67 dart stroker hellcat gen3 hemi with twin turbos...

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one thing i did saturday was pull the cam sensor out and reinstall with a shorter retaining bolt. well technically i placed a washer on it as it may have been bottomed out and sensor losing the reading. now im not positive thats the case but i could catch a fine tip scribe under it. havent tried to run the car after i dont think. ive been to busy, lazy, and no ***** given this weekend. if it was carbed id have been done with all this bs already.
 
well...ecu checks out. its not ecu says holley. so ive got harness issues somewhere and need to trace them. this is how pissed off atthe car i am. ive not even considered looking at it til this point. yet im still uncertain i wanna continue on either. probably something totally stupid like ground placed wrong or incorrect pinout from factory. ive still not found my main harness wiring diagrm to look it over.
 
I have limited experience with Holley, but I have plenty of experience with Megasquirt. I once read if you think you have enough grounds with EFI, add more. Make sure the ground for the Holley goes to the battery. Also, make sure you have a good ground from the battery to the engine block, engine block to chassis, etc. I don't know how many grounds Holley has in their harness, but the sensor grounds should be common with the battery ground. Only way to do that is to tie everything together so you don't create a ground loop.
Also, is it possible for you to data log when the problem occurs? You should be able to look at cam and crank signal and see which one is going away.
The megasquirt software (Tunerstudio) has a function to look at both cam and crank signals at the same time while cranking. Does the Holley software have that function?
 
Oh man i feel your pain. I chased a rpm input drop for a year and a half. Tried everything. I got fed up and went back to square one. GROUNDS. I put a ground lug in the trunk and one in the engine compartment. I connected both directly to the battery with 2/0 cable. All grounds go there except the “clean ECU ground which still goes directly to the battery. I then ran 2/0 cable to the block. Both heads and the intake manifold. Problem solved. I never thought a ground could be the problem since everything works perfectly but it had some ecu “glitches” of course Holley was no help. I was so impressed with my fix that i did it to one of my street cars that was hard to start. It totally fixed issues i had no idea i had an issue with.
 
ive checked double checked and tripe checked grounds.
motor is grounded by motor plate as well as ground from each head. big wire gounds not small gauge.

im leaning heavily on it being pinned wrong in the harness. just havent gotten the wiring schematic to find out for certain.
 
turbofreek said:
ive checked double checked and tripe checked grounds.
motor is grounded by motor plate as well as ground from each head. big wire gounds not small gauge.

im leaning heavily on it being pinned wrong in the harness. just havent gotten the wiring schematic to find out for certain.
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I’m not sure grounding through the motor plate is very effective. I ran cable from the battery directly to the block even though I have a motor plate as well. No issues.
 
Hemirunner said:
I’m not sure grounding through the motor plate is very effective. I ran cable from the battery directly to the block even though I have a motor plate as well. No issues.
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i have a mid plate and motor plate solid mounted to the frame rails. ill have to check it over again. its been 6 months since ive hinted a give a **** moment in mind. lol
 
turbofreek said:
ive checked double checked and tripe checked grounds.
motor is grounded by motor plate as well as ground from each head. big wire gounds not small gauge.
im leaning heavily on it being pinned wrong in the harness. just havent gotten the wiring schematic to find out for certain.
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Mine was too. Unless the heads are grounded directly to the battery. No worries if you don’t believe it. I didn’t believe it either. Someone said “hey maybe you have a ground issue” and i totally blew them off. I wish i hadn't. The wiring schematic is in the holley software that you tune with. I took my harness out. TWICE! And pinned and tested for grounds. I switched from the dual synch distributor to a dedicated crank trigger and shielded the entire harness. So much work. Also if you are running non-resistor spark plugs, buy resistor plugs. I found they made all my inputs dirty.
 
