RV2 AC compressor Rebuild help

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Seems like my old post is generating a lot of questions. I have another one in regards to my compressor upon installing a new front seal package because the old one was leaking oil from the front I need to know which direction this metal with Rubber seal goes. It has a taper on one end and is flat on the other which direction goes in the housing first. Thanks
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This way, but you are not supposed to touch the 2 micro surfaces!!! Not on the ring on the crank, nor on the one you asked about

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This way, but you are not supposed to touch the 2 micro surfaces!!! Not on the ring on the crank, nor on the one you asked about

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This way, but you are not supposed to touch the 2 micro surfaces!!! Not on the ring on the crank, nor on the one you asked about

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I did not touch the surface on the one on the crank but the one that you have dipped in oil surely you have to be able to push it down into the front housing. Here's a picture of the old seals the one on the left is the old one and looks like the one you have and the one on the right is it a new one this is out of a New Old Stock Mopar front seal package I assume they go the direction like I have in the picture with the completely flat side down first.

As far as oil goes if it is a completely dry system do you add all 10-11 oz of oil to the compressor before install?

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I used a socket, large enough, so it touches just the outer step of the ring for the front plate. You have to work very carefully, but please do your research here on this great forum. @Jim Kueneman did a very good write up on how to rebuild a Mopar AC compressor - here:1972 Duster Build with my Daughter | Page 22 | For A Bodies Only Mopar Forum.

I am by far not that advanced, but also try to document every step on my AC project - here: 1969 Barracuda Fastback | Page 9 | For A Bodies Only Mopar Forum
But more important is to have and read the Service Manual for your car, it covers almost all rebuilding steps.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
 
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I did not touch the surface on the one on the crank but the one that you have dipped in oil surely you have to be able to push it down into the front housing. Here's a picture of the old seals the one on the left is the old one and looks like the one you have and the one on the right is it a new one this is out of a New Old Stock Mopar front seal package I assume they go the direction like I have in the picture with the completely flat side down first.

The side with the lapped surface faces the carbon ring. Use nitrile or neoprene gloves to handle the seal components. Make sure you oil the o-ring and the bore in the front bearing retainer where the o-ring seals. As Wolfgang mentioned, you can use a socket to press on the seal seat (that is what the cast iron part with the lapped face and o-ring is called), but the lapped surface must not be marred in any way. Use several layers of paper (cut out suitable circular pieces) between the socket and the seat to protect the seat. After install, use acetone, lacquer thinner, or brake parts cleaner to clean the lapped surface.

On the subject of oil: DO NOT USE PAG OR POE (aka ester) OIL FOR ASSEMBLY!!! The reason is because both of these oils are hygroscopic, meaning they readily absorb water from the atmosphere. They will introduce moisture into your system. Use mineral oil for assembly purposes, even if you will be using POE or PAG for the actual charge (if using R-134a). If you cannot get a quart of AC mineral oil locally, Ebay has it:

For 1986-1992 Dodge Ramcharger R12 Refrigerant Oil 56624WF 1987 1988 1989 1990 | eBay

In addition to assembly, this oil can be used to fill the compressor if you're using R-12. If you have a vacuum pump, you can use vacuum pump mineral oil for assembly purposes, but not for filling the compressor.

As far as oil goes if it is a completely dry system do you add all 10-11 oz of oil to the compressor before install?

Yes. With an RV2, or any other compressor with a sump, you add the entire oil charge to the compressor. Use an oil compatible with the refrigerant being used. IIRC, the RV2 calls for an ISO 100 (500-525 SUS) oil, but if it's anything like a York it will tolerate anything from ISO 32 (150 SUS) to ISO 150 (650 - 800 SUS) viscosity. I'd stick with ISO 100, mineral oil if you're using R-12 and POE or PAG if you're using R-134a.
 
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So if there is any oil is on the carbon seal on the crank as it butts against the lapped surface then its trash and I will need to start over with a new seal? Wish these kits would give some sort of directions.
 
Correct, piston travel from TDC to BDC is 1-5/16" and the bore is 2-5/16".

It actually looks like the stroke is 1-¼". You measured 1-5/16" from the piston to the deck at BDC. At TDC you didn't provide a measurement, but it looks like the piston is about 1/16" below the deck. That would make the stroke 1-¼". If your calipers have the capability of measuring depth, could you perhaps get a measurement of the distance from the top of the piston (not the reed valve reliefs, but the machined surface) to the deck at TDC, and perhaps again at BDC? That would be more accurate than a tape measure. It would be great to have that info available somewhere on the internet :thumbsup:

Hope that helps, but since you mentioned the York compressor what are you plans?

