TF 998/999 parts into push button 904 ?

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rustytoolss

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Can the internal parts (drums/clutch packs/planetary gears/ lower low gear set ) be installed into a early push button 904 ? I know that I would have to retain the push button valve body. I doubt that it could be converted to Lock Up because of keeping the push button valve body.
 
Unless something used a different spline count somewhere, I sure don't see why not.
 
Some of the A998 parts will fit; others won't. If you want to run the wide-ratio gearset, you would need to use a certain mix of parts off various-year 904s to make it all fit/work in the trans and still accept the pre-'68 small-nose torque converter which is the only type that can be used with a '67-down crankshaft in the engine, unless the crank's rear counterbore is enlarged to accept the '68-up large-nose torque converter. I'm sorry, I no longer remember the recipe as far as which specific parts from what specific transmissions you need to gather up and assemble. I did this a few decades ago because I was convinced the wide-ratio gearset would make a big improvement in my '65. I was very, very wrong; I regretted it a couple of minutes into the first test drive, and only stopped hating the transmission in that car once I yanked it and swapped in a trans with stock-ratio gearset and without the hodgepodge of parts.

The wide-ratio gearset was intended to cope with super-tall 2.45 and 2.26 rear axles Chrysler were putting in passenger cars because they didn't have a 4-speed overdrive automatic like Ford and GM did. The wide-ratio gears didn't work well for me in front of my 3.23s, and even when I tried to save the project by swapping a 2.76 centre chunk into the 8-3/4" rear, that just made it suck somewhat less.
 
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Can the internal parts (drums/clutch packs/planetary gears/ lower low gear set ) be installed into a early push button 904 ? I know that I would have to retain the push button valve body. I doubt that it could be converted to Lock Up because of keeping the push button valve body.
Not the way you are thinking they would.
 
Some of the A998 parts will fit; others won't. If you want to run the wide-ratio gearset, you would need to use a certain mix of parts off various-year 904s to make it all fit/work in the trans and still accept the pre-'68 small-nose torque converter which is the only type that can be used with a '67-down crankshaft in the engine, unless the crank's rear counterbore is enlarged to accept the '68-up large-nose torque converter. I'm sorry, I no longer remember the recipe as far as which specific parts from what specific transmissions you need to gather up and assemble. I did this a few decades ago because I was convinced the wide-ratio gearset would make a big improvement in my '65. I was very, very wrong; I regretted it a couple of minutes into the first test drive, and only stopped hating the transmission in that car once I yanked it and swapped in a trans with stock-ratio gearset and without the hodgepodge of parts.

The wide-ratio gearset was intended to cope with super-tall 2.45 and 2.26 rear axles Chrysler was putting in passenger cars because they didn't have a 4-speed overdrive automatic like Ford and GM did. The wide-ratio gears didn't work well for me in front of my 3.23s, and even when I tried to save the project by swapping a 2.76 centre chunk into the 8-3/4" rear, that just made it suck somewhat less.
Thanks for that information. Sorry you had to find out the hard way ! But you saved me the pain of doing it .
 
Yeah, the splines where the planetaries sit,on the 998/999 are different, so the entire geartrain has to be swapped as a set including the output shaft. And that means you would lose the rear pump. Furthermore, I have no idea if the case can be made to work like that.

The ratios of the A999 are
2.74-1.54-1.00 with "wide" splits of .562-.649. The A904 is
2.45-1.45-1.00 with "close" splits of .592-.69
Not all engines are happy about that. It doesn't look like much on paper, but with a stock lo-stall TC the engine is fine in first gear, but second, if shifted too soon, bogs down.
I put a 2800TC on mine and then it was pretty good, and I could run the next lower rear gear for hiway fuel-economy.
 
Yeah, the splines where the planetaries sit,on the 998/999 are different, so the entire geartrain has to be swapped as a set including the output shaft. And that means you would lose the rear pump. Furthermore, I have no idea if the case can be made to work like that.

The ratios of the A999 are
2.74-1.54-1.00 with "wide" splits of .562-.649. The A904 is
2.45-1.45-1.00 with "close" splits of .592-.69
Not all engines are happy about that. It doesn't look like much on paper, but with a stock lo-stall TC the engine is fine in first gear, but second, if shifted too soon, bogs down.
I put a 2800TC on mine and then it was pretty good, and I could run the next lower rear gear for hiway fuel-economy.
Aren't those the same gear ratios as the A500/42rh ?
 
Aren't those the same gear ratios as the A500/42rh ?
HYUP; the A500 is a 904 with an overdrive strapped onto the back. and
the A518 is a 727 with the same od bolted on.

