Alignment Help

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moparstud440

moparstud440

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I swapped my car (69 cuda) over from factory drums to Disc brakes using the upper ball joint adapter and spindles from a Diplomat. The car was originally a /6 and I swapped in a V8 before I redid the car. didn't touch the upper control arms during rebuild or any of the steering components as they are in good condition. After the brake swap the I had to adjust toe as it was way off. I bought the FastTrax alignment tool to check alignment and here is what I have:

Driver side:
Camber 1/2 degree In
Caster +1/4 degree

Passenger Side:
Camber 3/4 degree In
Caster -3/4 degree

I understand the cam bolts will be what affects the Camber/Caster and both will more than likely need moved at the same time in some amount to get the desired alignment. This is my first time doing an alignment and before I go and jack it all up, just wanted to see if you guys could tell me which way the cam bolts would need to be moved to help get the alignment where they need to be.
 
Do a search here there has been many many threads about alignment

You lean the spindle back as far as you can by rotating the cams so that this is so. You can see how these work by moving them. That gives you max caster. Then you move the cams in the minimum amount to give you camber. Use the doctored settings if you have radial tires, on the chart here, the "skosh" chart So you want the tops of the tires IN with radials, the opposite of bias ply

Turn of the screw: front end alignment for performance on classic Mopars

image-jpeg.jpg


Read this:

duster alignment

From Jim Lusk:

"Have them start with the front cam all the way out and the rear cam all the way in. Move the rear cam out until camber is in spec (1/2 deg. neg is good). This is the most positive caster that is available without new parts (offset bushings, tubular upper control arms, etc.). All of this is AFTER setting ride height. I usually set ride height with about an inch between the LCA bumper and the frame, then even the sides up."
 
Good luck getting caster anywhere near where you want it without buying adjustable control arms. 3-4 degrees is great but you'll never get that much from your starting point. Fortunately it's not really a pulling or tire wear angle, but it does keep the vehicle tracking straight and with less wander. I fought that on my Dart for years until a ball joint pulled out of the control arm. I replaced them with adjustable CA's and the car never tracked so well. Also, I really recommend having the alignment done on a modern professional alignment machine. Alignments are all about geometry and the rack will be perfectly level and they can adjust by a 10th of a degree. It costd about $80 but is so worth it.

By the way, that Skosh chart is a great thing to save. Those numbers are perfect.
 
Basic Alignment rules...Same size and brand/model tires on each axle. Same size and offset wheel on each axle. Proper air pressure in each tire. Ride height set to factory spec. All suspension parts inspected, tight and properly lubricated.
If used for a special purpose like towing or carrying any regular loads of any sort, preload the car with that amount of weight. Then proceed with adjustments . Worry about toe last.
 
I messed with the car for about 3 hrs yesterday. Got both sides at -.75 degree camber and +2.5 degree caster. I need to recheck the toe yet and than take it for a light cruise and see how she handles.
 
By the way are you aware of the offset upper bushings made by Moog? They help your figures
 
Mopar to ya said:
Good luck getting caster anywhere near where you want it without buying adjustable control arms. 3-4 degrees is great but you'll never get that much from your starting point. Fortunately it's not really a pulling or tire wear angle, but it does keep the vehicle tracking straight and with less wander. I fought that on my Dart for years until a ball joint pulled out of the control arm. I replaced them with adjustable CA's and the car never tracked so well. Also, I really recommend having the alignment done on a modern professional alignment machine. Alignments are all about geometry and the rack will be perfectly level and they can adjust by a 10th of a degree. It costd about $80 but is so worth it.

By the way, that Skosh chart is a great thing to save. Those numbers are perfect.
Click to expand...
 
Hi,
I have a 68 Dart GTS which has been completely rebuilt. I do not like the way it 'wanders' at highway speed. In reading various forum posts it appears that I need to get more camber/caster. I have purchased Moog K7030 caster/camber adjusting kit. I am wondering if that will give me enough caster as some members indicate these cars need with modern tires. I am hoping to get 4 or even 5 degrees positive caster and would appreciate any help in knowing if the parts I have purchased will give me enough adjustment to get that or if I have to also get offset bushings Moog K-7103. All of the steering components on the car are new. Caster is currently .2 on left side and .9 on the right side. Wheels are new and tires are Radial TA's.
 
Check your toe first.

Toe out can cause a wander.

It's the easiest to fix/adjust as well.

...but could be an indication your tie rod end(s) are going bad.
 
YY1 said:
Check your toe first.

Toe out can cause a wander.

It's the easiest to fix/adjust as well.

...but could be an indication your tie rod end(s) are going bad.
Click to expand...

The tie rods are brand new. Everything is brand new. Toe in is .20 on each side.
The car has a new firm feel #2 power steering on it. I'm not a fan because it feels loose but I am hoping it will be better once more caster is obtained.
More than anything I am wondering if the parts I bought will allow for the amount of caster I want or if I need to buy the offset bushings as well.
 
moparstud440 said:
I messed with the car for about 3 hrs yesterday. Got both sides at -.75 degree camber and +2.5 degree caster. I need to recheck the toe yet and than take it for a light cruise and see how she handles.
Click to expand...

