LA 318 Dying when put in gear and high idle issue solved!

Hey everyone, I wanted to take some time in case this potentially helps someone in a similar situation to mine. To start I had rebuilt my 318 stripping it down to the block, honed cylinders, put everything back together according to spec blah blah blah the usual engine stuff. HOWEVER, once I fired off the engine I could not get the engine to idle below 1200 rpm without suddenly dying. As if someone just flipped an off switch anytime I tried to lower the idle. So I tried everything, and I literally mean EVERYTHING.

For clarity all I am running is a single plane intake, 600cfm Eddy carb, .020 over bore, headers, air conditioning and heater delete, square bore carb spacer. Nothing crazy. Also everything was brand new. Brand new oil pump, and pickup. Brand new fuel pump. Brand new carb and distributor. Brand new wiring harness, and all electrical components such as ballast resistor, relay, ecu etc. EVERYTHING was brand new.

I adjusted my air fuel mixture using a vacuum gauge to achieve peak vacuum. That wouldn't let me bring idle down below 1200 without dying. I tried everything mixture wise from 4 turns out to 1 turn out in 1/2 turn increments. Every time I would try and bring my idle down below 1200 rpm it would die. Also when the engine would die sometimes it would shoot fuel out of the carb. Which you would think is a timing issue, right? Well before my timing light broke I had the timing right at 32 degrees advanced @ 2000 rpm when I was breaking my cam in. I couldn't get my idle below 1200 to see what initial timing was because all I wanted was to immediately get to 2000 rpm for 20 minutes to break cam in, it was when I was lowering idle I realized there was something wrong.

Ok, so, after I tried adjusting air fuel mixture screws using vacuum gauge and by 1/2 turn increments I thought maybe I have a fuel pressure issue, maybe I am getting too much fuel and not getting enough air. At the time I was using a 650 avs2 eddy carb and drilled holes in the butterflies hoping that would allow more air and help me bring my idle down. I thought maybe my air to fuel ration was off. That did nothing. I then added a fuel pressure regulator and gauge to be certain I was not above 5psi and that again did nothing.

I then had a good buddy ship me his known good 600 cfm eddy carb, in case there was something wrong with the 650 avs2 that I just couldn't figure out. I put the 600 eddy on and had the SAME ISSUE.

At this point I am stumped. I tried advancing and retarding my timing from one extreme to the other but to no avail. Every time I tried lowering my idle set screw OR putting it in gear the engine would just die. I tried using the vacuum advance for the distributor, and I tried plugging it, neither one did anything for getting the idle down or running in gear.

I thought at one point man maybe I am actually 180 degree out, maybe I messed something up. So I rechecked everything, put my #1 cylinder on compression stroke by removing the plug and bumping it over until it poofed my finger off and stopped at 0 degree tdc on timing cover. Popped the cap off and yup sure enough the rotor is in fact pointing to the post for my #1 cylinder. So what in the world is going on, right?

WELL as I was looking at my brand new Cardone distributor I thought hmm, maybe since this is a cheap distributor the gap needs to be much closer, so I set my magnetic pickup gap at .005 you read that right, .005 I mean I could barely get a piece of paper to slide in between the gap after I set it. Insanely close, but I did double check that it would still clear and watched it rotate around a few times after setting gap.

I didn't expect it to work, but I continued resetting engine to start up again. I reset my idle set screw. I ran it all the way out, then ran it in until it was BARELY touching. Then I lightly seated my fuel mixture screws, and backed each one out 1 and a half turns. I double checked yet again I was at TDC on my #1 plug, double checked again rotor was pointing at post that ran to #1 plug, turn the key on and turned over the engine.

Immediately it tried to fire off but did not quite want to fire, so I advanced the timing a little by turning distributor counter clockwise until it finally lit off. Now don't forget my timing light is broke so I did what I know works and advanced it until I could hear pinging and shut it down. Tried to fire off engine again but could hear it was too advanced so I retarded it a tiny bit at a time until the engine would turn back over. Locked down the distributor and then fired off the engine.

So now the engine starts and wouldn't you know it, it's running as it should at 800 rpms, at an idle, something it had never ever done.

The only and I mean ONLY thing that I had done this time that I had previously never done was set the gap on my distributor super SUPER close. Hours and hours and hours and hours wasted.

I said all of this because it was the last thing I thought of that worked, and had I thought of it sooner I wouldn't of done things like second guess fuel pressure of a new mechanical fuel pump, or start modifying a brand new carb drilling holes in the butterflies.

