Torsion Bar Install

-
Johnny Dart said:
Something else to remember.

Dont tighten the lower control arm nut(bolt through k-member), untill the car is on the ground, and the suspension height has been set.

Always loosen the lower control arm nut, when adjusting the height.

Failure to do either will damage/rip the lower control arm bushing.
Click to expand...

The Dodge service manual doesn't say anything about loosening the lower control arm nut when replaceing torsion bars or adjusting ride height. I'm in process of changing torsion bars now. So far I just followed the manual and with the tool the bars came right out. The removal tool was worth every penny. Took minutes to remove a bar including the time to bolt the tool on.
 
what would cause this >>>>>>>>>>>> on a 72 dart ... someone previously installed the bars on the wrong sides ... went to install them on the correct sides and it took threes guys to line that torsion bar up to on into the slots. we had to twist the bar about a 1/4 inch or so to line it up.. we intalled the first ime and got them in set the tension on the bars and could not raise the car at all so took out again and tried for a lower slot on the bar and thats where it took three of us to twist the bars so it would line up.. one guy positioning the pivot another twiisting the bar some and another to hammer it in the backside .
It was a bear to get lined up.. we had the snubbers out on lower control arms and all the was down.. we did not loosen the big nut on the control arm though. maybe should have though.. we were thinking that maybe the bars were the culprit because they were on the wrong side for years and had the wrong twist on them now.
anyone ever run into such a problem lining up those bars like that?
the bars were just 318 bars for a 72 art . nothing special.
Thanks fabo .
 
stroker. I would have taken the LCA off the spindle. That way it would drop more and hope to get you closer to lineing up. But not sure if I would have used those bars.
 
HemiPar said:
stroker. I would have taken the LCA off the spindle. That way it would drop more and hope to get you closer to lineing up. But not sure if I would have used those bars.
Click to expand...

hemipar ...... yeah we should have tried that .. as far as those bars go the car did no ride any differnet by installing them on the correct sides.. it handles terrible.. it drifts all over the road when especially when your not on smooth roads.. the front end is so unstable .. it kind of floaty .. it drifts all over the place . thinking its the bars .. they are junk when installed on the wrongs sides for a period of time. anyone ever have this expirience?
I replaced bars before and never had a cars frontend feel this way .another thing is.... after installed the bars on the correct sides and front end needs another alignment.. it had a drastic change to the alignment from switching the bars around to the correct sides..
 
buck351 said:
The Dodge service manual doesn't say anything about loosening the lower control arm nut when replaceing torsion bars or adjusting ride height. I'm in process of changing torsion bars now. So far I just followed the manual and with the tool the bars came right out. The removal tool was worth every penny. Took minutes to remove a bar including the time to bolt the tool on.
Click to expand...

There are alot of tricks of the trade,which have been discovered through the years, that are not in a service manual. I've been playing with these cars for years,and have learned many of them.

One of the tricks for removal is to loosen the lower control arm,and put a pry bar between the k-frame and lower control arm. This frees up a binded control arm/ torsion bar, making torsion bar removal easier. Notice how I said "Binded". Not all torsion bars are a snap to take out.

Loosening the lower control arm nut just a touch when adjusting ride height,avoids tearing the lower control arm bushing. When the car is set back on the ground (ride height) you can tighten it down.

Do it how you want Buck, doesn't matter to me.
 
buck351 said:
The Dodge service manual doesn't say anything about loosening the lower control arm nut when replaceing torsion bars or adjusting ride height. I'm in process of changing torsion bars now. So far I just followed the manual and with the tool the bars came right out. The removal tool was worth every penny. Took minutes to remove a bar including the time to bolt the tool on.[/QUOTE

I found the service manual can be so vague on some things. One thing I have heard is that we should also loosen the strut rod nut and tighten that after the adjustments are made. I know by my own experience that I had to loosen that nut to make the lower control arm hang down.

But one thing is unclear to me. I understand the importance of loosening the pivot shaft nut. And that is so that the pivot shaft rotates with the bushing instead of stretching the rubber bushing. But if that shaft has not been removed for awhile or never before...perhaps merely loosening that nut won't cause the shaft to rotate freely no?
Click to expand...
 
yellowghost said:
buck351 said:
The Dodge service manual doesn't say anything about loosening the lower control arm nut when replaceing torsion bars or adjusting ride height. I'm in process of changing torsion bars now. So far I just followed the manual and with the tool the bars came right out. The removal tool was worth every penny. Took minutes to remove a bar including the time to bolt the tool on.[/QUOTE

I found the service manual can be so vague on some things. One thing I have heard is that we should also loosen the strut rod nut and tighten that after the adjustments are made. I know by my own experience that I had to loosen that nut to make the lower control arm hang down.