turbodart68 said:
Mine was too. Unless the heads are grounded directly to the battery. No worries if you don’t believe it. I didn’t believe it either. Someone said “hey maybe you have a ground issue” and i totally blew them off. I wish i hadn't. The wiring schematic is in the holley software that you tune with. I took my harness out. TWICE! And pinned and tested for grounds. I switched from the dual synch distributor to a dedicated crank trigger and shielded the entire harness. So much work. Also if you are running non-resistor spark plugs, buy resistor plugs. I found they made all my inputs dirty.
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interesting. heads ground strait to battery. checked tonight(pic included) i installed them and ground goes back to battery. they are also tight not loose on connectors etc..
im running factory 6.1 coils but do have old plug wires. which im leaning hard on replacing asap with better wires.
running ngk6010 plugs. not sure if resistor or not right now.
it doesnt have a miss fire. it literally loses cam sink at random. it might do it at idle. it might do it at wot on a pull or maybe just trying clean rev the engine. never a crank sensor error in the system logs.
im hoping v6 update software does the trick but ive yet to install it. plan to this weekend.

now besides that issue. non of my i/os work either. my boost controller did for about half a pass and died as well. never to work again.
no cheap sensors except on my water pressure sensor. it worked for maybe 10 seconds and **** the bed to.
ive replaced the driveshaft sensor twice. no luck. has power, signal and ground...no operation. checked gap and adjusted to closed to wide open..nada.
cant go fast or make a full 660ft pass till dss and cam sync issues are resolved. sucks having a car i know will run well into the 5s on 5psi but cant make it to the stripe without problems.
never mind my bump box doesnt work.
so ******* frustrating. its warm enough to test but when ***** fucked. nothing but defeating to say the least.

20210120_211939.jpg
 
turbofreek said:
interesting. heads ground strait to battery. checked tonight(pic included) i installed them and ground goes back to battery. they are also tight not loose on connectors etc..
im running factory 6.1 coils but do have old plug wires. which im leaning hard on replacing asap with better wires.
running ngk6010 plugs. not sure if resistor or not right now.
it doesnt have a miss fire. it literally loses cam sink at random. it might do it at idle. it might do it at wot on a pull or maybe just trying clean rev the engine. never a crank sensor error in the system logs.
im hoping v6 update software does the trick but ive yet to install it. plan to this weekend.

now besides that issue. non of my i/os work either. my boost controller did for about half a pass and died as well. never to work again.
no cheap sensors except on my water pressure sensor. it worked for maybe 10 seconds and **** the bed to.
ive replaced the driveshaft sensor twice. no luck. has power, signal and ground...no operation. checked gap and adjusted to closed to wide open..nada.
cant go fast or make a full 660ft pass till dss and cam sync issues are resolved. sucks having a car i know will run well into the 5s on 5psi but cant make it to the stripe without problems.
never mind my bump box doesnt work.
so ******* frustrating. its warm enough to test but when ***** fucked. nothing but defeating to say the least.

View attachment 1715674386
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We are having similar problems. My bump wasn’t working (Holley V5) either. It works now but it’s not perfect. I have to spend more time on the brake to get the settings dialed. Those plugs are non-resistor. Its amazing how sensitive the EFI is on grounds. David Reher of Reher-Morrison did an excellent article on grounding ignitions. He stated that on aluminum heads you need to ground both ends and that chassis grounds are not good enough. This was from the early 90’s before widespread efi.
 
turbodart68 said:
We are having similar problems. My bump wasn’t working (Holley V5) either. It works now but it’s not perfect. I have to spend more time on the brake to get the settings dialed. Those plugs are non-resistor. Its amazing how sensitive the EFI is on grounds. David Reher of Reher-Morrison did an excellent article on grounding ignitions. He stated that on aluminum heads you need to ground both ends and that chassis grounds are not good enough. This was from the early 90’s before widespread efi.
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my car was professionally wired but ameteur tuned.lol waiting to get it back into shop to find the issues. im just getting the itch with 55° temps and bordem setting in. wish i could find the issues myself. life stresses are on the assault so im not overly motivated...just yet. by friday that might change though.
 
turbofreek said:
my car was professionally wired but ameteur tuned.lol waiting to get it back into shop to find the issues. im just getting the itch with 55° temps and bordem setting in. wish i could find the issues myself. life stresses are on the assault so im not overly motivated...just yet. by friday that might change though.
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How frustrating! I feel your pain. I got my new build to the track for the first time last Friday. Made one slow, spinning pass, went back for a 2nd pass and all of the sudden the engine didn’t want to even idle. The CLT temp was wigging out going all over the place and the ECU thought the engine needed fuel for a cold start and then all of the sudden for 180* and then back to cold. I ended up nursing it down the track, putting it on the trailer and going home. Next morning I swapped out the temp sensor and everyone was happy. Sabotaged by a $26 sensor!
On your Holley, can you set it up for non-sequential/batch fire and bypass the cam sensor? I like a “process of elimination” for troubleshooting these things. Disable the cam sensor. Does it run better? If so, you’ve narrowed it down to that. Still runs shitty without the cam sensor? It’s likely a different issue.
On my Megasquirt I ran dedicated positive and negative to the unit directly from the battery. The unit is powered on by a relay and 12v key of course but I did not want to share main +/- with anything else in the car.
I don’t think you can overdo the grounding.
Don’t give up! Just go slow and be methodical.
 