So PLEASE, if you are experiencing issues similar to mine double check the basics!

Engine at TDC #1 cylinder on the compression stroke
Rotor pointing to #1 post
Firing order correct 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
Carb setup for initial start up (I like mixture screws 1 & a 1/2 turns out, Idle set screw lightly touching)
CHECK YOUR DIZZY PICKUP GAP!

If all of this is correct you should be good and should not have the same issue I had, which was engine only running at a high idle of 1200 rpms, and engine dying when put in gear.

Sorry it is so long, but if it helps a single person it's worth it.

Thanks for posting, this one is bookmarked for future reference.

I can top that. 318 all of a sudden when started cold, shook like the motor was going to come off the mounts. I played with choke to no avail. I tried a few other things, checked timing chain etc.. For some reason when warm it stopped the violent shake. I changed the coil and no longer have that cold violent shake. So many things can drive you crazy trying to troubleshoot and sometimes you get lucky and find the culprit. I also tried carb with a good one and no help.

Randall Hendricks said:

Hey everyone, I wanted to take some time in case this potentially helps someone in a similar situation to mine. To start I had rebuilt my 318 stripping it down to the block, honed cylinders, put everything back together according to spec blah blah blah the usual engine stuff. HOWEVER, once I fired off the engine I could not get the engine to idle below 1200 rpm without suddenly dying. As if someone just flipped an off switch anytime I tried to lower the idle. So I tried everything, and I literally mean EVERYTHING.

For clarity all I am running is a single plane intake, 600cfm Eddy carb, .020 over bore, headers, air conditioning and heater delete, square bore carb spacer. Nothing crazy. Also everything was brand new. Brand new oil pump, and pickup. Brand new fuel pump. Brand new carb and distributor. Brand new wiring harness, and all electrical components such as ballast resistor, relay, ecu etc. EVERYTHING was brand new.

I adjusted my air fuel mixture using a vacuum gauge to achieve peak vacuum. That wouldn't let me bring idle down below 1200 without dying. I tried everything mixture wise from 4 turns out to 1 turn out in 1/2 turn increments. Every time I would try and bring my idle down below 1200 rpm it would die. Also when the engine would die sometimes it would shoot fuel out of the carb. Which you would think is a timing issue, right? Well before my timing light broke I had the timing right at 32 degrees advanced @ 2000 rpm when I was breaking my cam in. I couldn't get my idle below 1200 to see what initial timing was because all I wanted was to immediately get to 2000 rpm for 20 minutes to break cam in, it was when I was lowering idle I realized there was something wrong.

Ok, so, after I tried adjusting air fuel mixture screws using vacuum gauge and by 1/2 turn increments I thought maybe I have a fuel pressure issue, maybe I am getting too much fuel and not getting enough air. At the time I was using a 650 avs2 eddy carb and drilled holes in the butterflies hoping that would allow more air and help me bring my idle down. I thought maybe my air to fuel ration was off. That did nothing. I then added a fuel pressure regulator and gauge to be certain I was not above 5psi and that again did nothing.

I then had a good buddy ship me his known good 600 cfm eddy carb, in case there was something wrong with the 650 avs2 that I just couldn't figure out. I put the 600 eddy on and had the SAME ISSUE.

At this point I am stumped. I tried advancing and retarding my timing from one extreme to the other but to no avail. Every time I tried lowering my idle set screw OR putting it in gear the engine would just die. I tried using the vacuum advance for the distributor, and I tried plugging it, neither one did anything for getting the idle down or running in gear.

I thought at one point man maybe I am actually 180 degree out, maybe I messed something up. So I rechecked everything, put my #1 cylinder on compression stroke by removing the plug and bumping it over until it poofed my finger off and stopped at 0 degree tdc on timing cover. Popped the cap off and yup sure enough the rotor is in fact pointing to the post for my #1 cylinder. So what in the world is going on, right?

WELL as I was looking at my brand new Cardone distributor I thought hmm, maybe since this is a cheap distributor the gap needs to be much closer, so I set my magnetic pickup gap at .005 you read that right, .005 I mean I could barely get a piece of paper to slide in between the gap after I set it. Insanely close, but I did double check that it would still clear and watched it rotate around a few times after setting gap.

