Shifting too far in 3rd gear....?

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MAPS

FABO Gold Member
FABO Gold Member
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Before I start with my problem I just want to take the time to thank every guru, helper, FABO member that always have some idea how to help with our (mainly mine, ) problems..

OK that said, I was thinking is it possible that I shift the car to 3rd (from 2nd) too far to the right ? Because sometimes it doesn't grab third and I have to try again or just go to 4th and then come back down. This will happen sometimes mostly going up gears 2nd to 3rd but it has happened before either way. (4 to 3)
Now I had the car looked at and they had the clutch and rods adjusted so figured I'd have no problem as I was driving back home it did it again.
While driving I tried for the first time to shift slower into gear and not as "far to the top and full right" because it hits the console sometimes and I would get that clunk sound the shifter hitting metal Part of the console. What happened was it grabbed 3rd like never before when I down shifted, I tried going again from 2nd to 3rd and not going to much to the right and it grabbed like it used to real good... Before I installed the console. I never had this problem until I installed the console also so I thought I had to go as far up and to the right as I could.
Is it possible I'm just going too far out sometimes ? Or the tranny breeds to come out?
Thanks to everyone who may respond.
 
Just for your information, I have heard third gear is the weakest link in the A833 transmission. My personal experience is that I have blown third gear to bits power-shifting. I don't know why this may be a fact, not being a transmission builder.
 
Stopped power shifting now cause I'm worried that some times it may not get in 3rd & it will just fly up to 8-9 rpm, I have the rev limiter set at 7000 but I'm just not wanting to hear it grind if I miss. Although it sure sucks knowing you need to let go a split sec (to shift) and you know the guy just passed you cause of that ... And with an automatic screaming on top end he just needs to hold on to his wheel.
Don't know maybe it's age, thinking of going to automatic and just letting it go with a loose converter and no worries missing 3rd ⚙ ....
 
Stopped power shifting now cause I'm worried that some times it may not get in 3rd & it will just fly up to 8-9 rpm, I have the rev limiter set at 7000 but I'm just not wanting to hear it grind if I miss. Although it sure sucks knowing you need to let go a split sec (to shift) and you know the guy just passed you cause of that ... And with an automatic screaming on top end he just needs to hold on to his wheel.
Don't know maybe it's age, thinking of going to automatic and just letting it go with a loose converter and no worries missing 3rd ⚙ ....
Some cars used this spacer which goes between the shifter and mounting plate. This might be enough to give you the clearance that you need.

9989AF81-F217-4D1D-ABC7-023202ADEEA8.jpeg
 
Also check your bolts mounting shifter to mount and mount to trans. Also shift handle to shifter body. If loose it would make sloppy shift. Give the shift handle clearance to console.
 
Hello All Experts and novices. Like myself.

We have done everything so fast but it keeps missing 3rd mostly on higher rpms it's done it on lower speeds but it will happen mostly (95%) going into third add if I was racing the car.
I do push the car hard and even faced it going from 2 to 4th not waiting to see if 3rd catches but it's a problem.
Do you believe the whole tranny must come down now to repair maybe 3rd gear or can it be done with it on the car ?

Thanks.

PS I only ask those because I'm going to a transmission specialist and don't want to look real dumb, and get fleeced as well...
 
These shift forks can wear thin on the ends that push the shift collars into gear inside the tranny. Not allowing it to shift far enough into gear.

If you can get the side cover off the tranny, you can probably replace them without removing the tranny from the car.

Old School mechanics would braze up the worn ends then throw them into used motor oil to harden them while they were still hot. Then machine them back to working width again.

1969 shifting forks, are more than likely worn after 50 years.

1st & 2nd shift fork, and 3rd & 4th shift fork.

Screenshot_20201022-175611_Chrome.jpg
 
Hello All Experts and novices. Like myself.

We have done everything so fast but it keeps missing 3rd mostly on higher rpms it's done it on lower speeds but it will happen mostly (95%) going into third add if I was racing the car.
I do push the car hard and even faced it going from 2 to 4th not waiting to see if 3rd catches but it's a problem.
Do you believe the whole tranny must come down now to repair maybe 3rd gear or can it be done with it on the car ?

Thanks.

PS I only ask those because I'm going to a transmission specialist and don't want to look real dumb, and get fleeced as well...

Your tranny should have brass shift forks. They are known to bend. Replace them with the steel ones that George Jets shows. You just cut off the tip that is not used with the ball detent type of side cover.
 
You have a few things to check.
One thing that can happen is the ramp or taper that the brass ring rides on can wear.
Also the brass ring can wear.
You check them with the gear out and you push the ring down and make sure it stops spinning.
If it doesn't stop turning the trans gear will never sync and line up.
I had this problem in a 3.09 gear set with second gear.
Drive it normal, no problem.
Add high RPM and it would not shift into gear.
 
