Some strut bushing info

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Just asking a question, no need to go toddler or anything. Sometimes people disagree, you can take your ball and go home if you want but its just a discussion. In the past you have said that people who buy the adjustable strut rods were stupid, and that they will buy anything that the salespeople talk them into. You also stated that adjustable strut rods allow your lower control arm to pull right off of the pivot because of their "swivel". I only asked the question because it looks as though you may have changed your tune as you built the same product.
 
fishmarket said:
Just asking a question, no need to go toddler or anything. Sometimes people disagree, you can take your ball and go home if you want but its just a discussion. In the past you have said that people who buy the adjustable strut rods were stupid, and that they will buy anything that the salespeople talk them into. You also stated that adjustable strut rods allow your lower control arm to pull right off of the pivot because of their "swivel". I only asked the question because it looks as though you may have changed your tune as you built the same product.
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fishmarket said:
Just asking a question, no need to go toddler or anything. Sometimes people disagree, you can take your ball and go home if you want but its just a discussion. In the past you have said that people who buy the adjustable strut rods were stupid, and that they will buy anything that the salespeople talk them into. You also stated that adjustable strut rods allow your lower control arm to pull right off of the pivot because of their "swivel". I only asked the question because it looks as though you may have changed your tune as you built the same product.
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Actually, I disagreed in post 47 and never retracted it. It was in reference to the fact that you believe there is nothing holding the control arm from moving front to back on the pin. That is what the strut rod does....That's why I disagreed.
Oldmanmopar said:
There is nothing holding the lower from moving front and back on the pin.
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Oldmanmopar said:
Those are the original strut rods with the original threads. All I did was added the hymn ends, They are turned so they pivot on the balls when the control arm goes up and down, I used hymn ends and the tapered bushings from our sprint car .

The tapered bushings allow full twist. I just wanted to eliminate the bushing crush when foot braking the car. Strut rod bushings cause wheel shake when launching the car off the foot brake.

I just bought a car with a AJE tube front suspension and rack and pinion. So this K member will probably be sold. We were installing bearings in the LCA's. The Duster was wrecked before this was installed. The K-member was cut to make room for a bigger pan.

If you watch the front wheel in this video you can see the shake. You could feel it in the wheel. We also tied the suspension down to keep the wheels from lifting. Lift takes away from the cars forward reaction. Wheelies look cool but they hurt ET.


View attachment 1715580561

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Heim joints bud, they're called heims. And yours work the same way that every other heim ever made does. Which is to say that the aftermarket adjustable strut rods work the same exact way as yours do (without the K member butchery).

And of course, more pictures of that butchered K member that has never seen a single mile on the track or the street. But I'm sure it's the best one ever made. When you extended those strut rods and relocated the pivot point forward of the K you did check to make sure the resulting larger arc of the strut rod at the K frame would actually clear the K frame itself right? And of course a single pass weld on one side with no reinforcement is strong enough to support the strut rod, even with a larger hole cut out in the K.

Oldmanmopar said:
I order them at NAPA . He is a relative he gets these for me. I don't know numbers I just tell him what I am looking for.
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Yeah, so he's the guy we should actually be talking to. It is interesting that it's the Moog numbers and not a Napa # on those invoices.

Again, congrats on getting them, somewhere there's a Napa warehouse with some remaining Moog stock. But you can't currently get the K7068's even from Moog themselves (you can order direct from Moog too!), so, whatever you're getting is leftover stock. Hopefully it wasn't recall stuff, that's probably why the new stuff is currently on hold.

fishmarket said:
Just asking a question, no need to go toddler or anything. Sometimes people disagree, you can take your ball and go home if you want but its just a discussion. In the past you have said that people who buy the adjustable strut rods were stupid, and that they will buy anything that the salespeople talk them into. You also stated that adjustable strut rods allow your lower control arm to pull right off of the pivot because of their "swivel". I only asked the question because it looks as though you may have changed your tune as you built the same product.
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Man I hate to break it to you, but OMM doesn't do logic. He frequently contradicts himself on the adjustable strut rods, of course he made his own but everyone else's are trash. And he's recommended the late model strut rods before too, but since I mentioned that I have a set he says they're junk in this thread. He's even said recently that poly bushings at the UCA are fine. new front end parts Which is funny, because the OE rubber UCA bushings are constructed just like the OE LCA bushings with friction fit rubber. Poly UCA bushings need to be lubricated just like poly LCA bushings, they spin on their pivots just like the poly LCA bushings do.

