Alterkation question. .....

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this is good discussions here. I am on the fence about torsion bar setup vs alterkation/other setup.... i have done a lot of autox in my daily driver so I'm looking for similar setup/feel. I'm very new to the torsion bar setup world and just seem harder to tweak but then I don't have someone (except here) to tell me what's what... like how to lower the car (currently has a front rake to it)

anyways, every car is just slightly different with engine/header/steering/suspension combo.... so it's hard to make general statement without considering the car combo... like for instance... I have a BB in my demon and had to dimple the crap of my driver side headers to have minimal clearance from the borgeson steering box... to which still seems like there's play at the steering wheel
 
Sorry, but, there's a ton of less than fully accurate info here.

TTI's 1 7/8" headers are designed to fit with torsion bars. I have Doug's 1 5/8" on mine with 1.12" bars. They might take some dimples on the tubes, but that's a far cry from custom headers. The header clearance difference between a .87" bar and a 1.12" bar is only 1/8". That's not even a big dimple on a header tube, and that assumes the little bars touch.

Weight? It's only a big improvement if you switch from OE power steering to a manual rack. These weights are all for an HDK conversion, not an Alterkation, but the weights are likely pretty similar. Manual steering OE K to an HDK with a manual rack is only ~31 lbs savings. A Borgeson with an OE K to an HDK with power steering is only ~35 lbs savings. With an OE power steering box to an HDK with a power rack the weight savings is ~50 lbs. The only way to save big IMO is to go OE power steering to a manual rack, which is ~71 lbs. Even comparing a Borgeson to a manual rack is ~56.6 lbs. And none of that considers any change in the CG, because the coilovers put the weight higher than the torsion bars do.

All the weights of the individual components are listed here Anybody running the RMS AlterKation? Was it really worth the cost?

You need multiple sets of coil over springs to really tune a coil-over suspension, otherwise you're mostly just changing damping and rebound and you can do that with adjustable shocks on a torsion bar system. Springs are springs, whether they're coils or bars.

Money? You can have pretty much the most expensive stuff there is for torsion bars and still save thousands. I did. And I have stuff that you don't necessarily need (like tubular LCA's, fancy ball joints, spring sliders, etc).

RMS Alterkation w/engine mounts and without brakes - $4,995
RMS Street Lynx - $1,995

Total: $6,990 (keep in mind this doesn't include installing the street lynx, which takes welding)

This is everything I have on my Duster. It's not the cheapest way to do it, although it's not the most expensive either (ie, complete Hotchkis TVS). I didn't spend this much, as some of the parts I listed at full price I actually bought second hand for less (like the steering box for only $300). Even leaving out the rear coilover conversion, you can do the whole car cheaper than just the front AlterK. Even with all new components priced out this is a $2,800 savings.

Front:
1.12" torsion bars from Firm Feel: $355
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA's:$395
Bergman Autocraft Delrin LCA bushings: $80
Firm Feel greaseable LCA pins: $135
Howe Racing upper ball joints: $130
Proforged lower ball joints:$80
QA1 LCA's: $395
Hotchkis Shocks: $475
Hellwig 55905 front bar: $175
Flaming River 16:1 steering box: $610
QA1 tie rod sleeves: $50
Proforged tie rods (all): $65
Moog pitman and idler arms: $80
Adjustable PST strut rods:$300
Rear:
Hellwig 6908 rear bar: $180 (this is the Ebody bar I run with my B-body rear axle)
AFCO 20231M springs: $320
AFCO leaf spring sliders: $200
Dr. Diff 1/2" spring offset:$150
Leaf spring perches: $15

Front suspension: 3,325
Rear suspension : 865

Total: $4,190

Coil Over vs Torsion Bar

Sorry for the distraction, but you can have an all out torsion bar car for far less money than a conversion, only give up 30 lbs of weight (with a lower CG) manual to manual, and still run "off the shelf" headers.



Not without modification. Those posts go up into the holes in the center of the stock K frame. There's nothing there on an Alterkation.

Yes it will but you will need their Tubuar K-frame adapters - USCT7M5012
USCT7M5012-Tubular K-Frame adapters (2 ea)

???


72bluNblu,
You're the one with a ton of less than fully accurate info here. Plus, don't muddy the waters talking about rear suspensions. We could debate that somewhere else.