These shift forks can wear thin on the ends that push the shift collars into gear inside the tranny. Not allowing it to shift far enough into gear.

If you can get the side cover off the tranny, you can probably replace them without removing the tranny from the car.

Old School mechanics would braze up the worn ends then throw them into used motor oil to harden them while they were still hot. Then machine them back to working width again.

1969 shifting forks, are more than likely worn after 50 years.

1st & 2nd shift fork, and 3rd & 4th shift fork.

View attachment 1715617634


Thank you very much for that info..
But the forksare but a cpl of hrs old (maybe 5)
The best part of this is I can ask the Tranny guy that maybe my "forks" need to be looked at...
Again, don't want to look like I don't know squat and he feels me he did this thatand then some...
 
I had a Muncie M22 that did pretty much exactly what you're describing. I found that the shifter mechanism had too much wear in it allowing the shifter to kinda flop around. I sent it to Hurst and they rebuilt it and it was good as new. This was probably about 1987. Might be something to check.
 
You have a few things to check.
One thing that can happen is the ramp or taper that the brass ring rides on can wear.
Also the brass ring can wear.
You check them with the gear out and you push the ring down and make sure it stops spinning.
If it doesn't stop turning the trans gear will never sync and line up.
I had this problem in a 3.09 gear set with second gear.
Drive it normal, no problem.
Add high RPM and it would not shift into gear.

Again thank you to all,I will be bringing it in the end of the month as we here in Canada don't have the great weather you guys have in a lot of States that you can run the cars more or less almost all yr.
We start around April (if we are lucky) but by May we are out but by Halloween it's the last day. We lock them up. No treats, no tricks.
Now the "vintage" (Harley Davidson 440) snowmobile starts getting ready to come out.
Oh well, as can't have it all..lol
Thanks Gents.
MAPS
 
I had a Muncie M22 that did pretty much exactly what you're describing. I found that the shifter mechanism had too much wear in it allowing the shifter to kinda flop around. I sent it to Hurst and they rebuilt it and it was good as new. This was probably about 1987. Might be something to check.

And away l go....I'm so happy that I can at least know what to ask about now when I bring it.

I put a console this yr, someone said maybe that may be a problem. I can't see that being a problem as I've even smashed it into gear in the console just in case it was somehow hindering contact, that didn't did anything, in fact when I shifted slower and easier it still did the same thing, it feels like there is no gear there, that I'm looking around it to find it, after a cpl of clutch pedal moves it will finally engage into gear but it just feels at times that i know if it caught right away or didn't as if there was a gear there or not...
MAPS
 
Before you do anything;
Make sure the external levers are about the same length.
Next loosen the 3-4 lever on the side of the trans, just enough so you can rotate the lever.
If you can actually do this;
Remove the nut,apply Blue-loctite liberally around the stud between the flats that index the external lever; reinstall the factory nut with a drop of loc-tite, then walk away.If you do not have a factory nut, see note-4
After the loc-tite has set, check that your shifter adapter plate is securely attached to the trans tailpiece, and that the shifter is solidly locked to the adapter.
Then reset your neutral gate.

Ok now,
that A833 is a bugger to shift at over 6000. The problems are threefold;
1) the brute was never designed to be shifted at that rpm;
2) the gears are heavy, and the clutch teeth are very close together.
3) the brakes have no drainage
4) And lord help you if you are running 140
gear oil
Ok wait, that's fourfold,lol.

As to #1;You cannot do anything about that
Without taking the trans apart, all you can do is change the oil;
as to #4; I use 50% Dextron II Mopar Auto-trans fluid, and 50% 75/90 EP oil with NO additives.
If you are serious about wanting to shift at 7000, consistently and with minimal effort; There area few steps to this;
#1, having a flat disc, running parallel to the flywheel. This probably means that you will have to make it so. And that starts with shifting the bell house around until the trans centerline and the crank centerline are identical. and that the BH face is parallel to the flywheel face. and
2) is setting the clutch departure big enough to ensure the disc has some shoulder room, and
3) figuring out how to slow that stinking geartrain down from 7000 to about to 5000!

This is the trickiest part. I tried everything I could think of. The 140 oil does a good job, but the oil is so thick and so slippery, that the factory synchronizer brakes just cannot deal with it on microsecond shifts.
The grinding you hear is you overpowering the brakes and driving the sliders into the clutch teeth. With 140 oil and factory parts, the brakes are the limiting factor. You are destroying your clutch teeth.
The 140 oil has got to go.Straight 75/90, in my experience, is also too slippery and therefore slow.

