Another "Is Fuel Injection a Worthwhile Upgrade?" Question

pishta said:

Fair enough. 1050 Dominator on a P head motor will make more HP than a 3310VS on an X head motor. If peak HP is what the sub after, build a dyno/track motor. If a more streetable car is what he's after, look into EFI. Ill call this the choice of a free market. Do your homework, look toward the future of your builds and see what can be pulled forward.

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I’m tryin to figure out if you are suggesting that EFI is a guarantee of better low speed drivability because it’s not. Not even close.

Don’t ever even think I don’t do my homework. That’s awful arrogant of you to think it.

The modern carb is a highly sophisticated, easily tuned device that will do everything EFI will do and costs significantly less than EFI.

It’s incredible that people are willing to spend a huge amount on EFI and then are only willing to only spend 600 buck for a carb and ***** it doesn’t work.

And, that same dude will spend literally dozens if not hundreds of hours screwing around with EFI but won’t spend any time other than on a forum to learn carburation.

If you spend half the money and time on a carb that you do on EFI you’d have a different experience. And by YOU I don’t mean you in particular, I mean YOU in the sense of the general meaning of the word.

pishta said:

$12-1500 can get you into an MS3 easily. Is it gonna take $700-1000 of custom work over the price of a new $500 750 carb to get it to work to your example of a track carbs level of performance... Let's go back to the OP (or anyone who's interested in doing this swap) and ask what its building for before we look at the extremes of a dyno/track carb compared to the OEM driveability of an EFI system. This seems to have become a pigeonholed debate on max HP vs. Driveability. I think examples of either can be built and compared.

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It’s not about Max HP.

Let’s take your example of 1500 for MS3. That’s not the ONLY cost of EFI. Not even close. So that’s disingenuous at best.

For under 2k you can get a carb that will do everything EFI will except pass CAFE standards (this is a performance website, not a tree hugging, save the world from a fake boogie man place and the carb won’t have the same cold start as EFI unless you bother to hook up a fast idle system to it, which wouldn’t be that hard.

You pump the pedal a few times, hit the key and when it starts it would idle at 1200-1400 and you’d be down the road. Again, the choke and Holley and their idiotic tuning books that are filled with crap have done more damage to carbs than anything else except government forced auto manufacturing.

harrisonm said:

I have come very close to pulling the trigger on a fuel injection unit several times. I have considered the Holley and Edelbrock units. I have decided against it each time because of the multitude of posts both here and other places where people who claim the are competent mechanics have had TROUBLE with them. I understand the potential advantages FI can offer, but what about all of these people with all of these problems?????

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A Holley Sniper plus the associated parts (EFI gas tank with pump and regulator, Hyperspark distributor and a laptop) will run you about $2500. It is the best investment a person can make if they really want to learn tuning theory. It isn't for everyone, a lot of old school hot rodders have trouble wrapping their heads around digital tuning, but if you are interested in really learning how to tune a performance engine then it is the way to go. You'll learn tuning theory much faster with digital controls since you can tune faster, you have more control, and you have the built in data logging.

I wouldn't make the leap unless you are committed though since the learning curve can be a little frustrating. Some people just can't ever seem to grasp digital tuning since it is different than everything they learned. Other people don't have any trouble adapting. I've seen some guys come up to speed almost instantly while other people seem to just lock up. If your brain locks up when people start talking about computers then best to sit this round out. The next generation of aftermarket EFI will most likely be even easier to use.

I wouldn’t assume someone can’t get their head around tuning EFI. It’s rather simple. It’s not hard. Is EFI better? That depends. To make the blanket assumption that those of us who chose not to use EFI is because it’s out of fear and/or ignorance. It’s neither.

For me, it’s not worth the money. The benefit doesn’t outweigh the cost, extra bullshit and all that.

I can get data logging for under a thousand bucks easily and do exactly what the data logger on the EFI does.

So for the same 2500 bucks (which is on the low side for EFI) I can get a carb that does everything EFI does except emissions and it will be damn close in the end and cold start.