Oldmanmopar said:
I made them myself for a race car free. I would never use them on the street especially with poly lower control arm bushings. Mine were free Hotchkis are $300. You can't see hotchkis hymns once they are on. There is no way to grease them. How do yo know when they are loose. Wait for the knock? LOL.
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What's that now? Seems like you can both see them and get to them just fine. I mean, you'd know that if you'd ever installed them. Sure they aren't the easiest thing to get at to add grease, but they're definitely not the hardest thing to grease on these cars. And then there's the fact that without a boot you don't want to actually add grease, as it will cause dirt to stick to the heim and cause premature wear. The dry-lube you'd want to use on an exposed heim is usually in an aerosol can with a little spray tube for the nozzle, so, that's super easy to do. Again, I would think you'd know this.
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fishmarket said:
Actually, I disagreed in post 47 and never retracted it. It was in reference to the fact that you believe there is nothing holding the control arm from moving front to back on the pin. That is what the strut rod does....That's why I disagreed.
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I've tried that argument, it doesn't work. I'm not sure what OMM thinks the strut rods are there for, but keeping the LCA from moving back and forth isn't it. I'm serious, he doesn't think the purpose of the strut rod is to locate the end of the LCA. Which is why he always talks about how he shows customers with poly LCA bushings that their LCA's can fall off. You know, after he disconnects the strut rods, breaks the LCA's loose from the spindles, removes the shocks, the torsion bars, the sway bar, etc. Because we all know that if we had a simultaneous strut rod, lower ball joint, torsion bar, sway bar and shock failure that the rubber in the original LCA bushing would hold the LCA on the car. Not that it would matter with the tire folded up in the wheel well after the spindle was detached from the LCA, but what the hell.
 
fishmarket said:
Actually, I disagreed in post 47 and never retracted it. It was in reference to the fact that you believe there is nothing holding the control arm from moving front to back on the pin. That is what the strut rod does....That's why I disagreed.
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72bluNblu said:
Heim joints bud, they're called heims. And yours work the same way that every other heim ever made does. Which is to say that the aftermarket adjustable strut rods work the same exact way as yours do (without the K member butchery).

And of course, more pictures of that butchered K member that has never seen a single mile on the track or the street. But I'm sure it's the best one ever made. When yoint, torsion bar, sway bar and shock failure that the rubber in the original LCA bushing would hold the LCA on the car. Not that it would matter with the tire folded up in the wheel well after the spindle was detached from the LCA, but what the hell.
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That particular butchered K-member wasn't use. But you will find several on other cars. Its done for pan clearance and for reasons I gave. This car has the same butchered K-member. Plus many more built here at Ray Bartons in Pa. 68 Hemi cars have to use original suspension parts on an SS car in that class. They can be modified but have to be original. You are really an A$$. But mental people can't help themselves. Barton would grab you by the seat of your pants and throw you out the Door. Note the same K-member in this 68 SS car. This whole Dart is butchered in your eyes. But your piece of **** ******** blue challenger is the cats meow.



Steve 067.JPG


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Oldmanmopar said:
I order them at NAPA . He is a relative he gets these for me. I don't know numbers I just tell him what I am looking for.
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Understood.
Next time you order the NAPA branded bushings for a 73-76 A body a picture of the packaging/part number would be awesome, thanks.
 
Not the MOOG, got those.
I'm asking about the NAPA branded part number for 73-76.
 
I understand the process you go through. Pretty much the same.
I'm asking for the NAPA part number for 73 to 76 strut rod bushings.
Any NAPA's in my area only have the 67 to 72 one piece and sell it as 67 to 76.
They don't show a 73 to 76 piece online or on the phone when I called.
They can't find it in their books so they can't order them.
If I had the part number then it might be available to order.
They know the MOOG numbers for both.
If there's another option out there that fits/functions it would be good info to have.
 