Ok but here is the big cure;
Call up Brewers and get yourself a street-slick-shift, 3-4 synchronizer. This DOUBLES the amount of room between the slider teeth and the clutch teeth, and all your problems go away. On the street you will never know the difference....... because honestly how often are you cruising in third gear, lol. Third gear is seldom used for anything but to get to fourth,lol.
And finally,why are you shifting at 7000? see note-3

Note-1,
How it works;

The brass rings work by squeezing the oil out from between themselves and the brake cones on the gears. After that is done, the brass grabs the metal and attempts to lock up with it. So in the start of this. it just slows the spinning gear down.
But that spinning gear is being turned by the cluster, and the input gear, and the spinning clutch disc, all of which have inertia, so even with or especially with, the 75/90 EP oil, they all are not much interested in slowing down the 2000 rpm this is gonna take. And the PP/ flywheel, is not helping matters, even tho the crank if you lift off the gas, as you should be, is slowing down. Mopars are notorious for slow deceleration, we'll talk about that later; see note-2.
Lets continue
Eventually the brass ring matches speeds, and now the slider proceeds forward to engage the clutch teeth. If the teeth are sharp, on both the slider and the clutch, then there is always less than a half a tooth clearance, and the slider snicks between the teeth and BAM!, the shift is complete.
Now; this whole process depends on several things
1) the engine is slowing down, and
2) the strut springs keep the struts locked to the slider , and pushing the brass long enough for match-up synchronization to occur.and
3) the stinking oil vacates the brakes
4) that the teeth are relatively sharp, so the slider doesn't get stuck on them.
That's how it is supposed to work.

Note-2
Lets talk about slowing the engine down from 7000 to 5000. After the engine is built, you're sorta stuck with what you got. But here are a few things you can do;
1) a lightweight flywheel
2) A throttle that closes! This starts with the Transfer slot sync, and timing, and closed secondaries.
3) clutch departure... again. If the driveshaft continues to drive your engine,with your clutch pedal on the floor, well, that ain't helping.

Note 3
A typical street-cam might be about a 230@.050, and is gonna power-peak at about 5100. With good heads and the tight-split A833, you can stretch that to say 5400, maybe 5600 at most, so that your out-going power is similar to your in-coming power. I mean the key is to put down the most amount of average power between two points on the road, by staying on the cam. By 7000, most street cams are well on the puking side of the power curve.
So,unless your engine has a heckuva long-period cam,and super big rear gears, this 7000, is just for the fun of it right? I mean;
I shift there knowing it is better than about 1500rpm past my power peak, and as a streeter I don't care; I just like to hear the screaming beast from idle to 65mph, one looong scream. I mean that's 5 or 6 seconds every time right,lol. I love it.

Note-4
If you do not have a factory nut,then you're in trouble. That nut has a load-distribution flange on it, and that flange is serrated, to prevent it from loosening. And it puts the clamp on the lever, out further from the pivot, making it even harder for the lever to self-rotate. But, if you loctited it, like I said to, then chances are very good that you can get away without it,lol
 
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Now you have shown me in wilting as well how dumb I really am lol
I'm lost buddy, I can only pray the specialist knows what he is doing and I sometimes wonder if they really do as they don't work on mopars or race cars as much as I would think they should.
With that said, I will go see him and try to see if he understand what you said... And I'll let you know.
Thanks boss.
MAPS
 
I'm 67 years old, been married for 43 of 'em.
Got 3 kids, and ain't got a flippen' clue,she says;
They taught us a mountain of lies in school, that took a lifetime to unlearn. But the things they outta have taught us, they didn't, so
today, the world, for all it's technology,is spiraling
into
chaos.
Fifty years ago, we were humans;
today we are dogs, begging for crumbs, from the master's table.
Better it was to be blissfully ignorant,
all those years ago.

GAS, CLUTCH,SHIFT, REPEAT.

Where in Canada are you at MAPS?
 
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AJ
I'm sorry for the delay with my reply as this will show you how dumb I really am.
I'm 57 yrs old,. I embalm/ed people for a living, took my retirement at 54 (almost 28 yrs, 25 full) right out of University.
I came to work one day and brought my papers to the office (letting her know I've put in my retirement and I'm leaving, end of of April) and the girl tells me,(Also, the last 12 was working at two places) Why don't you take an office job they are looking for a supervisor .... My reply was, "I said I'm retired, not retarded"
Well what do you know, I'm now doing the supervisor's job lol so I was busy with a cadaver..
This won't last long, I think I will finally stop at the end of the year if I want to stay married too.(31 yrs)
I'm in Montreal, Qc. The land of the separatists and thus supplement the greatest welfare system for immigrants, so long as they speak French. Only prerequisite needed.
I don't want to get into politics now
I lived almost 10 yrs in Jersey and if my father had not gotten sick we would have never left.
I truly miss the USA, at least the country not it's politics lol

The cars have always been a hobby more or less, along with breeding bulldogs (what Joe Public calls Pit Bulls). I have close to 80, but it's starting to catch up with me maintaining them.
The car, if I get tired, I just park it and leave it but the dogs have consistent responsibilities and I'm at the level that I see I can't be honest to them and it's been hard on me lately trying to deduce what I will do with this latest dilemma of mine.
Aside from that, life is dead...