I didn't expect it to work, but I continued resetting engine to start up again. I reset my idle set screw. I ran it all the way out, then ran it in until it was BARELY touching. Then I lightly seated my fuel mixture screws, and backed each one out 1 and a half turns. I double checked yet again I was at TDC on my #1 plug, double checked again rotor was pointing at post that ran to #1 plug, turn the key on and turned over the engine.

Immediately it tried to fire off but did not quite want to fire, so I advanced the timing a little by turning distributor counter clockwise until it finally lit off. Now don't forget my timing light is broke so I did what I know works and advanced it until I could hear pinging and shut it down. Tried to fire off engine again but could hear it was too advanced so I retarded it a tiny bit at a time until the engine would turn back over. Locked down the distributor and then fired off the engine.

So now the engine starts and wouldn't you know it, it's running as it should at 800 rpms, at an idle, something it had never ever done.

The only and I mean ONLY thing that I had done this time that I had previously never done was set the gap on my distributor super SUPER close. Hours and hours and hours and hours wasted.

I said all of this because it was the last thing I thought of that worked, and had I thought of it sooner I wouldn't of done things like second guess fuel pressure of a new mechanical fuel pump, or start modifying a brand new carb drilling holes in the butterflies.

So PLEASE, if you are experiencing issues similar to mine double check the basics!

Engine at TDC #1 cylinder on the compression stroke
Rotor pointing to #1 post
Firing order correct 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
Carb setup for initial start up (I like mixture screws 1 & a 1/2 turns out, Idle set screw lightly touching)
CHECK YOUR DIZZY PICKUP GAP!

If all of this is correct you should be good and should not have the same issue I had, which was engine only running at a high idle of 1200 rpms, and engine dying when put in gear.

Sorry it is so long, but if it helps a single person it's worth it.

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Good you are getting it ironed out. Never overlook the obvious for sure.

FWI
My combo is well sorted.
I have run the reluctor gap anywhere from ZERO gap , out to .030, and she didn't care one bit.
Ima thinking you might really have weak magnetic trigger, and the small gap is band-aiding it.
The spec on that gap is, IIRC .008 to 012, so .006 is not that crazy; but I would replace that trigger anyway and try again. If it is weak, sooner or later it could strand you and cost you a tow-call, and maybe more hours in diagnostics.

Have you checked the voltage from the alternator? Maybe the voltage isn't enough when the rpm is too low?

You should be getting between 13.8 to 14.4 volts at the battery.

pickup resistance should be between 350 and 550 Ohms. Its just a ferrite core wrapped with some super thin ~40G wire, I'm not sure if it could be bad unless the potted wiring is shorted internally during production. Its like a guitar pickup, the more windings it has the more it will amplify the signal from the reluctor passing through its field.

AJ/FormS said:

FWI
My combo is well sorted.
I have run the reluctor gap anywhere from ZERO gap , out to .030, and she didn't care one bit.
Ima thinking you might really have weak magnetic trigger, and the small gap is band-aiding it.
The spec on that gap is, IIRC .008 to 012, so .006 is not that crazy; but I would replace that trigger anyway and try again. If it is weak, sooner or later it could strand you and cost you a tow-call, and maybe more hours in diagnostics.

Click to expand...

I have no doubt that it being a cheap dizzy is more than likely the main issue, and that this is a "fix" that might not hold up forever. My only reason for posting this was because THAT ended up being what kept my engine from running correctly. I never said that I should not replace the cheap dizzy with a better one, or anything like that. Just that the gap was the culprit. Also yeah it's my opinion that needing a gap of .005 which is basically half the recommended specification is in fact pretty crazy. Regardless I only posted this so someone else might not forget to check something simple like that. This isn't an end all be all fix, just an identification of something that wasn't functioning properly.

It wasn’t a waste of time, it was school time. you learned something new. It’s a home run the hard way. I call it teething pains. Once you think you know everything, you’ll get schooled again. It happens. New or veterans, a item or step is skipped, missed, adjusted wrong, etc....

The important part is the engine is up and running.

Randall Hendricks said:

Hey everyone, I wanted to take s .

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Son this is no way to fix a problem. The gap in the distributor is not what "fixed" this. What you had or have somewhere is an air leak. Period. There is only one way to get high RPM. That is an air leak. That air leak can be anywhere, including through the carburetor. Regardless of timing or mixture, the reason an engine runs at higher RPM is air into the engine. It might be as simple as (pull out of the blue) stuck/ misaligned/ etc secondary throttle blades. Might be the carb body is loose on the throttle plate.