The overdrive ratio is a .69 . If you can figure out how to engage it manually, I bet you could use it as a splitter at least between 2.74 and 1.54. That .69 od ratio is a pretty sweet number, as overdrives go, but as a splitter, not so good, and you will soon see why
That would give you ratios of
2.74-1.89-1.54- (1.06/1.00-.69), and splits of .69-.815-.69-.943-.69 In this array you can spot the splitter inadequacy, which in the 1-2 split is still better than the A904 with splits of .59/.69
If you gear that for 60 mph @ the power peak in Second-over;
Say you had a 262* cam, and a smogger 8/1-Scr 318/273. That 262* peaks at around 4800 and you can stretch that to 5100 easy enough, and 60mph requires a no-slip ratio of 6.70,
so; 5100@10% slip it would be 6.00,
and 6.00/1.89=a 3.20 ratio,rounds to 3.23s
for a final rpm of around 5110 with 3.23s in second-over; about perfect.
Your starter gear would be 2.74 x3.23=8.85, which you can adjust with stall ......... because you have an overdrive. That makes a two gear runner. and 65=1840

But, with the overdrive;
You could make it a 3-gear runner tire-frying runner,with a short 2-3 split of .815. This would require a rear gear of 3.91s for a final rpm of 5040@10% slip. BadaBoom!.
Your starter gear is now 3.91 x2.74=10.71/dynomite. and you can still cruise at 65=2220 in loc-up! The lo-po 318/273 will spool thru those first THREE ratios rather quickly, and feel like a much bigger engine.
Lest you think otherwise, the new second road gear is ;
3.91 x2.74 x.69=7.39 , compared to;
3.91 x 1.45=5.67, with a regular 904, which is a full gear lower (at 5.67/7.39=.767). For a 904 to have a 7.39 second gear road gear, it would need a 7.39/1.45=5.10 rear gears. Imagine your 318 slamming out with 5.10s; the starter is then 5.1 x2.45=12.50!
But the really big deal is the .815 "2-3" split.
Hitting 5100 at the top of First-over, the R's will fall to 4160 (5100 x.815), which is well up on the power curve, instead of 3020 (5100 x 1.45/2.45) with a regular A904. And I probably don't need to tell you what 3020 with an 8/1, 318/273 sporting a 262* cam feels like. Using this combo, you could even use the stock TC, cuz with a starter of 10.71, your A-body will be moving out briskly, even with the lo-po-318/273.

The full deal with splitting is;
2.74-1.89-1.54-(1.06-1.00)-.69od splits in red. As you can see; Second-over(1.06) and Drive(1.00) are same enough to just pick one. So what you have here is a 5-speed automatic, with a loc-up, that is worth at least another half gear, so I would call it a 5.5.
But it gets better.
Inside the TC, the engine torque gets multiplied hydraulically. This multiplier changes with input torque and with torque differential/mph. At zero mph the multiplier is largest at about 1.8. The faster you go, eventually you will hit the minimum multiplier ratio of about 1.1 or a lil less. But lets go back to Zero mph. When you hit it, it has the same effect as multiplying your rear gear by that 1.8, so your 3.91s, for a small space of time, turn into 7.04s. Then immediately, as the car moves out, that 1.8 ratio ramps down towards the low end, but in First gear you will hit shift rpm before the TC spools down to much lower than say 1.35 . In other words, compared to a manual trans, that TC is an automatic infinitely variable gearbox with a ratio change of about 1.8 to 1.35... in first gear, which is 1.35/1.8=.75 split..., saweeet!
So then, the TC is in fact, a 6th gear; for a total of 6.5 ratios, not counting second-over!
Let's line them up, first as roadgears, using 3.91s;
10.71-6.02-3.91-2.70 ... with splits of
.. .562--.649--.69
Then lets put the TC in there; And I have to take some liberty here with the multiplier cuz I have no idea how it is gonna play out in real life; so
First gear of; 19.27@(1.8) diminishing to say 14.46(@1.35), Then
first-over at say an average of 1.25 in the TC, equals 9.24, then
Second of an average of 1.20, then 7.22, then,
Drive at say 1.15, so 4.50 , then
Overdrive of 2.70 x 1.10= 2.97, and finally
loc-up at 2.70
Lets line them up;
19.27/14.56-9.24-7.22/4.50-2.97-2.70; there you go; splits of
... .76 --- .63 - .78 /.62 - .69 - .91 equals 6.5 gears. Notice how close 2.97 and 2.70 are to the factory gears of 2.94 and 2.76. Hyup, the loc-up is actually closer to a full gear than to a half-gear. So then we have a grand total of SEVEN gear ratios. You can't get much better than that, at the buy-in price of 3.91s plus the A500.

Now all you gotta do is figure out how to engage overdrive at the top of first gear.

In this story, I referenced the 318/273 engine, because, at their power levels, tirespin will be at a MINIMUM, so you can actually measure the ET difference, from a standing start to 60mph. From my experience, a stout 360 on street tires,will just spin the tires the whole way, with or without the splitter, even with 3.55s. So I don't see splitting for a 360 as an advantage,........ unless maybe you built it for fuel economy. So then you would lose one ratio, with SIX still remaining, namely; 2 in first gear with the TC, and 3 more in the box, plus the loc-up. But..... notice that at FullPower, you will rarely use more than 2 gears,3 ratios. Also notice that without splitting, first and second are quite far apart at .562split, so then your lo-compression 273/318 would struggle thru that a bit with late-closing intake valve.
If I was 20 years younger, knowing what I now know, I would put this together in a heart beat.I would never have dinked around with the 4-speed and GVod.
And I have this old 273 in the shed, that, with "Purple-Horny glass-pacs,would sound pretty wicked screaming thru 3 gears to 60mph,lol. Or maybe, a 340 with a 318 top-end/cam........ again. That was pretty wicked in 1976, in the 65V100 wagon,that I then had.
I wonder how much mpg I could get out of that lil 273honey at 65=2220 in loc-up? Hmmmmmmmm

I did a lot of editing in an effort to make it understandable, so I hope it worked; I just get really excited when I get to do math,lol.
 