No, I'm not asking how Googles does it. Might be interesting though...
I'm asking for the part number for the NAPA 73-76 A body rubber strut rod bushing you mentioned getting.
Not the MOOG. Got those on the shelf.
Thanks.
 
Oldmanmopar said:
Explain to me how the strut rod attached to the outside of the lower control arm holds the inside of the lower control arm from moving. Am I missing something here. And then with a swivel on the strut rod yet.
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Ok, this is against my better judgment but sure, I'll explain again.

First, a heim joint is not a "swivel". As you know a heim joint articulates on a semi-spherical end, which allows a range of movement around that end. Probably the most important aspect of a heim isn't the movement it allows, it's the movement it DOESN'T allow. Namely, a heim does not allow any in/out motion along the axis with the threaded end- the long axis. With an adjustable strut rod, the forward mount is attached directly to the K frame, the heim pivots on a horizontal bolt. The rear mount is bolted directly to the LCA. The fixed length of the strut rod itself can't change because of the way it's attached- The forward mount doesn't move, the heim has no play along the long axis, and the rear end is bolted solidly to the LCA. The only fore/aft movement of the LCA with respect to the K frame is because of the arc that the strut rod can move in. Without the LCA the strut rod can swing freely up and down, and to a lesser extent because of the limits of the heim, toward and away from the frame .But the LCA itself is constrained- it pivots up and down on the LCA pin. The pin is bolted solidly in the K frame, it doesn't move. So other than rotating on the pin, the LCA is well constrained from moving in/out from the frame, the bushing has to be compressed and there's very little room to do that even with rubber, and less compression with poly or delrin. Between the constrained strut rod and the constrained LCA you can't swing the strut rod in/out from the frame any significant distance to create an arc that would move the LCA closer to the K. So, the vertical arc is the only way the strut rods pulls or pushes the LCA.

Note all of that is basically true for a stock strut rod and bushing. The strut rod can pivot around the bushings. Its arc is limited by the resistance of the bushings, and although by itself the strut rod can swing in/out from the frame without the LCA attached it really can't move any more in that direction beyond the small amount of compression of the LCA bushing. The only difference is that the OE rubber strut rod bushings can be compressed along the long axis of the strut rod so the length of the strut rod between the K and LCA can change in that direction. So with the rubber strut rod bushings the LCA can be pushed and pulled fore/aft by the arc of the strut rod as well as the compression of the strut rod bushings along the long axis.

Next up is, how does the strut rod hold the inside of the LCA from moving. Well, where is all of the force applied to the LCA? It's at the lower ball joint, via the wheel loading from the spindle. All the force acting on the LCA starts at the ball joint. So, any fore/aft force acting on the LCA has to be at the ball joint end, period. What is solidly mounted to the LCA only 3" away from the ball joint? The strut rod. So the better question is, how, with all the force acting on the ball joint end, and with a strut rod attached to the LCA only 3" from that, does the inside end of the LCA move fore and aft at all? With the rubber strut rod bushings, the bushings can compress so the LCA can shift forward and back with the compression of the rubber bushing. That movement is completely eliminated by an adjustable strut rod, the heim does not allow motion in that direction. Which brings us to the arc that the strut rod moves in pushing/pulling on the LCA. And here's the deal on that, there's a reason the strut rod isn't perpendicular to the LCA. By being at an angle, the fore/aft movement that's created by the arc is only a component of the change in distance that comes from the arc. So, any push/pull on the LCA from the strut rod is very minimal, because it's not pushing or pulling perpendicular to the LCA, or in the fore/aft direction. It was designed that way exactly for that reason, because we all know that fore/aft movement of the LCA is caster change. Some of that arc is pulling the LCA toward the frame, which is constrained by the LCA pivot and bushing.