That’s it. And it will make more horsepower.

lead69 said:

If you're thinking was correct then we would have to experience everything first hand for it to be a fact hence there would be no facts except to us lol. The answer is no but I have been around/involved more than enough of it too know. Find me one case where efi made more power than a carb in back to back tests, or better yet explain to me how any of the facts I stated are wrong other than wanting to have the convenience/drivability of a modern car. Not talking about power adders here just n/a.

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Maybe fact was the wrong word to use. But I find it hard to give any credence to an opinion from someone without the experience. Experience is what we learn from. To the OP, you asked, “is fuel injection a worthwhile upgrade?” My answer is yes. I’ve done many and all were worth it, from a power, tunability, drivability, point of view.

yellow rose said:

Don’t ever even think I don’t do my homework. That’s awful arrogant of you to think it.

The modern carb is a highly sophisticated, easily tuned device that will do everything EFI will do and costs significantly less than

If you spend half the money and time on a carb that you do on EFI you’d have a different experience. And by YOU I don’t mean you in particular, I mean YOU in the sense of the general meaning of the word.

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Read my post and look at its context toward the OP. When I said do your homework, That was not meant for you, it was meant for the OP or anyone considering this, much like your you disclaimer. I've seen enough of your posts to know your experience.
MS3 is about $1500, its cpu is $500, add injector bungs to your favorite single plane intake, $200. Injectors vary, let's say $300 for 8. Add an 87mm Mustang GT TB (or a 1150 cfm 4bbl TB) for another $150. Fuel rail $50, HP pump. $250...$1500 and some of this stuff can be bought cheaper. To buy a sniper system turn key is more, granted but some of that stuff isn't gonna fit under a stock hood depending on what intake comes with it. And the sniper is not infinitely adjustable. there are variables and options in MS3 that the sniper doesn't even address as with all the other turn key stuff. Controlled ignition is a huge factor in EFI. Thoughts of adding forced induction in the future? Just check a few boxes in tuner studio! That's my case for EFI. Let the builder choose what will fit his build.
Caveat emptor....Buyer beware.

TT5.9mag said:

Maybe fact was the wrong word to use. But I find it hard to give any credence to an opinion from someone without the experience. Experience is what we learn from. To the OP, you asked, “is fuel injection a worthwhile upgrade?” My answer is yes. I’ve done many and all were worth it, from a power, tunability, drivability, point of view.

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Yeah I agree. I've worked with dozens of customers over the last few years and they were all happy with the conversion. The guys who took the time to learn a little bit about the capability of their new EFI systems were super happy since it gave them control that they didn't have before. But even the turn key guys who weren't interested in the technical details were happy with the results. No more fuel smell in the garage, easier starting, no run on, longer life for spark plugs, better gas mileage, cold start and hot start improvement, etc.

My race customers like EFI since it makes the car more consistent and reduces maintenance. The oil stays clean, the plugs last longer, the data logger gives them info that they didn't have before, etc. Every race I go to there are guys asking questions about EFI. Most of them don't know that the Sniper has built in start retard, high speed retard, two step, rev limiter, nitrous control, boost control, data logging, etc. Once they learn about all of the features built in the light bulb comes on.

famous bob said:

no one even mentioned going to 8000 ft sea level from 5-600 ft , ur carb ain`t gonna handle that !!

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For the guy who does it frequently enough, they'll figure it out. Most of us barely drive that elevation change in linear distance per cruise! LOL

AndyF said:

Yeah I agree. I've worked with dozens of customers over the last few years and they were all happy with the conversion. The guys who took the time to learn a little bit about the capability of their new EFI systems were super happy since it gave them control that they didn't have before. But even the turn key guys who weren't interested in the technical details were happy with the results. No more fuel smell in the garage, easier starting, no run on, longer life for spark plugs, better gas mileage, cold start and hot start improvement, etc.

My race customers like EFI since it makes the car more consistent and reduces maintenance. The oil stays clean, the plugs last longer, the data logger gives them info that they didn't have before, etc. Every race I go to there are guys asking questions about EFI. Most of them don't know that the Sniper has built in start retard, high speed retard, two step, rev limiter, nitrous control, boost control, data logging, etc. Once they learn about all of the features built in the light bulb comes on.