I'm not sure what State you are in but rest assured "sans Covid" you have a place to stay if ever you come up this way.
If you hunt, I've got a small farm (where I keep the dogs as well) 92 acres that will give you a handful of Moose and Deer...

Always open to new friends...

MAPS

PS If I don't reply back right away, its because I've been summoned by the Ripper at accounts payable
 
I live just a couple of Provinces over to the West. When you're ready to "retire", you might like it out here. Lots of room for your friends,reasonably cheap living, clean air, not much politics goin' on, and you'll have time to get to know your maker.
As to Covid, my thoughts were splashed on FABO back in about March. It seems to be around and sometimes close by. By it don't come near me, and I have not changed my life one bit for it. Let it come, and may the strongest prevail; my God has cured me from far worse than covid.
I thought if you were closer, I could come over and meet your crew. But Montreal might as well be Australia for me; it's a heckuva drive,lol.
A lifetime ago, I read about Montreal, in History class. Me and History-class were not friends.
I think I mighta gone thru something like you are, when I was your age,(actually, I was 54), and the truth is, that the funk, at 67 now, hasn't yet totally left me. I seem to remember us having a bit of "friend-time" a while back, but my "gold" ran out, so I'm down to 15 conversations , and about 14 are ongoing...... so, I have to delete the inactive ones.
Me and the outdoors are not real friendly either; I'm a bookworm. I study my KJV and the Biblically endorsed books, to see where is I'm headed, where my ancestors screwed up, and what it is I'm supposed to be doing here, during my sojourn, here on this Earth. If you wanna talk more, lemmee know, and I'll clear some space in my inbox.
BTW
We're all dumb, mostly. I just happen to know a good bit about the A833. And a bit about the KJV. But if I ever thought I was smart, FABO has really humbled me. There are a whole bunch of smarter than me people there, mostly pretty friendly, if cantankerous,lol.
I got two dogs, and not looking for more. I only got the first dog 4 years ago, for my wife, after refusing her for 40 years. I honestly thought dogs were just obnoxious brutes. Boy was I in for a surprise. Anyway, as you know, they are like lil kids, everyone with his/her own personality, with wants and needs, and with moods. And they are way smarter than I could have ever imagined. And so, I had to learn their language.
But you!, you have 80 or more! all the same type! That's gotta take some real dedication. and some real smarts. Nothing dumb about that.
 
Clean up some space..
We'll chat

As for the dogs, my true passion. I've travelled the world thanks to them. From Dubai to Thailand, across to the Philippines and to every State but four. In the 48 contiguous (minus Alaska... Which is still a little Canadian, lol, P.R. Hawaii 2 Dakotas) I believe I've visited or driven thru the rest and stayed at least a day. In over 40 yrs.
This journey started in 79 (16 yrs old) and is not showing any end in sight, until now.

As for the biblical part of your response, I was raised a Greek Orthodox (Christian) and I've said this before, if I were born a Jew, id have died a Jew or Protestant, Buddhist etc... Unfortunately I have my reservations, Lately.
My dad passed away in Aug and it sure has tested (and is still carrying on) my beliefs lately.
Although, I do know that you will never find an atheist in a Hospital Emergency waiting area.
EVERYONE is praying to their so-called "Higher-power" but step away from any fears or close calls. It's back to feeling immortal once again...For most.
I don't want to talk about this in an open forum but dealing with death I've come to see some strange and unexplainable things.
Do we just die to fulfil the pattern of wear and tear, defect or badly made parts and then stay 6ft under for ever and ever ? No ! Far from it.
Do we go to the gates and have (St.) Pete tell us, Welcome or down South (no pun intended) and Lucifer and friends waiting to go party?
I can't answer this, Honestly lately.
Should be an interesting conversation to say the least.

As for the dogs, no such thing as bad dogs just bad owners. I don't sell any because I don't think everyone should be a pet owner and I can't sit there and interview each and every person who wants a dog from me nor would I have the time if I wanted to do so.
This way, I'm guaranteed that I will not screw up with the dogs on that aspect as a dog owner, protector, breeder.
Worse yet, people hear pit bull and they automatically assume the dog is a killer that needs to be handled with whips and chains and it won't hurt them either.
The main reason I have my yard-man is not to watch if the dogs get loose and attack any humans but that no human will go and steal them. So much for their "killer" character.

Talk later.

Zoi

PS The name is really, Polizoi but all my friends call me Zoi, the crazy thing is my name,
Zoi means, Life.
Which like I said is really Polizoi
Poli, meaning Many and Zoi life. Therefore it would be "many lives" ironic how so many have passed by my hands in death.
Go figure.
 
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