And even all of that is somewhat dependent on ride height. Why? Well, because if the strut rod is parallel to the ground at ride height, it's at the center of its arc. Which means it is as long as it will ever be. So when the LCA travels up and down, it doesn't push the LCA back any, it pulls it. The only way that the strut rod pushes back on the LCA is if the ride height is set so the strut rod isn't at the center of its arc at ride height. And that is why suspension geometry is so important for handling. This is my car at ride height. Take a look at the strut rod. The LCA will not move aft away from the LCA pin. If LCA moves fore/aft at all, it will be pulled against the LCA bushing.

IMG_9159.jpeg


Oldmanmopar said:
That particular butchered K-member wasn't use. But you will find several on other cars. Its done for pan clearance and for reasons I gave. This car has the same butchered K-member. Plus many more built here at Ray Bartons in Pa. 68 Hemi cars have to use original suspension parts on an SS car in that class. They can be modified but have to be original. You are really an A$$. But mental people can't help themselves. Barton would grab you by the seat of your pants and throw you out the Door. Note the same K-member in this 68 SS car. This whole Dart is butchered in your eyes. But your piece of **** ******** blue challenger is the cats meow.



View attachment 1715580634

View attachment 1715580635

View attachment 1715580636

View attachment 1715580637
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My "**** ********" Challenger has gone over 70k street miles as a daily driver with parts you claim don’t even work. You let me know when any of that drag race only stuff does that. That butchered K of yours wouldn't survive a weekend with the 275/35/18's and 1.12" torsion bars on the front of my car.

And "**** ********?? Buddy you've got issues.

Jimacuda said:
I understand the process you go through. Pretty much the same.
I'm asking for the NAPA part number for 73 to 76 strut rod bushings.
Any NAPA's in my area only have the 67 to 72 one piece and sell it as 67 to 76.
They don't show a 73 to 76 piece online or on the phone when I called.
They can't find it in their books so they can't order them.
If I had the part number then it might be available to order.
They know the MOOG numbers for both.
If there's another option out there that fits/functions it would be good info to have.
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Yes, but OMM doesn't understand or believe that anyone else can't call his personal contact at Napa. He doesn't get that even going into a store doesn't mean that the person at the counter will be able to figure out the cross reference guide that most Napa's don't even carry anymore. Or that the computer lists the wrong single piece bushing for the later strut rods.

And worse yet, he doesn't even know how he got the parts he did. He just got lucky because he has a contact high enough up at Napa to figure out that somewhere in a warehouse there's a pile of old Moog bushings. Moog doesn't even have them at the moment.

You won't get an answer from him, he doesn't have it. He didn't even have the part numbers for the strut rod bushings he was recommending when he started this thread, you figured that out.
 
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72bluNblu said:
Ok, this is against my better judgment but sure, I'll explain again.

First, a heim joint is not a "swivel". As you know a heim joint articulates on a semi-spherical end, which allows a range of movement around that end. Probably the most important aspect of a heim isn't the movement it allows, it's the movement it DOESN'T allow. Namely, a heim does not allow any in/out motion along the axis with the threaded end- the long axis. With an adjustable strut rod, the forward mount is attached directly to the K frame, the heim pivots on a horizontal bolt. The rear mount is bolted directly to the LCA. The fixed length of the strut rod itself can't change because of the way it's attached- The forward mount doesn't move, the heim has no play along the long axis, and the rear end is bolted solidly to the LCA. The only fore/aft movement of the LCA with respect to the K frame is because of the arc that the strut rod can move in. Without the LCA the strut rod can swing freely up and down, and to a lesser extent because of the limits of the heim, toward and away from the frame .But the LCA itself is constrained- it pivots up and down on the LCA pin. The pin is bolted solidly in the K frame, it doesn't move. So other than rotating on the pin, the LCA is well constrained from moving in/out from the frame, the bushing has to be compressed and there's very little room to do that even with rubber, and less compression with poly or delrin. Between the constrained strut rod and the constrained LCA you can't swing the strut rod in/out from the frame any significant distance to create an arc that would move the LCA closer to the K. So, the vertical arc is the only way the strut rods pulls or pushes the LCA.