i have to update the firmware to v6 to remove cam sync after start. thats something i may tackle this weekend. it very well could be a ground missing or broken. ive not been able to find it. as my dash has to be removed to do so. that is a chore for 1 person to do.
 
I hate to beat a dead horse or sound like a broken record, but if all of your electronics are malfunctioning, I'm leaning on the grounds. It sounds like you may have some ground currents going through the sensors and taking them out.
The definition of voltage is the difference of potential. If you have a ground separated by 5' of frame rail, and you measure those points with a very precise ohmmeter, there will be some resistance between those points (difference of potential) simply due to the resistance of the steel. Current is like water, it will take the path of least resistance. This will create problems for those sensors/electronics. Often times loads of current will flow through the one good ground point (sensor ground) and overload the capacity of that ground. Hence, failing a sensor. I know some of this may be hard to believe. Not to toot my own horn, but being an electrical engineer, I've seen some crazy failures due to poor grounding practices. Take a look at the grounds on a modern car. It almost seems ridiculous. There's a reason for that.
Make sure all sensors have a common ground point, and make sure that point connects to battery ground. Don't rely on the chassis as being a good conductor for grounds.
I have my battery grounded to stud I welded to the frame, the engine has the same. I made a conscience effort to land all electronic and gauge grounds to one spot, which also has a large wire back to the battery. It seems like overkill, but I haven't had any problems with sensors not working.
 
On the V5 you can pit it in batch fire. It will run but your tune up will be horribly rich. I used that to diagnose a no start issue. It wont help on an intermittent problem.
 
the car runs well enough i can drive it to and from anywhere. it just randomly stumbles out with a cam sync error of 40+° which would equal massive engine failure if that occured. as cam is huge and pistons are close for comfort. im assuming its sync error.
also assuming ground issue with i/o harness being wrongly pinned from holley or broken wire i cant find or trace to this point
 
turbofreek said:
the car runs well enough i can drive it to and from anywhere. it just randomly stumbles out with a cam sync error of 40+° which would equal massive engine failure if that occured. as cam is huge and pistons are close for comfort. im assuming its sync error.
also assuming ground issue with i/o harness being wrongly pinned from holley or broken wire i cant find or trace to this point
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have you done a datalog? Can you email it to me?
 
turbodart68 said:
have you done a datalog? Can you email it to me?
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shows nothing for the my i/o's but shows cam sync error only. shows either losing it or going 40° out from sync. its been remotely looked at by awell respected tuner of holley and mopars. is why i sent my ecu off to be tested. as it had shown 43.5psi on my boost controller sensor with it unplugged from sensor and then from harness unpinned. so gotta be a wiring issue. stuff i forgot over the last few months is coming back. im looking over my laptop now and seeing what i can. try to find something simple or stupid. yet dont wanna burn up my ecu ******* around either.
 
turbofreek said:
the car runs well enough i can drive it to and from anywhere. it just randomly stumbles out with a cam sync error of 40+° which would equal massive engine failure if that occured. as cam is huge and pistons are close for comfort. im assuming its sync error.
also assuming ground issue with i/o harness being wrongly pinned from holley or broken wire i cant find or trace to this point
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I’m amazed that you still think the harness is pinned wrong after all the comments. The cam/crank sensor leads are super sensitive to RF issues if not shielded and even then, if near a plug wire you could have issues and it was already pointed out to go to a resistor plug. Bad grounds just compound rf issues.
 