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Yes, agree with all you have put there. In a slightly more complex system, even with a street car it can control your electric fans, run a shift light, allow you to run a coil near plug ignition system (you'll never touch a cap and rotor again), it will idle smoother at the same RPM. In the data logs I even have my vehicle speed, you could add a sensor to the front wheels and do traction control. No lift shift if you want. Rev limiting by fuel cut so you don't load up your cylinders and exhaust with fuel. One other thing it does is turn on the reverse lockout solenoid on my T56 Magnum automatically below 5mph where I set that. All for a $3 relay, the connector, and some wire instead of the $180 kit everyone else has to use. Let alone the widely known part about it fixing the fuel trim in real time with the O2 sensor. Overrun fuel cut is nice also.

Right, I did my Duster up with the full meal deal including coil near plug, digital distributor, driveline speed sensor for traction control, digital dash, fuel trim by cylinder and ignition advance by cylinder. Lots and lots of knobs to adjust.

I have a FiTech 1200hp unit that is still in the box if you are interested. I decided to go Holley . Let me know if interested. Shoot me an offer

AndyF said:

Right, I did my Duster up with the full meal deal including coil near plug, digital distributor, driveline speed sensor for traction control, digital dash, fuel trim by cylinder and ignition advance by cylinder. Lots and lots of knobs to adjust.
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I won't even insult you by saying "some people cannot wrap their head around tuning a carb", but I will say as awesome as your setup is where is the benefit in that for the average weekend hotrodder?. If someone likes all the best tech of cars that's great but the average car guy doesn't need any more than a good grasp on tuning a carb to accomplish all the things you mentioned above. I am far from anti efi but it absolutely depends on what someone is trying to accomplish.
One of the main reasons I see mentioned as pro efi are drivability and reliability so what happens when you have a failure of a part 100 miles down the road?. That is one of my main complaints about aftermarket efi is reliability, have you had a successful track record over ten years and several thousand miles to back up the reliability of a certain affordable system?. Not being a smartass but asking the question seriously, some guys have a heart attack over hitting the road with an msd box and now we are talking about a complete electronically controlled system.
When Finnegan ran blaspheme at drag week it had to be efi, it only makes sense but take a look at the price of his efi setup!. When Kindig builds a custom 100k car it makes sense, when the guy next door wants to geek out and build something cool it makes sense, when the average guy asks if it is an upgrade for a properly tuned carb on his weekend warrior the answer in my mind is no.

lead69 said:

I won't even insult you by saying "some people cannot wrap their head around tuning a carb", but I will say as awesome as your setup is where is the benefit in that for the average weekend hotrodder?. If someone likes all the best tech of cars that's great but the average car guy doesn't need any more than a good grasp on tuning a carb to accomplish all the things you mentioned above. I am far from anti efi but it absolutely depends on what someone is trying to accomplish.
One of the main reasons I see mentioned as pro efi are drivability and reliability so what happens when you have a failure of a part 100 miles down the road?. That is one of my main complaints about aftermarket efi is reliability, have you had a successful track record over ten years and several thousand miles to back up the reliability of a certain affordable system?. Not being a smartass but asking the question seriously, some guys have a heart attack over hitting the road with an msd box and now we are talking about a complete electronically controlled system.
When Finnegan ran blaspheme at drag week it had to be efi, it only makes sense but take a look at the price of his efi setup!. When Kindig builds a custom 100k car it makes sense, when the guy next door wants to geek out and build something cool it makes sense, when the average guy asks if it is an upgrade for a properly tuned carb on his weekend warrior the answer in my mind is no.

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In my case, outside of the ECU, every single part is something from a production car made in the last 25 years. You can buy them at at auto parts store anywhere. I can tell by the picture his isn't much different short of the coils, which I may just not know the application (I have the exact same TB). Losing an injector or coil will not keep you from getting home. Neither will losing the TPS, IAC, CLT, IAT, O2 on a single failure. I would say overall the thing that would make the engine not run in a system like this is if you lost the crank sensor. I used a Ford Ranger 3.0 sensor, which is VR (which is not a smart sensor, its literally a coil of wire with a magnet), they are unlikely to fail in the first place. Same with a total ECU failure IMO.