Note all of that is basically true for a stock strut rod and bushing. The strut rod can pivot around the bushings. Its arc is limited by the resistance of the bushings, and although by itself the strut rod can swing in/out from the frame without the LCA attached it really can't move any more in that direction beyond the small amount of compression of the LCA bushing. The only difference is that the OE rubber strut rod bushings can be compressed along the long axis of the strut rod so the length of the strut rod between the K and LCA can change in that direction. So with the rubber strut rod bushings the LCA can be pushed and pulled fore/aft by the arc of the strut rod as well as the compression of the strut rod bushings along the long axis.

Next up is, how does the strut rod hold the inside of the LCA from moving. Well, where is all of the force applied to the LCA? It's at the lower ball joint, via the wheel loading from the spindle. All the force acting on the LCA starts at the ball joint. So, any fore/aft force acting on the LCA has to be at the ball joint end, period. What is solidly mounted to the LCA only 3" away from the ball joint? The strut rod. So the better question is, how, with all the force acting on the ball joint end, and with a strut rod attached to the LCA only 3" from that, does the inside end of the LCA move fore and aft at all? With the rubber strut rod bushings, the bushings can compress so the LCA can shift forward and back with the compression of the rubber bushing. That movement is completely eliminated by an adjustable strut rod, the heim does not allow motion in that direction. Which brings us to the arc that the strut rod moves in pushing/pulling on the LCA. And here's the deal on that, there's a reason the strut rod isn't perpendicular to the LCA. By being at an angle, the fore/aft movement that's created by the arc is only a component of the change in distance that comes from the arc. So, any push/pull on the LCA from the strut rod is very minimal, because it's not pushing or pulling perpendicular to the LCA, or in the fore/aft direction. It was designed that way exactly for that reason, because we all know that fore/aft movement of the LCA is caster change. Some of that arc is pulling the LCA toward the frame, which is constrained by the LCA pivot and bushing.

And even all of that is somewhat dependent on ride height. Why? Well, because if the strut rod is parallel to the ground at ride height, it's at the center of its arc. Which means it is as long as it will ever be. So when the LCA travels up and down, it doesn't push the LCA back any, it pulls it. The only way that the strut rod pushes back on the LCA is if the ride height is set so the strut rod isn't at the center of its arc at ride height. And that is why suspension geometry is so important for handling. This is my car at ride height. Take a look at the strut rod. The LCA will not move aft away from the LCA pin. If LCA moves fore/aft at all, it will be pulled against the LCA bushing.

View attachment 1715581293



My "**** ********" Challenger has gone over 70k street miles as a daily driver with parts you claim don’t even work. You let me know when any of that drag race only stuff does that. That butchered K of yours wouldn't survive a weekend with the 275/35/18's and 1.12" torsion bars on the front of my car.

And "**** ********?? Buddy you've got issues.



Yes, but OMM doesn't understand or believe that anyone else can't call his personal contact at Napa. He doesn't get that even going into a store doesn't mean that the person at the counter will be able to figure out the cross reference guide that most Napa's don't even carry anymore. Or that the computer lists the wrong single piece bushing for the later strut rods.

And worse yet, he doesn't even know how he got the parts he did. He just got lucky because he has a contact high enough up at Napa to figure out that somewhere in a warehouse there's a pile of old Moog bushings. Moog doesn't even have them at the moment.

You won't get an answer from him, he doesn't have it. He didn't even have the part numbers for the strut rod bushings he was recommending when he started this thread, you figured that out.
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not worth my time
 
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You may be old but you sure have some growing up to do.


Oldmanmopar said:
Don't you ever give up. I really don't give a **** what you say any more. I have the bushings here on my desk and more on the way. Its not my fault you have no friends that will get you parts

My truck has over 270K with 17's WOW. How about that. And I drive it off road ,on road and in the water WOW. How about that! Your **** blue challenger looks as clean underneath as it does on top. If I had your car I would sell it . Scrap is up right now. WOW How about that. LMFAO. If you wouldn't be such and A$$ I would send you a set for my cost. WOW How about that. Write another book who gives a ****. I have what works for me . Now you go get your own.
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72bluNblu said:
At the strut rods that's completely true. The stiffer poly bushing resists up and down movement, which adds resistance to the LCA moving up and down. It also resists fore/aft movement better than rubber strut rod bushings, but the added resistance to the LCA travel outweighs the benefit in the other direction. Which is why I have always recommended adjustable strut rods. They move freely up and down and do not allow fore/aft movement.