What you have done here is changed "something" and you and I know not what, which changed the problem.

67Dart273 said:

Son this is no way to fix a problem. The gap in the distributor is not what "fixed" this. What you had or have somewhere is an air leak. Period. There is only one way to get high RPM. That is an air leak. That air leak can be anywhere, including through the carburetor. Regardless of timing or mixture, the reason an engine runs at higher RPM is air into the engine. It might be as simple as (pull out of the blue) stuck/ misaligned/ etc secondary throttle blades. Might be the carb body is loose on the throttle plate.

What you have done here is changed "something" and you and I know not what, which changed the problem.

Click to expand...

First, don't "son" me. Second I checked everywhere for vacuum leaks, there wasn't one. I didn't just change "something" the ONLY thing different the last time from every other time was the gap change. Period. And yes, this is a way to fix a problem because what I had was a problem, and what I don't have anymore is a problem. But please continue to move those elitist fingers all over your keyboard, I could care less. I tested everything and the last thing I checked was the pickup gap, and then that worked.

In case you're too ignorant to care or actually read I didn't have an engine idling high on its own issue, I had a COULD NOT BRING IDLE DOWN issue. Have a nice day. Or don't, for you I could really care less at this point.

Similar story, I had just got my car running with a 340 that is in it now. it shook bad sitting still at low rpm, really bad at 2000. I thought it may be engine balance, pulled motor dropped in 318,same thing, started checking everything driveline, pulled 4 speed half a dozen times, got good at it i could pull tranny in less than an hour. ended up being a pressure plate bad. man what a alot of wrenching but, I found it

In case I need to further elaborate. There were no vacuum leaks, I checked for that. No vacuum leaks around intake, carb, carb base, brake booster, nothing. The engine was not just idling high on its own, and that wasn't the only issue. It would also DIE in GEAR. An engine dying when put in gear is generally in my experience a timing or spark issue. Guess what can affect spark, you guessed it, pickup gap. I could not LOWER my idle using the idle set screw because once the engine slowed down to 1200 rpm it would immediately die. Covering the carb didn't increase rpm like it would with a vacuum leak.

I'm usually not one to really care about someone disagreeing with me on the internet, but I know what I did and didn't do.

The last thing I changed was pickup gap, after changing pickup gap I could lower the engine rpm using the idle set screw AND put the car in gear without the engine dying. That isn't a coincidence, that is finding a SOLUTION.

Let us know if it acts up again.

Ehh..sometimes you don't know exactly what did it you just know its fixed

Randall Hendricks said:

In case I need to further elaborate. There were no vacuum leaks, I checked for that. No vacuum leaks around intake, carb, carb base, brake booster, nothing. The engine was not just idling high on its own, and that wasn't the only issue. It would also DIE in GEAR. An engine dying when put in gear is generally in my experience a timing or spark issue. Guess what can affect spark, you guessed it, pickup gap. I could not LOWER my idle using the idle set screw because once the engine slowed down to 1200 rpm it would immediately die. Covering the carb didn't increase rpm like it would with a vacuum leak.

I'm usually not one to really care about someone disagreeing with me on the internet, but I know what I did and didn't do.

The last thing I changed was pickup gap, after changing pickup gap I could lower the engine rpm using the idle set screw AND put the car in gear without the engine dying. That isn't a coincidence, that is finding a SOLUTION.

Click to expand...

Gap changes timing but you change the timing to the set point by rotating the distributor. So in effect one cancels the other. I will say this one more time. IT TAKES AIR to make an engine run. If you cannot idle it down, it is getting air (and fuel) from someplace. You can say you and I disagree all you want but engines don't work that way.

I'm sorry your panties are in a big 'ol wad

@Randall Hendricks I had a Honda 2 cyl w/ points ignition that refused to idle or even run at under 2000 rpm. Both plugs were worn out, eroded electrodes and the gap was larger than spec, 2 new plugs and it ran and idled fine with no other changes. Measure the pickup resistance on a DMM and post for the record. Could be an easy tool in the future for the next guy. Also measure resistance of reluctor to ground (0 ohm is ideal) while your in there. I had a rotor with a pinhole casting flaw under the button. Was getting a spark jump to shaft/ground there and it never got to my plugs. Stranger things have happened I guess.

67Dart273 said:

Gap changes timing but you change the timing to the set point by rotating the distributor. So in effect one cancels the other. I will say this one more time. IT TAKES AIR to make an engine run. If you cannot idle it down, it is getting air (and fuel) from someplace. You can say you and I disagree all you want but engines don't work that way.