That's pretty good right there!
 
Rogojo said:
Hi,
I have a 68 Dart GTS which has been completely rebuilt. I do not like the way it 'wanders' at highway speed. In reading various forum posts it appears that I need to get more camber/caster. I have purchased Moog K7030 caster/camber adjusting kit. I am wondering if that will give me enough caster as some members indicate these cars need with modern tires. I am hoping to get 4 or even 5 degrees positive caster and would appreciate any help in knowing if the parts I have purchased will give me enough adjustment to get that or if I have to also get offset bushings Moog K-7103. All of the steering components on the car are new. Caster is currently .2 on left side and .9 on the right side. Wheels are new and tires are Radial TA's.
Click to expand...

While I believe the offset bushings provide more caster, I think 4-5 degrees is pushing it. But I could be wrong. It also looks like the first kit you mentioned is the offset bushings and camber bolts in one kit. So you wouldn't need that kit AND offset bushings. I would call Moog to confirm, but thats what it appears based on the description. You might be better off going with adjustable UCA.
 
I was hoping to not have to change UCA. I spoke with the mechanic who does my work and he said he was unsure of how much the offset bolts with standard bushings ( as in the kit ) would give. I was going off what other members had posted and the sweet spot seemed to be 4 or 5 degrees according to the Skosh Chart.
I have already put on new wider wheels because there were 4" wide on the front and now it is 6". That didn't make much difference at all. It's hard to know what to do when everything is new, and 3 wheel alignments later the car will zip sideways....not a ton but enough to scare you in the moment.
 
Rogojo said:
I was hoping to not have to change UCA. I spoke with the mechanic who does my work and he said he was unsure of how much the offset bolts with standard bushings ( as in the kit ) would give. I was going off what other members had posted and the sweet spot seemed to be 4 or 5 degrees according to the Skosh Chart.
I have already put on new wider wheels because there were 4" wide on the front and now it is 6". That didn't make much difference at all. It's hard to know what to do when everything is new, and 3 wheel alignments later the car will zip sideways....not a ton but enough to scare you in the moment.
Click to expand...

Max Perf. Street says +3.5-4* Caster. Not 4-5*

If you want 4-5* you're not going to be able to achieve the related camber, (neg 2-3) I don't believe, with offset bushings alone.

What are your specs now?

I would get the offset bushings and keep your camber bolts if they're in good shape, otherwise they are relatively cheap. And shoot for max Perf street specs.
 
plumkrazee70 said:
Max Perf. Street says +3.5-4* Caster. Not 4-5*

If you want 4-5* you're not going to be able to achieve the related camber, (neg 2-3) I don't believe, with offset bushings alone.

What are your specs now?

I would get the offset bushings and keep your camber bolts if they're in good shape, otherwise they are relatively cheap. And shoot for max Perf street specs.
Click to expand...

I'd be happy enough with that for sure. Right now I have .2 (left wheel) and .9 ( right wheel) caster. -.4 left and -.5 right camber. Toe in is .20 on both...total of .40
 
Rogojo said:
I'd be happy enough with that for sure. Right now I have .2 (left wheel) and .9 ( right wheel) caster. -.4 left and -.5 right camber. Toe in is .20 on both...total of .40
Click to expand...

Well Caster seems to be your issue, you don't even have a degree. I believe based on your camber, that caster is at its max, but I could be wrong. Have you taken the skosh chart to your mechanic and asked him if he can achieve the max Perf street with your current setup?
 
Rogojo said:
Hi,
I have a 68 Dart GTS which has been completely rebuilt. I do not like the way it 'wanders' at highway speed. In reading various forum posts it appears that I need to get more camber/caster. I have purchased Moog K7030 caster/camber adjusting kit. I am wondering if that will give me enough caster as some members indicate these cars need with modern tires. I am hoping to get 4 or even 5 degrees positive caster and would appreciate any help in knowing if the parts I have purchased will give me enough adjustment to get that or if I have to also get offset bushings Moog K-7103. All of the steering components on the car are new. Caster is currently .2 on left side and .9 on the right side. Wheels are new and tires are Radial TA's.
Click to expand...
1 of ur problems is that there is too much difference in caster between the 2 sides. Shouldn’t have more than .2 more in the passenger side. Kim
 
A significant left and right difference in caster will make a car pull to one side (with the least caster I recall).
 
Ever thought of taking it to an alignment shop?
 
The cross caster and caster being under +1° of caster will cause the issues you're having.

With Moog offset bushings and stock control arms you're not likely to get more than +3.5° of caster. It does depend on the rest of your suspension and ride height, but that's about it.

You don't want to run more than -1° camber on the street anyway, for modern radials and regular street driving -.5° is fine, if you do some corner carving up to -1° is good. More than -1° camber starts to wear the insides of the tires prematurely, and really only benefits if you're autoX'ing or doing road courses.

CRUZE 418 said:
Ever thought of taking it to an alignment shop?
Click to expand...