I've got about 7k miles on mine with the EFI, not a single failure of anything. The coils, cam sensor (5.2 magnum distributor base) were used when I put it together.

If you looked at the two types of "engine management systems" because EFI is not just a fuel system, using a DFMEA, you'd find that the EFI has more components, but each component is simpler (outside of the ECU), but there are more of them. A carb alone has a myriad of things that can go wrong. I think you would have to score a carb/distributor as more likely to have a failure in the case that the parts have good quality. Dirt can be a problem for both (carb is more likely to actually be stopped by it since basic fuel injector cleaner usually gets an underperforming injector back to normal) but there's nothing in an EFI system that the E10 fuel eats up like the fuel pump diaphragm or power valve. It's also less likely to develop a leak since all the seals are o-ring or NPT on the rails.

Its frankly odd and embarrassing to see that none of these carb makers went to using o-ring parameter seals on the fuel bowls and metering blocks for example. There just hasn't been a mindset to eliminate all failures. Especially in these more expensive billet carbs.

If you want to run a carb, great, you can live with the compromises. If you were doing $1500 carbs + MSD Box + ProBillet Distributor+ Datalogging +Wideband + E-fan controller + 2 step, its getting to parity on price now. Your chances of getting it right with EFI for every situation are still a lot higher. Way easier to get help if you need it also since you can literally email someone the tune and the datalogging trace.

goldduster318 said:

In my case, outside of the ECU, every single part is something from a production car made in the last 25 years. You can buy them at at auto parts store anywhere. I can tell by the picture his isn't much different short of the coils, which I may just not know the application (I have the exact same TB). Losing an injector or coil will not keep you from getting home. Neither will losing the TPS, IAC, CLT, IAT, O2 on a single failure. I would say overall the thing that would make the engine not run in a system like this is if you lost the crank sensor. I used a Ford Ranger 3.0 sensor, which is VR (which is not a smart sensor, its literally a coil of wire with a magnet), they are unlikely to fail in the first place. Same with a total ECU failure IMO.

I've got about 7k miles on mine with the EFI, not a single failure of anything. The coils, cam sensor (5.2 magnum distributor base) were used when I put it together.

If you looked at the two types of "engine management systems" because EFI is not just a fuel system, using a DFMEA, you'd find that the EFI has more components, but each component is simpler (outside of the ECU), but there are more of them. A carb alone has a myriad of things that can go wrong. I think you would have to score a carb/distributor as more likely to have a failure in the case that the parts have good quality. Dirt can be a problem for both (carb is more likely to actually be stopped by it since basic fuel injector cleaner usually gets an underperforming injector back to normal) but there's nothing in an EFI system that the E10 fuel eats up like the fuel pump diaphragm or power valve. It's also less likely to develop a leak since all the seals are o-ring or NPT on the rails.

Its frankly odd and embarrassing to see that none of these carb makers went to using o-ring parameter seals on the fuel bowls and metering blocks for example. There just hasn't been a mindset to eliminate all failures. Especially in these more expensive billet carbs.

If you want to run a carb, great, you can live with the compromises. If you were doing $1500 carbs + MSD Box + ProBillet Distributor+ Datalogging +Wideband + E-fan controller + 2 step, its getting to parity on price now. Your chances of getting it right with EFI for every situation are still a lot higher. Way easier to get help if you need it also since you can literally email someone the tune and the datalogging trace.

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I do not doubt you and appreciate the input but I know quite few guys that have run "affordable" all in one efi kits and not had that level of success with dependability. I also know a few guys that have pieced together systems and the horsepower/performance results were not as good as what could be had with a more expensive truly tunable system or a carb.
I do not discourage anyone from running efi if that's what they truly desire, no different than picking a turbo or nitrous but to argue one is truly an upgrade to the other there are many variables that need to be considered. One is inherently more basic to install, generally cheaper and gets the job done quite sufficiently when tuned properly.