I'm sorry your panties are in a big 'ol wad

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It also takes SPARK to make a gasoline fueled engine run. Something that it won't get if the magnetic pickup isn't functioning like it should. This isn't about disagreeing, it's literal science. Sorry YOU cannot understand that. Faulty magnetic pickup = faulty spark. There's no reason to argue just to argue, I already know I'm right. I tested it. I found the solution. I shared my experience to help others. You're trying to discredit my solution as if you were there, or that I am lying. So you're kind of no longer needed here.

Randall, you couldn't be more wrong.
Del , (67Dart273), is an extremely talented and helpful person, who has been here for over 10 years.
Some day you may need his help, and burning bridges is not the best idea.
As it may apply to your situation; His thoughts are very similar to my thoughts, and when you condemn him, you also condemn me.
Because you have only 17 messages, I can overlook your attitude, but you really need to work on it.


I can tell you that I flat-out think your diagnoses is wrong, and as time progresses you are gonna find that out. And then you are gonna have to do the right thing, which is come back and say so. That is gonna hurt your ego big time. And the worse you make it today, the worse it will be at that time.

Randall Hendricks said:

The only and I mean ONLY thing that I had done this time that I had previously never done was set the gap on my distributor super SUPER close. Hours and hours and hours and hours wasted.

Click to expand...

AND
monkey'd with the timing, which
AUTOMATICALLY
leads to changes in the curb idle screw.
Those two are married like Sonny and Cher.

AJ/FormS said:

AND
monkey'd with the timing, which
AUTOMATICALLY
leads to changes in the curb idle screw.
Those two are married like Sonny and Cher.

Click to expand...

I didn't do anything with the timing that was any different than all the other times. The only difference was this time my timing light was broken. I had already tried all the way advanced and all the way retarded. If you read the entire post you'd know that. But y'all can look all you want for an "ah ha gotcha" moment. I made this to help someone in the same situation as I was. I stand firmly behind it.

I am on many, many forums. Of them all this one is the most elitist I have ever seen. You can disagree with me all you want. If you think I am wrong then by all means, whatever, but I also think you are wrong. So since this is my thread, exit stage left. If you think the number of messages someone has posted on a forum correlates to mechanical ability/knowledge you're doing nothing more than solidifying my point. This unnecessary desire to stroke your ego on an online forum. I have tried every idea that was presented to me by people who know much more and much less than me. They all failed. Until I did something that worked. But yes, please continue to tell me how my findings, that worked, are wrong. I'm thoroughly amused.

Randall said,.

Randall Hendricks said:

I didn't expect it to work, but I continued resetting engine to start up again. I reset my idle set screw. I ran it all the way out, then ran it in until it was BARELY touching. Then I lightly seated my fuel mixture screws, and backed each one out 1 and a half turns. I double checked yet again I was at TDC on my #1 plug, double checked again rotor was pointing at post that ran to #1 plug, turn the key on and turned over the engine.

Immediately it tried to fire off but did not quite want to fire, so I advanced the timing a little by turning distributor counter clockwise until it finally lit off. Now don't forget my timing light is broke so I did what I know works and advanced it until I could hear pinging and shut it down. Tried to fire off engine again but could hear it was too advanced so I retarded it a tiny bit at a time until the engine would turn back over. Locked down the distributor and then fired off the engine.

So now the engine starts and wouldn't you know it, it's running as it should at 800 rpms, at an idle, something it had never ever done.

The only and I mean ONLY thing that I had done this time that I had previously never done was set the gap on my distributor super SUPER close. Hours and hours and hours and hours wasted.

Click to expand...

So, essentially you're pissing in the wind, and making a mess on your trousers.

Good lord, you're picking out small excerpts and leaving out everything else that it correlates too. Reaching for something to validate your opinion much? That's a little embarrassing. The overall context is clearly that once everything that should've worked didn't I began trying anything and everything to see if something would work. It's called troubleshooting. But please, lets continue, I can do this all night chief.

Also "resetting engine" means putting everything back into the same position IE mixture screws same position, idle set screw same position. You cannot have a bunch of variables when trying to find a solution. You're kind of pathetic, not gonna lie. My findings are valid. My information is valid. You're just continuing to try and find something to validate your opinion when your stance of I'm right because of my "message number" has failed.