Looking update home heating/cooling systems due to age

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22dog22

22dog22

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northampton ,pa
Getting ready to retire next year 2022, i live in the eastern end of Pa. near Allentown Pa. have a Bi-level single home built around 1975 which is all Electric has electric baseboard heat with an add on central air unit in the attic-crawl space, i think the unit is nearing the end of it's useful life, want to update to a heat pump to heat and cool this house and due it before i retire, to try to cut down on the heating costs in the winter. in a bi-level the lower level is harder to keep warm since the heat wants to rise and the lower level only has 1 small air vent so i not sure if this would be a good move, looking for information thoughts about this .
 
22dog22 said:
Getting ready to retire next year 2022, i live in the eastern end of Pa. near Allentown Pa. have a Bi-level single home built around 1975 which is all Electric has electric baseboard heat with an add on central air unit in the attic-crawl space, i think the unit is nearing the end of it's useful life, want to update to a heat pump to heat and cool this house and due it before i retire, to try to cut down on the heating costs in the winter. in a bi-level the lower level is harder to keep warm since the heat wants to rise and the lower level only has 1 small air vent so i not sure if this would be a good move, looking for information thoughts about this .
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I live near Philly and have relatives up in your area. A heat pump system isn’t a good choice due to the operational temps in your area being too cold in swing seasons to gain a benefit. A heat pump will likely cost more than a conventional dual system for heat and AC.

You would do better to choose a damper controlled zone system where individual pneumatic dampers are controlled by individual room Thermostats with the whole house system running off of a central HVAC with separate systems for heat and AC. Adding more vents to be controlled in each zone will make the system better balanced and save money.

Generally, the most savings are gained by optimizing the distribution system to maximize efficiency in heat/AC per zone rather than changing the type of source units.

Also, in PA, gas tends to be less expensive than electric and modern high efficiency gas units run in the 90%+ efficiency range.
 
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I basically HATE ceiling systems as I had always had cold feet. What are your options, IE is there a basement/ crawl under the floor, or is it a slab?

How much money/ trouble can you go to? Any chance of a ground source heat pump?

I'm sure Ddaddy is right about the climate being too cold, but if you have no other options than electric, you could at LEAST utilize the heat pump in more temperate weather, then lock it out when it gets too cold. There are control systems for this purpose. In my day we called them "outdoor thermostats." And of course the "pump" would also provide your AC needs

It is IMPORTANT VERY important to have a heat pump / duct work properly designed for the building. Not only for heating / cooling, but to protect the compressor and give it long life. "Not enough airflow" (inadequate ducts) is / was a HUGE cause of short compressor life around this area, which also sees it's share of cold. (At my home town as a kid near here, -20F did happen at least once, and -10 to -15 a few times.

I assume you don't want oil, and don't have nat gas in the area? How about LPG forced air with AC?

It is expensive, and must be properly designed, but it IS possible to combine a heat pump/ AC system with something like oil /gas/ LPG

Whatever you do don't hire some knothead with a heat pump. You need somebody who knows what they are doing.
 
22dog22 said:
Getting ready to retire next year 2022, i live in the eastern end of Pa. near Allentown Pa. have a Bi-level single home built around 1975 which is all Electric has electric baseboard heat with an add on central air unit in the attic-crawl space, i think the unit is nearing the end of it's useful life, want to update to a heat pump to heat and cool this house and due it before i retire, to try to cut down on the heating costs in the winter. in a bi-level the lower level is harder to keep warm since the heat wants to rise and the lower level only has 1 small air vent so i not sure if this would be a good move, looking for information thoughts about this .
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wanted to add where i live there is no natural gas service, either electric or fuel oil i do not where a hot air furnace would fit in my home.
 
22dog22 said:
wanted to add where i live there is no natural gas service, either electric or fuel oil i do not where a hot air furnace would fit in my home.
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How about propane as an option. We’re in NC we have a heat pump with a gas (propane) furnace for backup heat rather than an electric heating strip. The heat pump is efficient down to around 35 degrees. The way a heat pump works is that when it gets cold the heat pump starts and if it can’t raise the temperature up in a certain amount of time it switches over to the gas/propane furnace. A system like this isn’t cheap but our monthly electric and propane usage costs us on average about $120 a month but our house is new and energy efficient. FYI, our propane tank is $500 gallons and it’s buried in the ground so you don’t even know it’s there. You should have a local HVAC company come by and discuss what your options are.
 