Look, I test fit the 1-3/4" step headers with my 1.24" Firm Feel bars and I could tell the 1-7/8" headers are going to need some real serious massaging. Not even close. I might just settle for the 1-3/4" step headers and "dimple" the fu<k out of them instead of heavily modifying 1-7/8" TTi's. My engine builder is recommending the bigger headers with my horsepower though.



Looks like I optimized the weight savings then. I am actually running a power rack but use a light Sweet Mfg. pump and my reservoir is about a quart. Doesn't weigh but a few pounds.



71 lbs. is a lot! But Alter-k-tion likely weighs more.



ONE shipping charge. Includes the rack and pinion.

I took the liberty of fixing your prices to reflect current prices using my invoices from BAC and searching Summit. Click to expand.



Price with 1.25" bars and steering - $5,515
Not included is a bunch of shipping charge on at least 15 individual items $$$


I don't know where you're getting your parts from but you must be sponsored or something, LOL. Also, you forgot to add the steering box when doing the comparison.



I'm not debating the effectiveness of said systems. I'm building a torsion bar car right now for Pete's sake. I'm not here poo pooing the torsion bar system, @72bluNblu. I just think it is (1) up to an individual to support the aftermarket how they want too, (2) these coilover systems foot the bill for some builds, (3) these coilover systems do perform. And, it's not like the optimized torsion bar system is better or worse (same for the coilovers). They won't make a bad driver good.

I really hope you don't think I'm trying to throw shade but I want to make sure this information is accurate and I think your statement about my info being less than factual is, itself, inaccurate and you conveniently left out info (steering box / brake kits?) to try to prove your point. No hard feelings.


Price with 1.25" bars and steering - $5,515
Not included is a bunch of shipping charge on at least 15 individual items $$$

*This is an updated price of all your stuff on your list that you keep referring to.
And you add in the price of the RMS rear suspension to compare it with the cost of an OE rebuild.
 
this is good discussions here. I am on the fence about torsion bar setup vs alterkation/other setup.... i have done a lot of autox in my daily driver so I'm looking for similar setup/feel. I'm very new to the torsion bar setup world and just seem harder to tweak but then I don't have someone (except here) to tell me what's what... like how to lower the car (currently has a front rake to it)

anyways, every car is just slightly different with engine/header/steering/suspension combo.... so it's hard to make general statement without considering the car combo... like for instance... I have a BB in my demon and had to dimple the crap of my driver side headers to have minimal clearance from the borgeson steering box... to which still seems like there's play at the steering wheel

Here's a pic of the ride height of my car. Next to it is my brothers 2007 Shelby GT 500. As you can see, I'm right there with the ride height of this Modern day muscle car. Also, I can hang with him all day in the twistys , straight aways are a different story as his 6 speed and over 600 hp comes into play vs my 500 hp and 4 speed w/ 3.91's . I had the factory stuff and ill never go back. That's not to say that with the proper mods and the essential knowledge a torsion bar system could not work well also. I also have a much greater weight advantage as I also have aluminum heads, intake, radiator, 11 wilwood disks vs 10' drums which would also be there with a t bar system. A big factor as well for me is clearance in the engine bay which is much better than the stock system with power steering. I don't believe all the crap about this system being unsafe or under-engineered. This system has been out for a long time and I've yet to see or hear any major complaints about it or Reilly Motorsports.
This stuff works. Is it more expensive? Probably, but to me worth every cent!!


dscn5445-jpg.jpg
 
Price with 1.25" bars and steering - $5,515
Not included is a bunch of shipping charge on at least 15 individual items $$$

*This is an updated price of all your stuff on your list that you keep referring to.
And you add in the price of the RMS rear suspension to compare it with the cost of an OE rebuild.

Here's my CURRENT list for just the front, prices current as of TODAY. Summit ships free. FFI and Bergman don't but it's not freight. PST ships free too, for the additional options. I'm sure you can find my other post where this is from.

