Waking Up a Turd

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Mile Maker said:
Stroking it is not yet in my plans.... I am still looking for a cheap solution.
I will be weighing all the costs as i go.
Ive also thought about a junkyard Magnum swap. If i find too many parts i cannot reuse, i will be weighing all my options.
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I didn’t see where you had the initial/total timing set. Your current combo should be faster as it sits. 60 ft times is killing it. My old stock ‘89 D150 with 360, single exhaust and 3.21 gears went 15.3’s. Just to give you a comparison for your potential
 
I wouldn’t worry too much yet about exactly what to do with it until you get it apart to see what you’re really working with.

Unless something has changed recently, I don’t think there are any LAX heads still available.
For a “budget” type of performance head, the Speedmasters are probably the best bang for the buck at the moment....... especially if they do the Black Friday sale this year.

Without reinventing the wheel, what pistons are in the motor, and what the actual CR they will yield with whatever heads you end up with will provide some direction for the cam choice.

That being said.......If the motor really has the 484 cam in it, it’s too big for what you’re trying to do.

The intake really has to go.
 
forphorty said:
The Offy dual port is a TERRIBLE intake.[/QUOTe That intake is definitely a mismatch for that cam you have and probably what you want from the truck. I used the dual port for pickups when I wanted low end grunt and they work well for that but they are not much good in higher RPMs. Many better offerings for the job at hand.
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318willrun said:
I didn’t see where you had the initial/total timing set. Your current combo should be faster as it sits. 60 ft times is killing it. My old stock ‘89 D150 with 360, single exhaust and 3.21 gears went 15.3’s. Just to give you a comparison for your potential
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He mentioned 18* initial. I’d like to know if he limited the total after bumping it. Or, maybe it was curved previously?
 
As bad as the Offy intake is for a moderate to full performance build, you will be able to sell it to someone in the RV and towing crowd. They’re like an Edelbrock SP2P, made for fuel mileage and maximum torque (some in the RV community say it makes more bottom end torque than any other manifold ever made) in the idle to 2500 rpm range. But yes, it’s definitely out of place here.
 
SpeedThrills said:
He mentioned 18* initial. I’d like to know if he limited the total after bumping it. Or, maybe it was curved previously?
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I have a mopar performance distributor. the one with vacuum advance.
initial timing at 18 deg total at 34. Im trying to remember when it was all in, I think at 3100 or 3200. I never changed springs, just limited the centrifugal.
Ignition box is a FBO unit.

I had the distributor cap off this morning, and thought i would check how much play was in the timing chain. I had 9 deg of movement before the rotor started to turn. Not good. I did this once before, while i was initially getting the engine running, and i dont remember that much play. I wonder if it had the stock style timing set, with the nylon gears.

If cam timing is retarded because of the worn chain, That could be some of my lower cranking pressure issues, Not?
 
Mile Maker said:
Im In Medicine Hat AB. 2260 Feet.
This engine was built more than 25 yrs ago, And also sat for 20. I suspect there was some rust on the cylinder walls.
As i was first driving this truck, and doing some tuning, There was more blowby than i wanted to see. I did a compression test at that time.
I averaged 130PSI. with 2 cylinders at 125, and one at 140.
Since this compression test, i think some of the blowby has cleaned up.
This winter i want to open it up, and at least put some new rings on it, with a fresh hone. Im also debating on some of the oiling system mods, as described in this forum. Drilling out the passages, and slotting the bearings. If nothing else it will make me feel good.

its been a couple of weeks since i raced, But i think it just shifted to 3RD at the finish line. I recognize that i might shave off some time with improving my launch, and shifting a bit higher.

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I wouldn't do the oil mods especially at your rpm there meant more for endurance 7000-8000 rpm plus. I wouldn't overly worry about port volume, speedmaster is probably the best deal if you want to step up, if your heads are fine condition I would just reuse maybe with a little port bowl clean up nothing fancy. Just cause you got 10:1 piston doesn't mean you got 10:1 if the guy that built it didn't do the right steps in getting it like zero deck right gasket thickness right sized chambers. If you go speedmaster or other closed chamber heads you'd probably need different pistons especially if stepping down in cam which you should cause CR will probably be too high.

