 and 25.5" tires, 2200rpm is ~15 mph. So whenever your mph is below that, the engine is not where it likes to be. Typically, us mt guys blast thru there because of the engines grumpiness to being there. But it doesn't have to be that way!
The cure is in the tune.
Assuming you have the right size carb, for starters; then at and below 2200rpm, your engine does not care what size MJ is in the carb; you can take it right outta there and it will make no difference.
What it cares about, is the stinking timing, the position of the throttle blades to the transfer slots at idle, and the PV timing, coming off idle. After that, you get on the IABs to fine tune it.
The stinking timing at low-rpm is where just about every m/t self-tuner screws up. He tries to throw timing at it like the automatic guys do. Which if your cylinder pressure is in the basement, you can sortof get away with.
But as your cylinder pressure rises, the engine becomes more efficient, and so more powerful at small throttle openings...... like at below 2200 in first gear lol. With a manual trans, this translates to bucking...... because there is no Torque Convertor to suck the pulses up, and Mustang guys typically have featherweight flywheels, so that is the opposite of what you need to tame the pulses.
But the easiest cure for that, is to light the fire a lil later, so the power pulse are less strong and occur well after the optimum crank position. Below 15 mph/2200rpm,and cruising or lightly accelerating, your combo does not need optimum power, it just needs to behave itself.
Your 13* idle-timing is a step in the right direction. So if you are NOT experiencing bucking at low-rpm, then you are on the right track.
As an example; I run 14* in my 367 which works well most of the while. But not at closed throttle and driving reallt slowly. My idle speed is 700, so with my starter gear and tires 700=5mph. So that would typically be called my slowest roadspeed.... but the bucking starts right there, so I gotta put a lotta toe on the pedal to smooth it out. But at 5* timing, she will idle smoothly down to 550rpm in gear and pull herself around at 4mph without bucking. So now I can parade with the automatic guys. That's probably partly due to the 180psi cylinder pressure, of this 367. So I'm just pointing out what is possible. I am not recommending you try 5* of idle-timing. This 367 has a 230@.050 cam in it, probably close to 3 sizes bigger than what's under your hood, so mine is apt to be waaaay more jumpy than yours.
But here's the deal; to make the engine run on retarded idle-timing, you gotta pull some tricks out of your tool-kit, to fast track the timing back up to normal by around that same 2200. But you still gotta hit the power-timing at 3500. And, the fueling has to keep abreast of that too.
And that is where the rate of advance, and the Vcan, and 10.5PV come in.
But I digress;
Back to post #2,
and pay attention to the other guys that often show up to help. I doubt any of them will accidentally steer you wrong. Your problem should be an easy cure.

One thing I should mention is this; I never begin a tune without knowing the cylinder pressure is at least even across all cylinders. It's amazing to me how many issues can track back to a poor valve seal on even just one cylinder.
At 18/19 inches of as you say steady-vacuum, I'm not pointing to a compression test, but I am questioning the gauge reading for that cam at 750 rpm and 13* of idle timing. If it is the same cam as the 84 TBI GLX's got, working from memory, that cam didn't make anywhere near that. But then, the TBIs didn't idle at 750 either,lol; so IDK. Very interesting none-the-less.
 
Thanks for all the advice. This carb should be close to what it needs in terms of cfm. The factory carb was an 1840c 600cfm. But made for emissions with a 2 stage power valve.

Car will just chug along at low speed no bucking. I can mat it pretty low rpm in 1st or 2nd rolling without any cutting out Now . It did before I put in the better pump nozzles holley makes. Still on pump cam position 1. I can literally idle through the neighborhood in 1st.

I'll get a pick of the vacuum guage. But the pony guys claim for a stock cam 18" is normal range.
 
In that case, I believe the 18/19
So your doing a good job. Yur almost there.


Okay, floats level good. Idle transfers a bit more than square. I took it for a drive again, same idle dip issues and there is a stumble if I'm just cruising and stomp it, like very aggressively. And not a real bad one.

Backed idle screws out a bit, and it seems to have fixed that drop problem.

Now, the stumble problem. The car is easily drivable and has no problem with low rpm cruise, pulling away from lights hard etc. or aggressive acceleration (that's not the stomping around like 1800rpm) could probably solve it with a pump cam kit but...

I think I'll hold off on further tuning as I need to take it for top soon, and then investigate this cruise vacuum power valve selection. Seems highly recommended by Google searches. Also looking at wideband kits to really get it setup well. Don't want to order a cam kit I may not need if I get into other areas of tuning.
 
Seems I didn't let the carb heat soak enough either. Much reduced after the carb gets warm from a longer drive (phenolic spacer) I am also running an open plenum spacer on a dual plane manifold. I might try a half inch 4 hole to replace it and see if that helps.

Engine is coming out for rear main seal and pan gasket this winter. So I'll explore all of this more with the power valve change in spring again. I haven't checked anything valve related on it either, like rocker arm lash etc. Its got 186,000 kms on it. So again, won't delve to far into this at the moment.

Also noticed a spot of coolant on the rear manifold stud. So intake gasket time
 
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