I think EFI and carburetors both have their place and are both cool. Use whichever one you're most comfortable with. I'll stop short of insulting someone just because they like something different than I do. That's just stupid. But, saying someone doesn't understand EFI because they prefer carburetors is just as stupid. None of us knows what the other does. I worked in dealerships a long time and have a lot of factory training regarding EFI systems and their theory. I KNOW how it works. I KNOW how to diagnose and repair it. Now that I am retired, I CHOOSE carburetors because that's what I prefer. That doesn't make me or anyone else who prefers carburetors stupid. Come say that to my face. I'm gettin up in age now, but I'm still a big guy. I might not win the fight, but you're gonna be hurtin. It just doesn't make any sense to lob insults in a hobby where we all love Mopars. We're all in this together, even if we do things differently. So enough with the condescension and insults from both sides. It gets old seeing every thread resort to that.

I have ~250 miles on an Edelbtock Pro Flo 4 on my 427 Windsor in my Mach 1 and it just works well. This coming from a witnessed dyno tuned Air Gap/Quick Fuel carb/Pertronix II combo that worked "well". Throttle response is night and day as is the roll into throttle. Seamless... I was out today letting it learn after a couple of tweaks with timing. Idling in 1st, 2nd and 3rd it just gently rolls. Stomp it and it just goes, immediately. I'm sold though my 70 Dart Swinger will likely never see it. The Mustang is my tweaking car.

lead69 said:

Bias ply tires and state of the art trickflow heads!, that's how I roll b**ch!, and don't forget it with you're ac, nitrous, 10" plenum tunnel ram and whatever carbs

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Lots of records are gettin broken in that FAST racin with bias ply tires. Oh and aren't the slicks on those 15,000 horse power

AndyF said:

I tuned a 427 Ford with dual quad throttle bodies a few years back. It was a beast. It was for a street car so pump gas compression and a modest cam, but it still hammered out 700 hp at peak. Very impressive setup.
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Andy, that is really badass, but it true Ford fashion, you should have mounted the throttle bodies backwards. lol

I ain't reading all these posts.

If it was easy, everybody would do it.

That doesn't mean it ain't worth doing. Efi offers lots of benefits, and that means there's more to sort out, plain and simple.

RustyRatRod said:

Lots of records are gettin broken in that FAST racin with bias ply tires. Oh and aren't the slicks on those 15,000 horse power


Andy, that is really badass, but it true Ford fashion, you should have mounted the throttle bodies backwards. lol

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I did actually have some Ford guys try and tell me that the throttle bodies should be mounted backwards so I could use the factory throttle linkage. But I thought the factory throttle linkage was a dumb design so I got rid of that stuff and made a normal linkage kit and a high quality fuel log. Some of the original Ford stuff was rinky dink.

AndyF said:

I did actually have some Ford guys try and tell me that the throttle bodies should be mounted backwards so I could use the factory throttle linkage. But I thought the factory throttle linkage was a dumb design so I got rid of that stuff and made a normal linkage kit and a high quality fuel log. Some of the original Ford stuff was rinky dink.

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It probably was. A LOT of that stuff from the 60s was WAY more than wonky. It WORKED, but that's about all.

All I can say is that I will never own another carb if I can help it. Sure, they did and do work but EFI offers way more benefits "IF" you are willing to do the work and spend some time learning, however modern EFI system do not take that much learning. In fact I would say that in order to properly tune a carb you need to learn many of the same things as you do with EFI, the difference is that you do not have to disassemble the throttle body on EFI to make a change. I am not a carb hater per se, owned a lot of them over the years but I will tell you that I have EFI on all of my classic cars and will be putting it onto the rest of my builds (2 Bs and 1 A).

Here's another take, if you put EFI on and don't like it you can go back to a carb relatively easily (turn down or replace the pump, hook the O2 sensor to a gauge because you will still need it, cap off the return line if you feel you need to).