Not OBA, if that's what you were wondering. Actually, I am using a York driven by a large DC motor for OBA (basically identical to an Oasis, but made by me), but I am not interested in the RV2 for OBA use. They're too rare and valuable for such use, IMO. In fact, I plan on using a York for the AC system on my Cummins swap, but for comparison I wanted to find out how much displacement the RV2 really has to see if it was actually much larger than the York 210. I've heard "I think 12 cu-in" or "maybe 12.5 cu-in", but nobody seemed to know for sure. If the RV2 was really 12+in², I would've considered it instead of the York, but since they are virtually the same I will stick with the more common, less expensive, and easier-to-mount York. As we all know, the old systems using these compressors (and the GM A6 and R4) cooled ridiculously well. Displacement is part of the reason, but many "modern" compressors like the Sanden 510, Seltec TM-16, and Denso 10PA17 have similar displacement to the RV2 and York. Despite that, they don't cool as well at low speed, even if using the same system components, oil, and refrigerant.

I have a Seltec TM-16HS that I drained the PAG oil from and have completely flushed with Suniso 3GS mineral oil to remove all the PAG oil residue in order to be able to use it with R-12. However, after some careful research I have concluded that the old 2-cylinder recips actually have advantages over the "modern" axial compressors that everyone tries to convince you to retrofit in their place. My background is stationary refrigeration, so consider this: manufacturers of stationary reciprocating compressors, whether hermetic or semi-hermetic, use designs basically identical to the RV2 or York. Efficiency is THE major issue with stationary compressors, so any design that increases efficiency would be used over one that is less efficient, even if it increased cost or complexity. That is why scrolls are now the main compressor technology above 2 to 2-½ tons. However, below that range 1 and 2 cylinder recips with efficient valve plates are still the rule. No stationary compressor manufacturer has ever produces a swash plate or wobble plate compressor with multiple small cylinders. Turns out there are several good reasons why. Where ruggedness and longevity are more important than the last iota of efficiency, semi-hermetics of 2 to 25 tons or more are still very common. Semi-hermetic recips are crank-rod-piston designs with relatively few, large, long-stroke cylinders rather than swash or wobble plates driving many smaller cylinders. Again, for good reasons.
 
So if there is any oil is on the carbon seal on the crank as it butts against the lapped surface then its trash and I will need to start over with a new seal? Wish these kits would give some sort of directions.

On the contrary, you MUST oil the lapped surface and the carbon seal with refrigeration oil. What you don't want on there are acids from your skin. They can (supposedly) etch the lapped surface and create a small amount of leakage. Whether that is really a risk of the unit is going to go into service soon after assembly is anyone's guess, but the manufacturers are the ones who say to avoid skin salts and acids getting onto the seal components. You also don't want an particulate matter on those surfaces, so cleanliness is very important, and gloves are a good way to assist in cleanliness.

EDIT: I changed my above post. The LAPPED face of the seal seat faces, and contacts, the carbon seal. I actually am not sure which side of the seal has the lapped face - I was thinking of another seal assembly which has a stepped lapped face, but it ocurred to me there is no reason the RV2 has the lapped face on the stepped side. It could just as easily be on the side with the taper. After cleaning with acetone it should be obvious which face is the lapped one. Hopefully, someone like Wolfgang will chime in here and confirm which face is supposed to be the lapped one. My apologies for possibly giving incorrect information. That was not my intent, and I hoped it hasn't caused any difficulties.
 
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On the contrary, you MUST oil the lapped surface and the carbon seal with refrigeration oil. What you don't want on there are acids from your skin. They can (supposedly) etch the lapped surface and create a small amount of leakage. Whether that is really a risk of the unit is going to go into service soon after assembly is anyone's guess, but the manufacturers are the ones who say to avoid skin salts and acids getting onto the seal components. You also don't want an particulate matter on those surfaces, so cleanliness is very important, and gloves are a good way to assist in cleanliness.

EDIT: I changed my above post. The LAPPED face of the seal seat faces, and contacts, the carbon seal. I actually am not sure which side of the seal has the lapped face - I was thinking of another seal assembly which has a stepped lapped face, but it ocurred to me there is no reason the RV2 has the lapped face on the stepped side. It could just as easily be on the side with the taper. After cleaning with acetone it should be obvious which face is the lapped one. Hopefully, someone like Wolfgang will chime in here and confirm which face is supposed to be the lapped one. My apologies for possibly giving incorrect information. That was not my intent, and I hoped it hasn't caused any difficulties.

Ok Good to know, I have the tapered side of the new lapped face, facing the carbon seal. I figured this must be correct as the old one having the step ridge facing the carbon seal. So the opposite side being the same must go opposite the carbon seal side.
 