Didn't hear anything about what stall your using ?

Is your truck hooking up well ?

Since you got to tear into the engine at least to freshen it up, At least choice a better cam for your application, something that works well in the 1500-1800 to 5000-5500 range hydraulic roller would help to keep bottom end while extending top end. Moving up to 408 will make you more power in the 1500-5500 range, A good stall will help a lot, I'd leave gearing to last to fine tune plus 3.23 to 3.55 isn't a huge difference and might not be as helpful if you have to shift out of 2nd. Even a small shot of nitrous would help cause you'd pick up speed without the need for more rpm therefore lowering the gear ratio needed. Overdrive would be also be a good thing allow optimal gear choice with acceptable highway rpms.

Trick with a street engine is to extend the powerband rpm far as possible but try keeping and/or try not to scraffice too much 1500-2500 rpm to gain 4500-5500 rpm, .09-1:1 hp per cid is streetable muscle car type power peak should fall around 4500-5000 rpm, 1-1.1:1 hp:cid is more hot street 5000-5500 rpm peak power after that it's more serious street strip and deep gears and high stall and everything else that goes along with it.
 
You can probably add close to 100 LB FT of torque through camshaft timing, ignition timing and a different intake manifold, leaving the basic long block slap alone. I didn't read the whole thread, but I'm sure that's been outlined already.
 
Mile Maker said:
I have a mopar performance distributor. the one with vacuum advance.
initial timing at 18 deg total at 34. Im trying to remember when it was all in, I think at 3100 or 3200. I never changed springs, just limited the centrifugal.
Ignition box is a FBO unit.

I had the distributor cap off this morning, and thought i would check how much play was in the timing chain. I had 9 deg of movement before the rotor started to turn. Not good. I did this once before, while i was initially getting the engine running, and i dont remember that much play. I wonder if it had the stock style timing set, with the nylon gears.

If cam timing is retarded because of the worn chain, That could be some of my lower cranking pressure issues, Not?
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That's a little soft for a hot ignition curve. It should be all in by about 2500. Also small blocks generally perform best at "around" 36 total and "around" 20 "or so" initial. You are fairly close there but you could stand to be all in a good bit sooner. That along with the intake change and advancing the camshaft timing will help tremendously.
 
I would like to thank everyone who has contributed.
You have given me a lot to think about, and steered me in the right directions.
Pulling this turd will be my winter project, I wont get to it until after hunting season for sure.
1) Im going to pull it, disassemble and figure out exactly what i have. knowing that will determine the course of action. But some things i do know will happen.
2) It will get a new camshaft more suited for street duty (even though it sounds fantastic now) Im going to entertain the idea of a hyd roller, and weigh the pros and cons of it. and of course a new timing chain.
3) Intake manifold. Likely a performer RPM, or a LD340. I kind of dig the retro theme of the truck, a LD340 would be great. I dont suppose anyone has one to sell?
4) check out the heads. first option, Rebuild the J heads with 2.02 valves, and try my hand at some mild port work.
second option: If I do determine i need more compression, swap the heads for something with a smaller chamber, Again this will depend on what pistons are in it Likely Edelbrock or Indy.
5) sometime in the future, Source an OD transmission, and regear the diff. Figure out what stall converter i have now, Might be a great time for a swap while the engine is out.

All of that should make this truck fun. I will add to this threat with some of my findings as i go. Hopefully the bottom end is salvageable. If not i might be looking for another core to start with.
 
Sounds good.
You may want to test stall speed while it’s still running. Holding the brakes, apply throttle and see what it’ll rpm to. Should give you a rough idea.
 
SpeedThrills said:
Sounds good.
You may want to test stall speed while it’s still running. Holding the brakes, apply throttle and see what it’ll rpm to. Should give you a rough idea.
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Generally a bad idea that shouldn’t be done more than once in its life time or at all. It is possible to damage the torque converter and maybe the transmission this way.

Your more concerned about where the converter will stall at its flash point. Which is where you floor it and look at the tach to see how high the RPMs go up and where the vehicle catches on and moves. This is really the only meaningful thing that matters.