70chall440 said:

All I can say is that I will never own another carb if I can help it. Sure, they did and do work but EFI offers way more benefits "IF" you are willing to do the work and spend some time learning, however modern EFI system do not take that much learning. In fact I would say that in order to properly tune a carb you need to learn many of the same things as you do with EFI, the difference is that you do not have to disassemble the throttle body on EFI to make a change. I am not a carb hater per se, owned a lot of them over the years but I will tell you that I have EFI on all of my classic cars and will be putting it onto the rest of my builds (2 Bs and 1 A).

Here's another take, if you put EFI on and don't like it you can go back to a carb relatively easily (turn down or replace the pump, hook the O2 sensor to a gauge because you will still need it, cap off the return line if you feel you need to).

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Just because I’m curious, did you spend the same amount of time learning to tune a carb,as you did EFI?

I can tell you most guys don’t and I can say that because I see guys doing things wrong that have been wrong for decades and they want to fight you when you tell them they are wrong.

The vast majority of carb issues are ignition related and what’s left over is from Holley doing absolutely nothing to educate the end user, and on top of that, the carb builders don’t really add to the base of carb knowledge.

Of course, if you invest the time a carb is a very simple, sophisticated, semi self tuning device.

Good question actually. I grew up on carbs as many members here did. Not to date myself but I started working on cars at about 75 or so. I learned how to work on carbs in auto tech in HS and was very good with Thermoquads as even then I was a Mopar guy. I agree that many carb problems are not actually carb problems, just like many EFI issues are not all EFI related (many times its a power thing or lack there of). As to learning EFI, I am far from an expert but what I have learned I did in a much shorter time frame than with carbs; perhaps a more accurate statement is that I have far more experience with carbs than with EFI.

The thing that got me to EFI was really related more to my laziness when it comes to starting and driving my classic cars which I don't very often. I had a carbureted 6 pack on my 70 challenger which was a ***** to get running after sitting for any length of time. I rebuild the carbs probably 3-6 times, i/we could get it running ok but again, if it sat for say a month it is back to priming and tuning. I put an EFI 6 pack system on the car (with a hall effect distributor, MSD and bigger alternator). I can now let the car sit for months, go out and it fires right up, idles and has amazing throttle response. Oh and power is noticeably better.

Then there is my 52 Dodge PU with a 56 Desoto 330 Hemi. I put a brand new Holley 600 on it and at first it ran great. I let it sit for 3 months, went out and got it running and drove it about 1/2 mile and it started sputtering and spitting, limped it home and beat on the float bowels and got it to clear up, then I ripped off the carb and replaced it with a Fitech system. As with the Challenger, it starts immediately, idles smooth and runs fantastic.

Now, I am not saying that the EFI was "all that' but it definitely works for me. I like being able to tune it with a laptop and that the more I drive them the better they run. Sure, one of the ECUs could die and i would be screwed but that is the case with many thing (fuel pump, coil, BR, etc).

I have 3 Harleys; 2 are newer bikes with EFI and I can go out and start them right now, but my 78 FX still has a carb and I know I'd have to take it off and rebuild it in order to get that bike to even think of running. This bike has been sitting for a number of years and this might still be the case with an EFI system but I would a lot more confidence in that if it had it (currently a hardtail frame so I am not in a real hurry to ride it anyway, so its garage art at the moment).

I am building a 71 Charger, it will have a 5.7 obviously with EFI. My 70 RR will have a 66 426 GII Hemi and it will be EFI. My 68 Cuda (if I do it) will probably have a 5.7 and EFI.

Again, not a carb hater, I know they make power and can be reliable (were used for many many years) but for me personally, EFI is the way to fly.

RustyRatRod said:

Lots of records are gettin broken in that FAST racin with bias ply tires. Oh and aren't the slicks on those 15,000 horse power

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Not sure if that was directed at me or to educate jpar lol but I can say hoosier qtp is my tire of choice.

I would say this guy has figured a few things out. Power adder yes, but still the same principal.... Maybe that other guy knew a thing or 2 also. If you want to run Carburetors why not points too? An era gone by but I am sure there were people who could full send without electronic ignition. Your car, you way, but my PSA for this topic is the lady folk don't care much for the smell of gas on your hands and you won't have that problem with a Laptop......





JW