I would like to give an answer on that, but your ring looks a bit different than the one I used on the front seal rebuild kit. But as MaxPF stated above, just look at the surfaces at the ring. On one side the surface looks kinda gloss and different. That is the microsurface and will point towards the compressor piston/crankcase.

@MaxPF, I will get you the measurements again :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Wolfgang
 
Ok Good to know, I have the tapered side of the new lapped face, facing the carbon seal. I figured this must be correct as the old one having the step ridge facing the carbon seal. So the opposite side being the same must go opposite the carbon seal side.

Eh, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. The seal seat is the metal part with the o-ring, which installs into the front bearing retainer housing. The finely lapped side of that seal seat faces, and contacts, the carbon piece that is on the shaft seal assembly. The carbon seal looks just like the one that Yorks use, and in that case the flat side goes against the rubber crankshaft seal while the raised, narrow side contacts the seal seat's lapped face.

I hope I didn't muddy the waters more. Let me know if you're completely confused now :D
 
I would like to give an answer on that, but your ring looks a bit different than the one I used on the front seal rebuild kit. But as MaxPF stated above, just look at the surfaces at the ring. On one side the surface looks kinda gloss and different. That is the microsurface and will point towards the compressor piston/crankcase.

@MaxPF, I will get you the measurements again :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Wolfgang

Thanks Wolfgang! I actually plan to compile information on various auto AC system components and document the advantages and disadvantages of different systems and components. Not to mention correcting some very bad info that is out there. Having accurate info on these older compressors would be very helpful.

Ya know, it's possible the service manual lists bore & stroke for the RV2? Or at least lists displacement so B&S measurements can be verified? You may want to look at that as well.

Thanks again!
Max.
 
So the new seal has a tapered edge on one side and the old seal has the raised Center. The back sides are the same. The original had the raised part matting to the carbon seal facing towards the crank and the back side going into the housing just like this @Machmeter1 photo. So it seems the tapered side would go towards the seal and the flat side in the housing.

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If you can rule out that the other side of the Ring has a microsurface then yes you are correct, but just from looking at the picture I can't say if you are right or wrong.
 
So far it must be sealing, no oil leak and pulled Vac for 45 min and still held it 1 hour later. Now i'm having issues with the pressures. and it may be due to condenser. The system ran ok with R12 but In the end I think im going to ditch the AC components. Robs to much HP and all that weight.
 
Wow, since May 2020 you are trying to rebuild a compressor, asked a lot of questions on how to install a simple ring, and then you assembly, charge, test, and evaluate a complete AC system in just one day??? What an enlightenment!

@MaxPF, I will get you the measurements by the end of the week, but I am out for now. This is a bad joke and a waste of time here.

Wolfgang
 
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Wow, since May 2020 you are trying to rebuild a compressor, asked a lot of questions on how to install a simple ring, and then you assembly, charge, test, and evaluate a complete AC system in just one day??? What an enlightenment!

@MaxPF, I will get you the measurements by the end of the week, but I am out for now. This is a bad joke and a waste of time here.

Wolfgang

AC was just pending a new seal and sitting there, decided to pick it up this week to finish it. When it ran with R12 it was ok, the lines have been flushed and the condenser. It does not take long to install a compressor, all the line O rings have been changed to green. I have always been on the fence of having AC for multiple reasons. The Valiant and my Omni are my 2 winter cars, can roll the windows down with nice cool air. My summer cars are my dodge neons, blow ice cold when its 120 outside.

The Valiant's ac will nowhere be as efficient unless I change the condenser, and might need to install a bigger radiator for hotter days. So yes I am done with getting this AC to work. Don't see why this is a prob, I appreciate the help, but i'm done trying to make something work I really don't need. Don't see why this is a joke, info is still here if anyone else has a similar question.
 
Wow, since May 2020 you are trying to rebuild a compressor, asked a lot of questions on how to install a simple ring, and then you assembly, charge, test, and evaluate a complete AC system in just one day??? What an enlightenment!

@MaxPF, I will get you the measurements by the end of the week, but I am out for now. This is a bad joke and a waste of time here.

Wolfgang

No prob. I appreciate it!
 
So far it must be sealing, no oil leak and pulled Vac for 45 min and still held it 1 hour later. Now i'm having issues with the pressures. and it may be due to condenser.

What are the pressures like?

The system ran ok with R12 but In the end I think im going to ditch the AC components. Robs to much HP and all that weight.