Mile Maker said:
2) It will get a new camshaft more suited for street duty (even though it sounds fantastic now) Im going to entertain the idea of a hyd roller, and weigh the pros and cons of it. and of course a new timing chain.
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IMO, and as for myself, I wouldn’t spend the time and money to convert an LA to a roller, Hyd. or solid unless it was to be a mean street machine. A good solid flat tappet cam will rock and at a heck of a cost savings.
3) Intake manifold. Likely a performer RPM, or a LD340. I kind of dig the retro theme of the truck, a LD340 would be great. I dont suppose anyone has one to sell?
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Go straight to the RPM.
4) check out the heads. first option, Rebuild the J heads with 2.02 valves, and try my hand at some mild port work.
second option: If I do determine i need more compression, swap the heads for something with a smaller chamber, Again this will depend on what pistons are in it Likely Edelbrock or Indy.
Click to expand...
I would not waste time rebuilding stock heads since there price vs performance value is at the bottom of the tank. Ether the Edelbrock head or a Black Friday sale on Speed Master heads would be a very good choice. The IMM heads are an excellent idea IMO.
5) sometime in the future, Source an OD transmission, and regear the diff. Figure out what stall converter i have now, Might be a great time for a swap while the engine is out.

All of that should make this truck fun. I will add to this threat with some of my findings as i go. Hopefully the bottom end is salvageable. If not i might be looking for another core to start with.
Click to expand...

I think looking for another core to build while you drive what you have is a good idea. If you have the room as many do not. If you can, or if it is possible, you can break in the engine on a stand and give it a general (primary) tune on the carb and adjust the distributor to where you’ll like it.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Generally a bad idea that shouldn’t be done more than once in its life time or at all. It is possible to damage the torque converter and maybe the transmission this way.

Your more concerned about where the converter will stall at its flash point. Which is where you floor it and look at the tach to see how high the RPMs go up and where the vehicle catches on and moves. This is really the only meaningful thing that matters.
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I didn’t recommend flashpoint check because the OP has street tires. It won’t dead hook to see the actual flash point.
A quick power brake won’t hurt anything. It’s been done millions of times. A flash point check isn’t much different, and that’s done every time you launch.
 
Geez Rumble, at least give me a reason for your disagreement. We could maybe both learn something. Not to mention others that might read this.
:)
 
I wrote what I wrote and you argued otherwise and I disagreed. End of story. No harm no foul. I just don’t agree with what you wrote. I stated my reason.

What else is there? IDK?
But it’s all good here.
 
AJ/FormS said:
The stall test won't be meaningful anyway, with that "turd" engine.
as compared to what it's gonna put out later.
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LOL It just needs a 3500 stall converter and a 4.10 gear to make the cam work. :poke::poke::lol:
 
I like that idea, add a super charger... LMAO
 
toolmanmike said:
LOL It just needs a 3500 stall converter and a 4.10 gear to make the cam work. :poke::poke::lol:
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Or a guy could do what I did;
Commando 3.09 4-speed with a GVod used as a gear splitter; the Ratios are 3.09-2.41-1.92-1.50. This wouldda worked pretty good with my 292/292/108 cam.
With 3.55s the road gears come to;
10.97-8.56-6.82-5.32...... 2.77 ....... Compare that to the factory box and 4.30s
11.44-8.26-6.02-4.30 .......... and compare that to say;
10.05-5.95-4.10 ...with an A904/4.10s, before adding the TM that occurs inside the TC.
 
There was a lot of good information in the previous posts. I used to have the same truck with a 360 and it last ran at Medicine Hat 10 or so years ago, its a good track.
25 years ago I don't remember to many 10.1 pistons readily available , TRW Domes , Diamond , and some flat tops (Claimers , used a lot of these)were common and KBs were coming out or were quite new from what I remember.
The best thing to do is figure out your intended use ,highway , cruiser , track or Friday nights , from there your tire , gear , and converter. A good converter is going to cost so factor that in.
The truck I mentioned had 4.30 with 28 inch ET streets and I drove it around the city for a season and it was fine for me but each to their own. Good luck with the build!!
 
