Last one to post in this thread wins!

Jesus said the sign of an disciple is love, if i cant have a loving discussion with people i disagree with, im not helping anyone

(i always like to joke with the wife, that my life verse is Ephesians 4:15 "speaking the truth in love" im just not very good at remembering the latter part)

i think you are correct in not dividing the old testament from the new, as far as application goes, you and i are saved by looking at the completed work of Jesus Christ, just like Moses and Hezekiah were...only difference is, they looked ahead, and we look back at it.

as far as not believing in a Church, let me toss a verse at you, Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it"
of course the teaching here is the sacrificial love that men are to have for their wives, but did you ever stop to consider the implications of the example of Christ?

according to this verse, He gave Himself for the Church, so what does that say about those outside of the Church?
one could argue that this would place you outside of the group of people Christ gave Himself for
(im not going to make that argument, but it is something to ponder)

i will make this argument "without going to church, you will never be the person God intended you to be"
i make that argument based on Ephesians 4:11-13
" And he (that is Christ) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

according to those verses, God wants you to be a perfect man, measuring up to Christ and in order to get you there, He (through Christ) gave gifts to the Church...among which, pastors

Now, this is the avenue that God provided for us to mature, and if we place ourselves outside of this avenue we will never reach that full potential



i agree with you that there is no biblical decree which states pastors or sundayschool teachers need a special education, but there is a pattern there
Moses spend 40 years in the desert before he lead the people out of Egypt
Paul spend 3 years in the desert after his conversion
and Apollos (remember him? he was one of the people whom the Corinthians followed) is said to have been...lemme just quote it, Acts 18:24-26
"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."

this man is said to have been "mighty in the scriptures" BEFORE Aquila and Priscilla took him in and taught him some more

so the leaders of the church are not to be unlearned, but i agree, they need to be taught in the proper way

there is one more point you brought up which i would love to address
one of my all time favorite characters from the old testament is Melchisedec
some say He was Christ incarnate before Christ was born (i do not think so, personally, but i cant be dogmatic)
now, how does he fit into this conversation?
you brought up the 501 C3, tax exemption status...did you know that is based on an encounter Abraham had with Melchisedec?

it is found in Genesis 14, but expounded upon in Hebrews 7
the story is simple, Abraham and the men of his house go to war to free his nephew Lot who is taken prisoner
Abraham overcomes and end up bringing back some plunder
on the way back to his house he is met by Melchisedec, and Abraham gives Him an offering, he basically pays him tithes
(Hebrews 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better)
the tithe is given by the less to the better to show the position of the lesser

our founding fathers looked at this and said realized that we as a country are blessed by the Church, and since the Church was purchased by God, with Christ's own Blood, the state CAN NOT tax it (receive tithes) because the state is in fact, the lesser of the two


there, that oughta be good for some discussion