Check your fan clutch. Your condenser will be a problem, but the system should still work OK-ish unless the fan clutch is shot. Don't ditch it, FIX IT! Any compressor with the RV2's capacity is going to use the same amount of power, contrary to what you have heard about old recips being power suckers. If you get the head pressure under control it will use a lot less power, not to mention cool better. What year is your car? A retrofit parallel flow condenser may already exist that fits your vehicle. Alternatively, you can go with my boilerplate recommendation: make sure the system is totally leak free, and run R-12 & mineral oil. Of course, along with that boilerplate I always suggest running a parallel flow condenser if one is available. Even with R-12 it will still improve capacity, reduce head pressure, and further reduce compressor power consumption.

And who cares about the weight? It's not like you have to carry it around under your arm wherever you go. I've never understood people's obsession with the weight of AC components on a vehicle with a cast iron engine, all steel frame and body, etc.

AC was just pending a new seal and sitting there, decided to pick it up this week to finish it. When it ran with R12 it was ok, the lines have been flushed and the condenser. It does not take long to install a compressor, all the line O rings have been changed to green. I have always been on the fence of having AC for multiple reasons. The Valiant and my Omni are my 2 winter cars, can roll the windows down with nice cool air. My summer cars are my dodge neons, blow ice cold when its 120 outside.

The Valiant's ac will nowhere be as efficient unless I change the condenser, and might need to install a bigger radiator for hotter days. So yes I am done with getting this AC to work. Don't see why this is a prob, I appreciate the help, but i'm done trying to make something work I really don't need. Don't see why this is a joke, info is still here if anyone else has a similar question.

If you didn't really need it, why did you even bother in the first place? You must've figured you would drive it now and then in the summer. Assuming the fan clutch is OK, you can fix it with either a condenser or R-12. Not really a big deal. But in the end it's your vehicle. I'm thinking WG is just annoyed because you got so much help to get it working, and now you're ready to throw in the towel at the first problem.
 
What are the pressures like?



Check your fan clutch. Your condenser will be a problem, but the system should still work OK-ish unless the fan clutch is shot. Don't ditch it, FIX IT! Any compressor with the RV2's capacity is going to use the same amount of power, contrary to what you have heard about old recips being power suckers. If you get the head pressure under control it will use a lot less power, not to mention cool better. What year is your car? A retrofit parallel flow condenser may already exist that fits your vehicle. Alternatively, you can go with my boilerplate recommendation: make sure the system is totally leak free, and run R-12 & mineral oil. Of course, along with that boilerplate I always suggest running a parallel flow condenser if one is available. Even with R-12 it will still improve capacity, reduce head pressure, and further reduce compressor power consumption.

And who cares about the weight? It's not like you have to carry it around under your arm wherever you go. I've never understood people's obsession with the weight of AC components on a vehicle with a cast iron engine, all steel frame and body, etc.



If you didn't really need it, why did you even bother in the first place? You must've figured you would drive it now and then in the summer. Assuming the fan clutch is OK, you can fix it with either a condenser or R-12. Not really a big deal. But in the end it's your vehicle. I'm thinking WG is just annoyed because you got so much help to get it working, and now you're ready to throw in the towel at the first problem.

Okay I will take your advice and try to fix it. I came out this morning and turned the AC on and added a little bit more freon to see if my pressures would change. In the picture below this is what I'm currently at. What pressures should I be looking for using 134 in a R12 system? Like I mentioned before all of the lines have been flushed out and I used Ester oil because I've read that if there is any remnants of mineral oil that these two correspond better than pag 100. Even though these pressures seem low to me it seems to be blowing out cold air. It's 57 degrees ambient temperature and my thermostat is showing 60° in the center vent. this is at idle and I am going to take it for a drive and see what number is it puts out but the line where the expansion valve is ice cold like it should be.
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Okay I will take your advice and try to fix it. I came out this morning and turned the AC on and added a little bit more freon to see if my pressures would change. In the picture below this is what I'm currently at. What pressures should I be looking for using 134 in a R12 system? Like I mentioned before all of the lines have been flushed out and I used Ester oil because I've read that if there is any remnants of mineral oil that these two correspond better than pag 100. Even though these pressures seem low to me it seems to be blowing out cold air. It's 57 degrees ambient temperature and my thermostat is showing 60° in the center vent. this is at idle and I am going to take it for a drive and see what number is it puts out but the line where the expansion valve is ice cold like it should be.
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OK, first of all your pressures are quite low. Here's the problem: at 57°F ambient the saturated pressure of R-134a is only 53.6psi. You are showing about 103psi on the high side, which corresponds to a condensing temp of only 89°F. If you try to add refrigerant to bring your pressures up, you will end up with a system that is severely overcharged when the weather is warm.