Hi there. Everyone is correct about the heat pump only working well to about 35-40 degrees. They do sell dual fuel heat pumps. It works on electric till about 40 degrees and it will switch to propane by itself. If you have a lot of $$$ (20-25K) geothermo is the way to go as one of my friends have one in a large home and their electric bill is about +30.00 in the winter. Sure wish I could afford one.
 
Yeah, we're lookin at the same thing before much longer, I'm afraid. Our outside A/C unit went like 6 or 7 years ago. The inside furnace still works, but we rarely run it because it drives the bill up so much. Present electric bill was over 200 up from the previous month's 179, so no doubt we need something more efficient. We have two small electric space heaters for winter and a medium size window unit for the hot months, but now that we're both retired and home all the time, we need something more. They're just so damned expensive. I've had several estimates over the past few months. One was almost 12K. For central heat and air in a 1600 sq ft double wide. LOL Like they actually thought I was gonna tell um to jump on it. Lowest one was about 4800. We'll get it figured out somehow. lol
 
Actually heat pumps can work well below 35F. It depends on humidity for one. The efficiency does drop. About 25F and below they are really iffy, plus or minus.

You CAN gain some with high efficiency LPG

A lot of your decision should depend on energy costs in your area, IE BTU/ per unit cost. The local power company should be able to give you that figure at least for electricity for straight watts per cost. A local LPG company should be able to give you the same for that. The AFUE of the furnace, whether 90+ or 80% class will make a difference. Maintenance / repair costs on 90+% furnaces CAN be high
 
22dog22 said:
Getting ready to retire next year 2022, i live in the eastern end of Pa. near Allentown Pa. have a Bi-level single home built around 1975 which is all Electric has electric baseboard heat with an add on central air unit in the attic-crawl space, i think the unit is nearing the end of it's useful life, want to update to a heat pump to heat and cool this house and due it before i retire, to try to cut down on the heating costs in the winter. in a bi-level the lower level is harder to keep warm since the heat wants to rise and the lower level only has 1 small air vent so i not sure if this would be a good move, looking for information thoughts about this .
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If you dont have ductwork the state of the art are mini split heat pump systems, check out Lowes, stick with a name brand and the longest warranty you can get.
With that said I love LP you cant beat LP for quaility heat, but it is expensive.
 
Sounds like you don't have many choices. It doesn't sound like you have proper duct work for Forced air furnace. Are there cold air return's in each room or one large air return in the hallway? You could take out the electric baseboards and install fin tube hot water heat. Clean, quiet, and fairly efficient because of the closed loop design. I have a Weil-McLain suitcase boiler. It is about 92% efficient and because it's a closed loop system heat, system heat loss is very minimal. Check with a HVAC contractor to see what's available.
 
512Stroker said:
you cant beat LP for quaility heat, but it is expensive.
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This may be misleading. "Expensive" compared to what?" That is why you must pool available energy sources in your area, and compare BTU/ cost. INSTALLING LPG is certainly not as expensive as a heat pump per se, but then you must consider that the cost of a pump also gets you AC.

If his electrical rates are high enough in his area, "it might just be" that considering maintenance costs, LPG looks pretty good

Also consider, that the colder it gets, the lower the supply temperature of a heat pump. And of course at some point the electrical aux/ emergency heat must come on. ............and it must be engaged for defrost.
 
We replaced 32 year old electric heat and a/c with a heat pump last year. Ductwork wasn't an issue in our case. The new unit does have a electric recovery/helper unit in the air handler but it is much smaller than what was in the electric heat unit. It operates only when the temp gets 3 degree or more below thermostat setting. So jacking around with the thermostat would cost us more.
Partly because the original a/c unit was slightly undersize for our heated area, our power bill is now about 70 dollar per month less in summer and 150 dollar per month less in winter. I know this fancy new scroll compressor will not last 32 years like the original did.
I should add that we have had a vent free gas log fireplace for many years. The little grille bottles of propane seemed to be a hassle in the beginning but... its just another store to stop by. The toasty warm is well worth it. We have heat during power outages too.
 
67Dart273 said:
This may be misleading. "Expensive" compared to what?" That is why you must pool available energy sources in your area, and compare BTU/ cost. INSTALLING LPG is certainly not as expensive as a heat pump per se, but then you must consider that the cost of a pump also gets you AC.

If his electrical rates are high enough in his area, "it might just be" that considering maintenance costs, LPG looks pretty good

Also consider, that the colder it gets, the lower the supply temperature of a heat pump. And of course at some point the electrical aux/ emergency heat must come on. ............and it must be engaged for defrost.
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I should have been more clear.
When I said it was expensive I was realy refering to the cost $ of the equipment
A dual energy system - Hi eff LP/eletric heat pump is the ulimate, the best of both worlds. This is what we have know and it is very energy efficient as I purchase my LP in August on a winter pre buy program from one of the local LP suppliers. It was costly $ to install but I think well worth it in the long run.
 