I ran that "Roadrunner" cam in my 68 340 with 3.91's and 205/70R14's and it would flat roast the tires through 2nd of a 904 w/MP 175K convertor. Loved that cam under a Holley strip Dominator and a Demon 650. Probably could have run a larger carb but it was plenty fast. That combo under a truck would be wheelspin. Kinda soft on a roll in but it woke up fast enough.
 
So, Its been a while, But i finally pulled the engine apart. And found a few surprises.....

First surprise, Yes they are flat top pistons. No they are not 10:1. They are 8:1. Factory 3418919 pistons. Still is a standard 4" bore. they sit down at least .080" Makes my 125 - 135 PSI compression test make sense. I imagine this would have a hard time putting out 250 HP with that low of compression.
Second: There is evidence that all of the exhaust valves hit the pistons at some point. Maybe it had been over reved?
Third: There is a seal from a machine shop on the cylinder heads. Likely they have been rebuilt at some point. Maybe because it was over reved? Look like regular J heads with the 1.88 inlet valve. Have not been ported.
Forth: It has a Mopar windage tray.
Fifth: #7 rod is bent. I found this out whilst trying to measure how far down the pistons sit. One side was down .092 the other side of the same piston down .102
Sixth: There is some rust pitting in several cylinders, from the engine sitting. Not really a surprise though.
At this point, i don't trust any of the deck height measurements. But i do know it will likely need to be decked once i gather some new pistons and rods.
Now i need to decide whether to build it with hypereutectic , or go with some forged units.
I still toy with the idea of putting a centrifugal blower on it at some point.... So overbuilding it now would be an easy way to prep for the future.
There will be no cheap, throw rings and bearings at it anymore. It needs a major.
I'm still trying to figure out what cam was in it. I measured intake and exhaust center lines, but never measured duration, because i'm a dumbass..... There are no part numbers on the cam. There is some purple / red paint splashed on the cam, near the distributor gear, But also some white paint further up. centerlines of 107 and 115 deg. measured .324 lift, with a 1.5 rocker should be .486.
Unfortunatly that does not match any of the Mopar purple cams. Most closely matches the
280° Hydraulic: P4452992

IMG_2929.JPG


IMG_2931.JPG


IMG_2935.JPG


IMG_2936.JPG


IMG_2934.JPG
 
Mile Maker said:
So, Its been a while, But i finally pulled the engine apart. And found a few surprises.....

First surprise, Yes they are flat top pistons. No they are not 10:1. They are 8:1. Factory 3418919 pistons. Still is a standard 4" bore. they sit down at least .080" Makes my 125 - 135 PSI compression test make sense. I imagine this would have a hard time putting out 250 HP with that low of compression.
Second: There is evidence that all of the exhaust valves hit the pistons at some point. Maybe it had been over reved?
Third: There is a seal from a machine shop on the cylinder heads. Likely they have been rebuilt at some point. Maybe because it was over reved? Look like regular J heads with the 1.88 inlet valve. Have not been ported.
Forth: It has a Mopar windage tray.
Fifth: #7 rod is bent. I found this out whilst trying to measure how far down the pistons sit. One side was down .092 the other side of the same piston down .102
Sixth: There is some rust pitting in several cylinders, from the engine sitting. Not really a surprise though.
At this point, i don't trust any of the deck height measurements. But i do know it will likely need to be decked once i gather some new pistons and rods.
Now i need to decide whether to build it with hypereutectic , or go with some forged units.
I still toy with the idea of putting a centrifugal blower on it at some point.... So overbuilding it now would be an easy way to prep for the future.
There will be no cheap, throw rings and bearings at it anymore. It needs a major.
I'm still trying to figure out what cam was in it. I measured intake and exhaust center lines, but never measured duration, because i'm a dumbass..... There are no part numbers on the cam. There is some purple / red paint splashed on the cam, near the distributor gear, But also some white paint further up. centerlines of 107 and 115 deg. measured .324 lift, with a 1.5 rocker should be .486.
Unfortunatly that does not match any of the Mopar purple cams. Most closely matches the
280° Hydraulic: P4452992

View attachment 1715684820

View attachment 1715684821

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View attachment 1715684823

View attachment 1715684824
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The number 7 Rod probably isn’t bent. That’s most likely the deck is off that far.
 
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