Here's the other issue you have at low ambient temps: expansion valves (and orifice tubes) have a finite maximum capacity. Thus, the maximum amount of refrigerant that can flow through them is determined by the pressure differential across them. A typical automotive TXV has a rating of 1.5-2 tons (18000-24000btu/h), but that rating assumes a pressure difference of at least 150psi across the valve. In other words, if your low side is 30psi, which is an evaporating temp of 34.5°F, you would need a high side pressure of 180psi in order to ensure the evaporator is fed enough refrigerant. These are just approximate numbers - actual values depend on the particular valve, but those figures are in the ballpark.

Now, your system is running a ΔP (delta P, aka pressure difference) across the valve of only 80psi. This means your valve has only about 53% of it's nominal capacity, perhaps less. Your evaporator is going to be starved of refrigerant. If you're using a cheap Chinese valve then it could be starving the evaporator even more. The line coming out of the valve will still be frosty cold, but what little liquid is being admitted into the condenser will evaporate away before it makes much of a dent in the temp of the air flowing through it. In fact, since your vent temp is higher than ambient it sounds like your getting heat from your heater core leaking into the air stream.

What is the rated capacity of R-12 for your system? I'd take that value, multiply by 0.8 to find the 80% value, and charge your system with that amount of R-134a. Then, with the system running, slowly lower a piece of cardboard over the front of your condenser to partially restrict airflow. Watch your gauges carefully while you're doing this. Shoot for a target of 225-250psi on the high side. When you get there, rig the cardboard to stay put (watch your coolant temp!!!), and then let the system stabilize for a few minutes. Once it has, note your high and low side pressures and measure your center vent temp. Assuming your TXV (expansion valve) is functioning correctly, then once you have your high side pressure in that 225-250psi range your low side pressure and vent temps should be on the normal to lowish side, depending on how much heat leakage you have from the heater or engine bay.
 
OK, just to verify, your first measurement is 0.0665" (0.067" rounded up), 2.306", and 1.356". Is that correct?

Assuming so, that makes the displacement π(2.306÷2)²×(1.356-0.067)×2=10.7669=10.77in².

Yes, Sir, that is correct. The cylinder bore is slightly egg shaped, but that is the average measurement.

Wolfgang
 
OK, first of all your pressures are quite low. Here's the problem: at 57°F ambient the saturated pressure of R-134a is only 53.6psi. You are showing about 103psi on the high side, which corresponds to a condensing temp of only 89°F. If you try to add refrigerant to bring your pressures up, you will end up with a system that is severely overcharged when the weather is warm.

Here's the other issue you have at low ambient temps: expansion valves (and orifice tubes) have a finite maximum capacity. Thus, the maximum amount of refrigerant that can flow through them is determined by the pressure differential across them. A typical automotive TXV has a rating of 1.5-2 tons (18000-24000btu/h), but that rating assumes a pressure difference of at least 150psi across the valve. In other words, if your low side is 30psi, which is an evaporating temp of 34.5°F, you would need a high side pressure of 180psi in order to ensure the evaporator is fed enough refrigerant. These are just approximate numbers - actual values depend on the particular valve, but those figures are in the ballpark.

Now, your system is running a ΔP (delta P, aka pressure difference) across the valve of only 80psi. This means your valve has only about 53% of it's nominal capacity, perhaps less. Your evaporator is going to be starved of refrigerant. If you're using a cheap Chinese valve then it could be starving the evaporator even more. The line coming out of the valve will still be frosty cold, but what little liquid is being admitted into the condenser will evaporate away before it makes much of a dent in the temp of the air flowing through it. In fact, since your vent temp is higher than ambient it sounds like your getting heat from your heater core leaking into the air stream.

What is the rated capacity of R-12 for your system? I'd take that value, multiply by 0.8 to find the 80% value, and charge your system with that amount of R-134a. Then, with the system running, slowly lower a piece of cardboard over the front of your condenser to partially restrict airflow. Watch your gauges carefully while you're doing this. Shoot for a target of 225-250psi on the high side. When you get there, rig the cardboard to stay put (watch your coolant temp!!!), and then let the system stabilize for a few minutes. Once it has, note your high and low side pressures and measure your center vent temp. Assuming your TXV (expansion valve) is functioning correctly, then once you have your high side pressure in that 225-250psi range your low side pressure and vent temps should be on the normal to lowish side, depending on how much heat leakage you have from the heater or engine bay.

Thank you for all the info, I will attempt this and check number when it is a little warmer out side which is kind of hard to do when its the winter, the main test of the AC will be when it gets into the 90s-110s. Not like I need AC this very second.
 
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