A lot of alignment shops will only use the factory settings, which are for bias ply's and are totally wrong for radials. So right of the bat a lot of places won't put the right alignment on the car. Even if you find a place that will use the SKOSH chart there's no guarantee that any of the techs will have the foggiest idea of how to align one of these cars. Modern cars don't usually take much effort, so if you're talking to an alignment tech at a tire shop good luck.

A Fastrax gauge with a set of turn plates can produce great results with a little practice. Add a set of toe plates to make setting the toe easier and you don't have to worry about taking it to a shop. Unless it's just to check your work, when I buy new tires I'll have it put on a rack to check but I don't let them touch anything. If they even will, I've had shops refuse because of the adjustable UCA's and tubular LCA's on my car. They don't want to assume the liability for aftermarket parts if they didn't do the install.
 
72bluNblu said:
The cross caster and caster being under +1° of caster will cause the issues you're having.

With Moog offset bushings and stock control arms you're not likely to get more than +3.5° of caster. It does depend on the rest of your suspension and ride height, but that's about it.

You don't want to run more than -1° camber on the street anyway, for modern radials and regular street driving -.5° is fine, if you do some corner carving up to -1° is good. More than -1° camber starts to wear the insides of the tires prematurely, and really only benefits if you're autoX'ing or doing road courses.



A lot of alignment shops will only use the factory settings, which are for bias ply's and are totally wrong for radials. So right of the bat a lot of places won't put the right alignment on the car. Even if you find a place that will use the SKOSH chart there's no guarantee that any of the techs will have the foggiest idea of how to align one of these cars. Modern cars don't usually take much effort, so if you're talking to an alignment tech at a tire shop good luck.

A Fastrax gauge with a set of turn plates can produce great results with a little practice. Add a set of toe plates to make setting the toe easier and you don't have to worry about taking it to a shop. Unless it's just to check your work, when I buy new tires I'll have it put on a rack to check but I don't let them touch anything. If they even will, I've had shops refuse because of the adjustable UCA's and tubular LCA's on my car. They don't want to assume the liability for aftermarket parts if they didn't do the install.
Click to expand...
7th
72bluNblu said:
The cross caster and caster being under +1° of caster will cause the issues you're having.

With Moog offset bushings and stock control arms you're not likely to get more than +3.5° of caster. It does depend on the rest of your suspension and ride height, but that's about it.

You don't want to run more than -1° camber on the street anyway, for modern radials and regular street driving -.5° is fine, if you do some corner carving up to -1° is good. More than -1° camber starts to wear the insides of the tires prematurely, and really only benefits if you're autoX'ing or doing road courses.



A lot of alignment shops will only use the factory settings, which are for bias ply's and are totally wrong for radials. So right of the bat a lot of places won't put the right alignment on the car. Even if you find a place that will use the SKOSH chart there's no guarantee that any of the techs will have the foggiest idea of how to align one of these cars. Modern cars don't usually take much effort, so if you're talking to an alignment tech at a tire shop good luck.

A Fastrax gauge with a set of turn plates can produce great results with a little practice. Add a set of toe plates to make setting the toe easier and you don't have to worry about taking it to a shop. Unless it's just to check your work, when I buy new tires I'll have it put on a rack to check but I don't let them touch anything. If they even will, I've had shops refuse because of the adjustable UCA's and tubular LCA's on my car. They don't want to assume the liability for aftermarket parts if they didn't do the install.
Click to expand...


The mechanic who does the work on my 68 Dart is also a collector who is familiar with older model cars as he has a few of his own. He did the last alignment and when we spoke about offset control arm bushings he was completely familiar with them. So, I have a set waiting to go in, and my initial question on this forum was asking if anyone had experience with them and whether or not I would gain enough caster, and also be able to obtain proper camber.....or whether I needed to do more alterations. I am not going to switch to tubular UCA because the entire car is literally brand new from the full nut and bolt restoration. So hopefully I will get enough caster to make the car more fun to drive without having to be on edge waiting for it to scare me by suddenly moving to one side or the other. I'm just wanting to be able to enjoy a leisurely drive, like I was familiar with in my previous Dart.
 
Did he say why he left the caster so outta wack. Even if he couldn’t get both sides the same he should of got them both pretty close. Does he understand how caster camber works? Just asking. Kim
 
oldkimmer said:
Did he say why he left the caster so outta wack. Even if he couldn’t get both sides the same he should of got them both pretty close. Does he understand how caster camber works? Just asking. Kim
Click to expand...


At the time of that alignment a couple of months ago, I had not come across the Skosh Chart which put a whole new light on how these older cars should be set up. It sounds like he tried to get it to the factory specs...In speaking with him now it appears we have some reference point from others experience. I know he is willing to work with me, which is good. I am hopeful once I have the new offset bushing installed that we can get close enough to make it fun to drive. Having said that, I live in Alberta, Canada and it is now winter so the car is put away for the next while.

With the feed back from you guys, I will also know more about the range various settings need to be, because nothing is better than actual and factual information from others who have successfully done what I am trying to have done. I really appreciate all of the feedback.
 
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