At the LCA it's the opposite. A properly lubricated poly bushing at the LCA will have less resistance than a rubber bushing. You literally have to twist the rubber to move the LCA up and down with the stock design.

Now, if you don't lubricate the poly LCA bushing it's different story. You have to understand the differences in the material and how the bushing functions. Unlike what most people think you can't just slap the poly bushings in there, never maintain them, and expect them to work properly. Maintain them properly though and they'll perform better and last longer. But you can't treat them like rubber bushings, because they aren't.
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72 Have you used PST Polygraphite LCA bushings? Apparently they self lubricate to some degree.
Thinking of putting a set in my 67 Barracuda
 
72bluNblu said:
Heim joints bud, they're called heims. And yours work the same way that every other heim ever made does. Which is to say that the aftermarket adjustable strut rods work the same exact way as yours do (without the K member butchery).

And of course, more pictures of that butchered K member that has never seen a single mile on the track or the street. But I'm sure it's the best one ever made. When you extended those strut rods and relocated the pivot point forward of the K you did check to make sure the resulting larger arc of the strut rod at the K frame would actually clear the K frame itself right? And of course a single pass weld on one side with no reinforcement is strong enough to support the strut rod, even with a larger hole cut out in the K.



Yeah, so he's the guy we should actually be talking to. It is interesting that it's the Moog numbers and not a Napa # on those invoices.

Again, congrats on getting them, somewhere there's a Napa warehouse with some remaining Moog stock. But you can't currently get the K7068's even from Moog themselves (you can order direct from Moog too!), so, whatever you're getting is leftover stock. Hopefully it wasn't recall stuff, that's probably why the new stuff is currently on hold.



Man I hate to break it to you, but OMM doesn't do logic. He frequently contradicts himself on the adjustable strut rods, of course he made his own but everyone else's are trash. And he's recommended the late model strut rods before too, but since I mentioned that I have a set he says they're junk in this thread. He's even said recently that poly bushings at the UCA are fine. new front end parts Which is funny, because the OE rubber UCA bushings are constructed just like the OE LCA bushings with friction fit rubber. Poly UCA bushings need to be lubricated just like poly LCA bushings, they spin on their pivots just like the poly LCA bushings do.



What's that now? Seems like you can both see them and get to them just fine. I mean, you'd know that if you'd ever installed them. Sure they aren't the easiest thing to get at to add grease, but they're definitely not the hardest thing to grease on these cars. And then there's the fact that without a boot you don't want to actually add grease, as it will cause dirt to stick to the heim and cause premature wear. The dry-lube you'd want to use on an exposed heim is usually in an aerosol can with a little spray tube for the nozzle, so, that's super easy to do. Again, I would think you'd know this.
View attachment 1715580630



I've tried that argument, it doesn't work. I'm not sure what OMM thinks the strut rods are there for, but keeping the LCA from moving back and forth isn't it. I'm serious, he doesn't think the purpose of the strut rod is to locate the end of the LCA. Which is why he always talks about how he shows customers with poly LCA bushings that their LCA's can fall off. You know, after he disconnects the strut rods, breaks the LCA's loose from the spindles, removes the shocks, the torsion bars, the sway bar, etc. Because we all know that if we had a simultaneous strut rod, lower ball joint, torsion bar, sway bar and shock failure that the rubber in the original LCA bushing would hold the LCA on the car. Not that it would matter with the tire folded up in the wheel well after the spindle was detached from the LCA, but what the hell.
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I have had some experience with heims used in suspension systems.
IMHO
Yes - if set up correctly they are easy to adjust, in particular say for changing conditions at the track.
Yes - they do allow for freedom of movement when tuned correctly.
Yes - they look cool.
No - they do not last long, even the really tough expensive ones.
No - they are not quiet, they do tend to rattle in some applications.
Unless you are into some serious driving like autocross I cant recommend them for your average street machine.
 
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