Front :
QA1 Adjustable strut bars - $243.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing

QA1 LCA’s - $476.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52307 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing

QA1 tie rod sleeves- $68.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing

Proforged tie rod ends- $157.08 (all 4)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10157 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10156 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing

Proforged lower ball joint (driver)- $42.83
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Proforged lower ball joint (passenger)- $39.27
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Hotchkis 1.5 shocks (non adjustable)- $337.44 (just the front 2)
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 70020013 Hotchkis Sport Suspension 1.5 Street Performance Series Shocks | Summit Racing

Howe racing ball joints- $179.98 (both)
1974 DODGE DART Howe Racing 22320S Howe Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Flaming River 16:1 manual steering box- $776.99
1974 DODGE DART Flaming River FR1540 Flaming River Steering Gear Boxes | Summit Racing

Moog pitman arm (manual) - $65.99
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 103-10015 Proforged Pitman Arms | Summit Racing

Moog idler - $51.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7086 Moog Replacement Idler Arms | Summit Racing

Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $231.99
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing

Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA’s (1st gen)- $375
BAC SPC Upper Control Arms - Bergman Auto Craft

BAC Delrin LCA bushings : $76.50
BAC Delrin Lower Control Arm Bushings - Bergman Auto Craft

Firm Feel 1.12” bars- $395
Firmfeel Mopar Suspension and Steering

Firm Feel greasable LCA pins- $125
Firmfeel Mopar Suspension and Steering

Total: $3,644.91

So, that's less than $4,295 for the AlterKation right? Yes. It is $650.12 cheaper. And the street/strip AlterK doesn't have a sway bar, so knock off another $231.99 if you don't want one.

If you substitute these parts…

Proforged ball joints- $19.80 x2
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10126 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Prothane polyurethane LCA bushings-$11.37
1974 DODGE DART Prothane Motion Control 4-205-BL Prothane Front Control Arm Bushings | Summit Racing

PST manual steering box - $339.00
https://p-s-t.com/i-23161668-manual-steering-box-16-1.html#!year=1974||make=DODGE||model=DART

Total: $3,001.41

So now the price is $1,293.59 cheaper. And with parts that most people, myself included, probably wouldn't even notice the difference with on the street.
 
Here's my CURRENT list for just the front, prices current as of TODAY. Summit ships free. FFI and Bergman don't but it's not freight. PST ships free too, for the additional options. I'm sure you can find my other post where this is from.

Front :
QA1 Adjustable strut bars - $243.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing

QA1 LCA’s - $476.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52307 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing

QA1 tie rod sleeves- $68.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing

Proforged tie rod ends- $157.08 (all 4)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10157 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10156 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing

Proforged lower ball joint (driver)- $42.83
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Proforged lower ball joint (passenger)- $39.27
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Hotchkis 1.5 shocks (non adjustable)- $337.44 (just the front 2)
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 70020013 Hotchkis Sport Suspension 1.5 Street Performance Series Shocks | Summit Racing

Howe racing ball joints- $179.98 (both)
1974 DODGE DART Howe Racing 22320S Howe Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Flaming River 16:1 manual steering box- $776.99
1974 DODGE DART Flaming River FR1540 Flaming River Steering Gear Boxes | Summit Racing

Moog pitman arm (manual) - $65.99
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 103-10015 Proforged Pitman Arms | Summit Racing

Moog idler - $51.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7086 Moog Replacement Idler Arms | Summit Racing

Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $231.99
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing

Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA’s (1st gen)- $375
BAC SPC Upper Control Arms - Bergman Auto Craft

BAC Delrin LCA bushings : $76.50
BAC Delrin Lower Control Arm Bushings - Bergman Auto Craft

Firm Feel 1.12” bars- $395
Firmfeel Mopar Suspension and Steering

Firm Feel greasable LCA pins- $125
Firmfeel Mopar Suspension and Steering

Total: $3,644.91

So, that's less than $4,295 for the AlterKation right? Yes. It is $650.12 cheaper. And the street/strip AlterK doesn't have a sway bar, so knock off another $231.99 if you don't want one.

If you substitute these parts…

Proforged ball joints- $19.80 x2
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10126 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Prothane polyurethane LCA bushings-$11.37
1974 DODGE DART Prothane Motion Control 4-205-BL Prothane Front Control Arm Bushings | Summit Racing

PST manual steering box - $339.00
https://p-s-t.com/i-23161668-manual-steering-box-16-1.html#!year=1974||make=DODGE||model=DART

Total: $3,001.41

So now the price is $1,293.59 cheaper. And with parts that most people, myself included, probably wouldn't even notice the difference with on the street.

I’d prefer the lighter aluminum PST steering box that also happens to be less expensive.

And the taller Howe upper ball joints for increased camber gain would have similar advantage to an Alterkion front suspension.