But one thing is unclear to me. I understand the importance of loosening the pivot shaft nut. And that is so that the pivot shaft rotates with the bushing instead of stretching the rubber bushing. But if that shaft has not been removed for awhile or never before...perhaps merely loosening that nut won't cause the shaft to rotate freely no?
Click to expand...

I did have to loosen the nut to get it to rotate just enough extra bit to get the bar into the socket even with the rubber stop removed.
Click to expand...
 
stroker402 said:
hemipar ...... yeah we should have tried that .. as far as those bars go the car did no ride any differnet by installing them on the correct sides.. it handles terrible.. it drifts all over the road when especially when your not on smooth roads.. the front end is so unstable .. it kind of floaty .. it drifts all over the place . thinking its the bars .. they are junk when installed on the wrongs sides for a period of time. anyone ever have this expirience?
I replaced bars before and never had a cars frontend feel this way .another thing is.... after installed the bars on the correct sides and front end needs another alignment.. it had a drastic change to the alignment from switching the bars around to the correct sides..
Click to expand...

I'm dealing with something like this right now on my 75 Duster 318. I rebuilt my front end a couple of years ago and installed slightly larger .890 bars. Had it aligned in the fall and it drifted all over the road. I put it away for the winter, didn't drive it all last summer and now I'm driving it again. It's like navigating a shopping cart down the freeway. It was sitting almost on the bump stops, so I cranked it up to 1" of spacing and then the rear end was uneven. I figured I was off one increment on the RH torsion bar and have it all apart now. Upper ball joint disconnected, brake line, shock, strut bar, adjustment bolt out and lever pushed down to limit, LCA hanging down until it hits the frame and I can't quite get the torsion bar to line up. It needs to rotate another few degrees. I should note that the LCA pivot hole did break and wallow out years ago and I welded a plate over it to repair. Maybe it's not positioned correctly - it was a little bit of a guess. Still have no confidence that if I solve all of this, the bars are going to be correct. Should I get new bars? Should I have to disconnect everything and swing a LCA all the way down to install them?
 
TJman said:
I'm dealing with something like this right now on my 75 Duster 318. I rebuilt my front end a couple of years ago and installed slightly larger .890 bars. Had it aligned in the fall and it drifted all over the road. I put it away for the winter, didn't drive it all last summer and now I'm driving it again. It's like navigating a shopping cart down the freeway. It was sitting almost on the bump stops, so I cranked it up to 1" of spacing and then the rear end was uneven. I figured I was off one increment on the RH torsion bar and have it all apart now. Upper ball joint disconnected, brake line, shock, strut bar, adjustment bolt out and lever pushed down to limit, LCA hanging down until it hits the frame and I can't quite get the torsion bar to line up. It needs to rotate another few degrees. I should note that the LCA pivot hole did break and wallow out years ago and I welded a plate over it to repair. Maybe it's not positioned correctly - it was a little bit of a guess. Still have no confidence that if I solve all of this, the bars are going to be correct. Should I get new bars? Should I have to disconnect everything and swing a LCA all the way down to install them?
Click to expand...

It's totally normal to have to disconnect everything and allow the LCA to swing all the way down to install the torsion bar. In fact, that is the procedure outlined in the factory manual.

It is of course possible something is out of alignment if you did some welding on the LCA pivot tube in the K frame, but so far I don't see a reason to suspect that's an issue.

Why did you pull the torsion bar? It's not uncommon for the torsion bar adjuster settings to be different from one side to the other. That difference should be slight, but honestly its probably more unusual for the torsion bar adjuster settings to be identical than it is for them to be a little different. You're talking about a 46 year old uni-body after all. And you probably don't have all the loads in the car perfectly balanced either. Also, if your torsion bars weren't new, it's totally possible they haven't aged identically. A little more sag on one side than other can create the difference in ride height or the need for a different adjustment side to side to get the car level.