Hemirunner said:
I’m amazed that you still think the harness is pinned wrong after all the comments. The cam/crank sensor leads are super sensitive to RF issues if not shielded and even then, if near a plug wire you could have issues and it was already pointed out to go to a resistor plug. Bad grounds just compound rf issues.
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i am fighting 2 comletely seperate issues here not just the cam sync error. because the cam sensor is a known issue with holley and g3 hemis.
nothing is even remotely close to the crank or cam sensor. which is heavily shielded from plug to ecu. i have had no crank sensor errors what so ever. only cam sync issues reading more than 30° timing change at the cam sensor but not the crank sensor.
all and i mean all of my inputs and outputs sensors do NOT work and have never worked. my boost psi sensor worked once. then it stuck a reading of 43.5psi on the ecu evenwith the sensors(all of them) unplugged from the ecu at the plug. as in i unplugged the i/o harness from the ecu. which lead me and a highly experienced pro tuner to have ecu checked. so i did. it came back okay.
i have yet to explore more since installing the ecu back in the car and go for a city drive around town. im yet to pull the logs from that day.
ive yet to install the v6 firmware as well which allows the cam sensor to be turned off once running.

the plugs in my car ARE resistor ngk plugs part number ngk-6010's 2 steps colder from stock. check for yourself.

the reasons are many and ive followed several peoples heres advice the best i could with no resolution to date. im sick i dont move around to well anymore. so i cant just hope on the car like id like to and find the problems. 5yrs ago id have solved it in a single evening. nobody wants my car to work more than i do. if i dont race it this year its over. i wont make it to the next one.
 
turbofreek said:
i am fighting 2 comletely seperate issues here not just the cam sync error. because the cam sensor is a known issue with holley and g3 hemis.
nothing is even remotely close to the crank or cam sensor. which is heavily shielded from plug to ecu. i have had no crank sensor errors what so ever. only cam sync issues reading more than 30° timing change at the cam sensor but not the crank sensor.
all and i mean all of my inputs and outputs sensors do NOT work and have never worked. my boost psi sensor worked once. then it stuck a reading of 43.5psi on the ecu evenwith the sensors(all of them) unplugged from the ecu at the plug. as in i unplugged the i/o harness from the ecu. which lead me and a highly experienced pro tuner to have ecu checked. so i did. it came back okay.
i have yet to explore more since installing the ecu back in the car and go for a city drive around town. im yet to pull the logs from that day.
ive yet to install the v6 firmware as well which allows the cam sensor to be turned off once running.

the plugs in my car ARE resistor ngk plugs part number ngk-6010's 2 steps colder from stock. check for yourself.

the reasons are many and ive followed several peoples heres advice the best i could with no resolution to date. im sick i dont move around to well anymore. so i cant just hope on the car like id like to and find the problems. 5yrs ago id have solved it in a single evening. nobody wants my car to work more than i do. if i dont race it this year its over. i wont make it to the next one.
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Man this is terrible. Is there someone you can drop the car off at to look at it? I really really feel your frustration.
 
Agree. Please don’t give up. I’ve followed your build from the beginning and would really like to see you make a clean pass. Hopefully some words of encouragement from us will help keep you motivated. And take care of yourself, your car can wait if your body needs to heal.
 
Definitely don’t give up, it’s just a car and it’ll get fixed. If none of the sensors are working, that’s got to be a wiring issue or a setup issue within the Holley. Who wired it and who built the tune? In my experience, the same guy needs to do both, or at least the tuner needs to be able to read the wiring diagram in order to configure things correctly. These Holley systems are everywhere. Find a local willing to help.
 
If I were asked to look at it, one of the first things I'd do is verify analog voltages coming in. A volt meter can verify TPS, MAP, CTS, and other values AT THE ECU. Are there discrepancies between the observed values & the displayed values? If I know the analog signal is present, and at a proper voltage, next I'd check the ECU configurations.

Although I'm not familiar with the specific Holley unit, most Stand-Alone's allow you to configure inputs as digital or analog. If analog, you can scale the low/high thresholds (0-5, 0-15). I'd go back & review the CONFIGs in the software.

I would then break out the O-scope (which most people don't have) and watch digital signals like CPS, CMS, etc. It might be a glitchy digital signal indicating possibly a questionable ground or connector pin (mentioned many times already) or EMF interference from a coil or injector or something.

It is apparent your issues are not Standard Answer Number 1. You may need to just look at different things and let the system guide you to the issue. (I do electronics for a living and what might jump out at me as obvious may be missed by someone not as familiar with electronics.). Hope this helps.
 
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