I don’t think the tubular LCA’s are a big gainer over stock in many situations.
I think the big gain is frame clearance for really low cars and if you have to pay someone a lot to weld sway bar brackets on non-sway bar LCA’s.

so there’s an additional $476 off.
 
I’d prefer the lighter aluminum PST steering box that also happens to be less expensive.

And the taller Howe upper ball joints for increased camber gain would have similar advantage to an Alterkion front suspension.

I don’t think the tubular LCA’s are a big gainer over stock in many situations.
I think the big gain is frame clearance for really low cars and if you have to pay someone a lot to weld sway bar brackets on non-sway bar LCA’s.

so there’s an additional $476 off.

I'm not even running tall Howe ball joints, mine are the stock height because I already run FMJ spindles (from junk yard, and the A-body ones would work fine) Or hell, knock another $175 off the total for new ones from DoctorDiff (with shipping). The only gain for the QA1 LCA's is suspension travel IMO, and the new ones actually require some modification for that to be true. Mine are the old style before they added the lower bump stop into the design. I had a reinforced set before the QA1's and they worked great, I just wanted the additional travel because of my ride height. Puts it back on par with the stock amount of travel.
 
Here's my CURRENT list for just the front, prices current as of TODAY. Summit ships free. FFI and Bergman don't but it's not freight. PST ships free too, for the additional options. I'm sure you can find my other post where this is from.

Front :
QA1 Adjustable strut bars - $243.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing

QA1 LCA’s - $476.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52307 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing

QA1 tie rod sleeves- $68.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing

Proforged tie rod ends- $157.08 (all 4)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10157 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10156 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing

Proforged lower ball joint (driver)- $42.83
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Proforged lower ball joint (passenger)- $39.27
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Hotchkis 1.5 shocks (non adjustable)- $337.44 (just the front 2)
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 70020013 Hotchkis Sport Suspension 1.5 Street Performance Series Shocks | Summit Racing

Howe racing ball joints- $179.98 (both)
1974 DODGE DART Howe Racing 22320S Howe Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Flaming River 16:1 manual steering box- $776.99
1974 DODGE DART Flaming River FR1540 Flaming River Steering Gear Boxes | Summit Racing

Moog pitman arm (manual) - $65.99
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 103-10015 Proforged Pitman Arms | Summit Racing

Moog idler - $51.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7086 Moog Replacement Idler Arms | Summit Racing

Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $231.99
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing

Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA’s (1st gen)- $375
BAC SPC Upper Control Arms - Bergman Auto Craft

BAC Delrin LCA bushings : $76.50
BAC Delrin Lower Control Arm Bushings - Bergman Auto Craft

Firm Feel 1.12” bars- $395
Firmfeel Mopar Suspension and Steering

Firm Feel greasable LCA pins- $125
Firmfeel Mopar Suspension and Steering

Total: $3,644.91

So, that's less than $4,295 for the AlterKation right? Yes. It is $650.12 cheaper. And the street/strip AlterK doesn't have a sway bar, so knock off another $231.99 if you don't want one.

If you substitute these parts…

Proforged ball joints- $19.80 x2
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10126 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Prothane polyurethane LCA bushings-$11.37
1974 DODGE DART Prothane Motion Control 4-205-BL Prothane Front Control Arm Bushings | Summit Racing

PST manual steering box - $339.00
https://p-s-t.com/i-23161668-manual-steering-box-16-1.html#!year=1974||make=DODGE||model=DART

Total: $3,001.41

So now the price is $1,293.59 cheaper. And with parts that most people, myself included, probably wouldn't even notice the difference with on the street.


Not sure if this is what you meant but the Street/strip Alterkation does come with a swaybar.
Here it is as I purchaced it.

img_1208-jpg.jpg


BTW, there is also a rear swaybar kit available for the streetlynx rear suspension setup but it is not listed on RMS site. Bill Reilly made it for me. Easy install!!

dscn4825-jpg.jpg
 
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If I ever get lost at sea or in the woods I’m just going to start yelling “ Alterkation” …you can bet your life within 5 minutes 3 people will show up to tell you how stock suspension is better…happy New Year!
 
I can see the argument both ways. Interesting discussion. I once had a real nice handling stock suspension, although modified with good aftermarket parts, 68 barracuda. Most pain in the *** part were those damn TTI headers. I beat the **** out of a set. Lol
 
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