As for the shopping car feeling, that's most likely because the alignment was done using factory specifications. If you have radial tires and factory alignment specs, well, the car will feel like that because the alignment is wrong. You need more positive caster for radial tires. The alignment needs to be done anyway if you've changed the ride height, as that will also change the alignment. You should base your new alignment on the SKOSH chart.

skoshchart-jpg.jpg
 
whenever removing bars for any reason you must measure ride height first and return it to that measurement. Otherwise completely checking and probably correcting, toe, caster, and camber is required. Otherwise it could be "like navigating a shopping cart down the freeway"
 
sccachallenger said:
whenever removing bars for any reason you must measure ride height first and return it to that measurement. Otherwise completely checking and probably correcting, toe, caster, and camber is required. Otherwise it could be "like navigating a shopping cart down the freeway"
Click to expand...

While it is definitely true that you have to change the alignment if you change the ride height, even if you measured very carefully and returned everything to the same place with the factory alignment specs you'd still feel like you're driving a shopping cart. Because that's what driving a car with radials and 0° caster feels like.
 
72bluNblu said:
While it is definitely true that you have to change the alignment if you change the ride height, even if you measured very carefully and returned everything to the same place with the factory alignment specs you'd still feel like you're driving a shopping cart. Because that's what driving a car with radials and 0° caster feels like.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and so can toe out, unequal camber, negative caster, and unequal tire pressure!
 
I had given the Skosh chart to the tech and they were supposed to align to the "typ. performance street" specs, but who knows what they actually did. I felt though, that this was a bigger problem than a dubious alignment. I noticed the front end was sitting almost on the bump stops, so I raised it up to about 1" spacing. It seemed better until I took the car for a ride and the rear sagged more than an inch on the right side. The adjustment screws were uneven too.
I talked to to guy at firm feel yesterday about it and he was even a little vague about clocking - like it was my choice whether to drop the LCA to the frame or catch the next hex on it's way up.
My plan for now is to take apart the drivers side and see how it's clocked. If it's in the LCA-to-the-frame position, I'll try to wrestle the pass side into the same pos. If it's not, I'll just make them the same on the first hex from the bottom and see how it sits.
 
Last edited:
Well, I took the 75 Duster to the alignment shop and they didn't know what to do with it. The caster numbers weren't impressive, but I'm convinced this isn't an alignment, tires, etc problem. I used to align this myself with 25yo components, before offset bushings, with a tape measure, with no concept of caster, and drive it down the freeway at 90mph on air shocks and 20yo tires and I didn't have this problem.
Anyway, my new theory is that the pitman arm is off 90 degrees and the gear box is not operating on center. I don't know why that would have changed, as I never removed it myself and the shop shouldn't have had to take it off, but somehow my steering wheel is 90 deg to the right while my wheels are aligned and sleeves are almost out of threads to work with on both sides.
POA: disconnect center link - turn steering wheel back and forth to find center, hopfully verify that pitman arm is 90 deg off, Hopefully find that it has 4 blind spines, correct the position, reconnect center link. Drive it to the nearest brewery.

IMG_3535_20210712_104320.jpg
 
Another example of why this site is so great. Old threads don't get deleted so they can come back to life for further discussion....

One thing I'll add I've not seen anyone talk about regarding installing new torsion bars. I always scrape the paint or powder coating completely off the hex ends right down to bare metal. Since you're (hopefully) going to grease them up anyway, no need to worry about rust. Sometimes the paint or powder coat can be pretty thick and make installing or even removing the next time difficult. By removing the paint or powder coat, you assure an easy install and removal.
 
Update: It wasn't the pitman arm - the position was correct. Two different alignment shops told me that there wasn't enough adjustment to straighten my wheel, but I simply adjusted it straight with my tie rod sleeves and approximated my toe-in. The handling is improved. I'm now convinced that the remaining problem IS alignment. I plan to order some firm feel adjustable strut bars and try that. My previous setup had one bar that I had threaded and installed jam nuts on back in highschool(!) to compensate for a wollowed out and haphazardly repaired LCA pivot. Probably the missing link here. Hopefully I won't need to splurge on adjustable UCA's to straighten this out.
 
TJman said:
Update: It wasn't the pitman arm - the position was correct. Two different alignment shops told me that there wasn't enough adjustment to straighten my wheel, but I simply adjusted it straight with my tie rod sleeves and approximated my toe-in. The handling is improved. I'm now convinced that the remaining problem IS alignment. I plan to order some firm feel adjustable strut bars and try that. My previous setup had one bar that I had threaded and installed jam nuts on back in highschool(!) to compensate for a wollowed out and haphazardly repaired LCA pivot. Probably the missing link here. Hopefully I won't need to splurge on adjustable UCA's to straighten this out.
Click to expand...

Sounds like as is all too often you found an alignment shop that doesn't know how to do alignments.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top