Around here, we have flat roofs. I didn't come up with idea, just how it is. When my roof started leaking, I did a new roof with urethane. Before it was 'tar and gravel' lol. The guy built it up to R30. Nearly halved my LP gas usage. Insulation and sealing will cut costs and are a onetime outlay.
 
I can't recommend the best option for your area regarding cost vs efficiency, but I can offer you my experience regarding HVAC systems. I spotted a commercial HVAC parts supply house while driving at work one day a couple years ago, so I stopped by. It was a store for contractors and had a multitude of parts and components available, and it was obvious this was no place for a do it yourself type of consumer.

I walked up to the guy behind the counter and asked him if he could recommend and good installers in the area. He pointed out a guy sitting at the counter ordering parts. I got the guys contact number and had him stop by my place.

I had been quoted over $17000 to install a full A/C & Heating system including ducting, all the hardware and components needed to complete the job. The guy I met at the counter told me he would install and hook up everything for $5500 using top shelf components. I told him to go for it. This guy's work was quality, and quick. I'm sure there was a component of luck involved in finding him too.

Three days later he was done, and I happily paid him. I have since used the guy to install another system in my neighboring unit for $1000 less, as he had a slow spot in his schedule. Both systems have been a godsend in the summer and cozy in the winter. We rarely dip below the mid 30's here, but sometimes hit in the triple digits for a week or two.

I recommended this guy to several neighbors and everyone loves his work. It might be possible to find a hard working guy in your area using a similar method, so it may be worth a try.
 
toolmanmike said:
Sounds like you don't have many choices. It doesn't sound like you have proper duct work for Forced air furnace. Are there cold air return's in each room or one large air return in the hallway? You could take out the electric baseboards and install fin tube hot water heat. Clean, quiet, and fairly efficient because of the closed loop design. I have a Weil-McLain suitcase boiler. It is about 92% efficient and because it's a closed loop system heat, system heat loss is very minimal. Check with a HVAC contractor to see what's available.
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Hi Toolmanmike, we only have main air return in our hallway, and ceiling vents for the a/c cooling, i am not sure where i could place a boiler, i think it would be a large job to tear out the electric baseboard heaters to install hot water, i thought about these mini split systems to help get more heat to my lower level . at this time i do have a gravity feed free standing oil stove which is nice when it is on but a real pain to keep clean and relite. the Weil-Mclain boiler unit what size cabinet is it ?
 
22dog22 said:
Getting ready to retire next year 2022, i live in the eastern end of Pa. near Allentown Pa. have a Bi-level single home built around 1975 which is all Electric has electric baseboard heat with an add on central air unit in the attic-crawl space, i think the unit is nearing the end of it's useful life, want to update to a heat pump to heat and cool this house and due it before i retire, to try to cut down on the heating costs in the winter. in a bi-level the lower level is harder to keep warm since the heat wants to rise and the lower level only has 1 small air vent so i not sure if this would be a good move, looking for information thoughts about this .
Click to expand...
I should also though of my old place in Tennessee. We used a propane fireplace in our centeral area, you could put one downstairs. Our electric bills were always high but when it got cold our neighbors were having $400+ bills ours were at 180.00 and the propane usually lasted 2 years with a 200 or 250 gal. tank. It helped a lot! Also if you don't know it you will need duct work with a heat pump.
 
22dog22 said:
Hi Toolmanmike, we only have main air return in our hallway, and ceiling vents for the a/c cooling, i am not sure where i could place a boiler, i think it would be a large job to tear out the electric baseboard heaters to install hot water, i thought about these mini split systems to help get more heat to my lower level . at this time i do have a gravity feed free standing oil stove which is nice when it is on but a real pain to keep clean and relite. the Weil-Mclain boiler unit what size cabinet is it ?
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About the size of a big suitcase.
 
I'd never go back. Work but the heat can't be beat.

20181211_215717.jpg
 
Another option to consider is a pellet stove. They cost around $800-1000 for the size you need and burn about 40 lbs of pellets per day to heat the entire house. 40 lbs bags of pellets cost around $5-6 so figure around $175/Mo in fuel cost. You can run the HVAC air recirculating fan on low to distribute the heat more evenly. You can then run a separate AC system for Summer.

Just another option to consider.
 
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