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The short answer is, the A-998/999 gear set cannot be installed in the cable shifted trans case without extensive machining. However you can install the larger (more plates/discs) clutches/drums, but not the planetary. If installing the larger clutch drums, you will wind up with the larger input shaft (not sure if the small/early input shaft fits the later drum), which will not work with the early converter, and the late converter will not work with the early crankshaft.

PS: I use the complete front section of the later trans, except for the planetarys in my PB transmissions. Then use a custom torque converter that has the small pilot, and the large splines. Remove the rear pump, and use a full manual valve body.
 
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50 years ago my buddy Don and I did transmission and clutch work in a $10/month rented garage in Milwaukee.

Don was a former Chrysler dealer rep who handled customer relations and warranty claims. And he was a top notch trans guy.

Fast forward to today and he'd be lost working on todays transmissions...and I'd be lost right behind him.
 
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50 years ago my buddy Don and I did transmission and clutch work in a $10/month rented garage in Milwaukee.

Don was a former Chrysler dealer rep who handled customer relations and warranty claims. Abd he was a top notch trans guy.

Fast forward to today and he'd be lost working on todays transmissions...and I'd be lost right behind him.
My best friend was a transmission guru. And loved mopars. He died early this year to Liver Cancer. Should have paid more attention and watched more closely when he worked on my 727's...sure miss him...he would have had all the answers to these questions
 
2.74-1.54-1.00 with "wide" splits of .562-.649. The A904 is
2.45-1.45-1.00 with "close" splits of .592-.69
Not all engines are happy about that. It doesn't look like much on paper, but with a stock lo-stall TC the engine is fine in first gear, but second, if shifted too soon, bogs down.
If that's the case , why have so many people installed A500 trans and had such good results ??? just askin .
 
The A500 ratios work with; big gears, small cams,decent performance stalls, and with a wide powerband. If you match it up, you can have a great combo.

With the overdrive you can run the gears your engine needs .... like 3.91s or a bit better. This brings the 1-2 shift earlier in the speed range, and so the engine has less windspeed to overcome at the lower rpm it shifts to.

For straightline acceleration;
Lets compare a stock LA318 with the A904 and 3.23s a typical combo.The power peak comes at about 4000, and you'll probably shift at 4500. The 1-2 shift will come at 40mph.
With the A500, say you run 3.91s, so 4500 will now be 30 mph. So not only does the A500 multiply your torque to a higher level,(10.71 compared to 7.91) it reaches shift-rpm 10 mph sooner.

Ok in second gear now. With the A904 your second gear roadgear is 1.45x3.23=4.68.
With the A500, it is 1.54 x3.91=6.02 being about 29% more TM, and the A500 is only bucking a 30 mph wind, compared to the 40 of the A904
In second now, the 904/3.23s will not hit 4500 until 69mph, whereas the A500/3.91 will hit 4500 at 54 mph; that is a lot of windspeed difference.

By the time you get up to cruising speed the 3.23s will get you 65=2660 @zero slip, could be 100 or so more under load, so say 2760.
Whereas the A500 will cruise at 65=2220 in loc-up, 2760=81mph.

So in this scenario the A500 is a clear winner.
 
The A500 ratios work with; big gears, small cams,decent performance stalls, and with a wide powerband. If you match it up, you can have a great combo.

With the overdrive you can run the gears your engine needs .... like 3.91s or a bit better. This brings the 1-2 shift earlier in the speed range, and so the engine has less windspeed to overcome at the lower rpm it shifts to.

For straightline acceleration;
Lets compare a stock LA318 with the A904 and 3.23s a typical combo.The power peak comes at about 4000, and you'll probably shift at 4500. The 1-2 shift will come at 40mph.
With the A500, say you run 3.91s, so 4500 will now be 30 mph. So not only does the A500 multiply your torque to a higher level,(10.71 compared to 7.91) it reaches shift-rpm 10 mph sooner.

Ok in second gear now. With the A904 your second gear roadgear is 1.45x3.23=4.68.
With the A500, it is 1.54 x3.91=6.02 being about 29% more TM, and the A500 is only bucking a 30 mph wind, compared to the 40 of the A904
In second now, the 904/3.23s will not hit 4500 until 69mph, whereas the A500/3.91 will hit 4500 at 54 mph; that is a lot of windspeed difference.

By the time you get up to cruising speed the 3.23s will get you 65=2660 @zero slip, could be 100 or so more under load, so say 2760.
Whereas the A500 will cruise at 65=2220 in loc-up, 2760=81mph.

So in this scenario the A500 is a clear winner.
Thanks
 
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