440 Engine Build w Timing issues

Hi,

I'm really puzzled with the timing issues I'm experiencing. This is my second 440 engine build. For a couple reasons, my first build ended up spinning a rod bearing. This next build I was exceptionally meticulous during the installation of main and rod bearings. I also used the spiral locks when I was not supposed to. I did ask several local experts and was told I did not have to degree in the cam since is was same cam, same crank, same hydraulic rolller lifters, etc. So I put the engine together same a previous build. I even went back into to timing cover to align the R with the dot on the timing sprockets to verify same timing. What I'm experiencing is that the car does not want to start unless its 50-60 degrees advanced on initial. I have checked the following:

Timing on crank and cam is as last build (I degreed in the cam 8 times since it was my first build and total timing last build was 36 degrees. Also, first build engine fired up and ran well)
Using borescope and setting the mark on balancer to timing cover at top dead center on compression stoker, my rotor is facing wiring 1 for spark on cylinder 1.
I have triple checked my wires and firing order
I set the lash on the valves using the same video as first build and even took off the cover to make sure valves arent held open
I have checked compression on cylinders
I have spark and fuel (also checked fuel pressure)
I have MSD distributor and ignition which I pulled apart to verify weights are not sticking

When the car is really advanced it will fire up but not run like it used to. I did have back firing out of the carb but I found the distributor gear needed to be re-positioned.

I have tried everything and if I have to tear into the timing cover again I will replace the timing set completely. I was hoping not to do that. I will likely need to degree in the cam again. Any suggestions on doing that while in the car?

Is there anything else I can try that won't require me to drain all the fluids and tear back into motor?

Please HELP!!!!

I see this two ways------either your balancer mark is actually wrong, or regardless of how many times you've degreed the cam, you are doing something wrong.

A borescope is no way to check timing marks. Get/ make yourself a piston stop. This is mine I've had since the 70's. This is for a small block so just an example



if you buy one make sure you figure a way to lock the plunger as some are poorly designed and can wiggle/ move

You are not trying to stop the piston "at TDC" but rather some distance down the bore

To use, disconnect bat, remove no1 plug and make sure piston is down some. Screw in the stop and carefully wrench the engine over. Pulling all plugs makes this easier. When the piston comes up and is stopped on the device, make a temporary mark onto the balancer directly under the TDC mark on the timing plate. Now do the same going CCW, and when done you will have to marks. The true TDC is halfway between your two marks, and if the OEM is correct that is where it will be

Repositioning the dist. gear has nothing to do with timing, so long as you can rotate the dist. body and get at least one tower to align with the rotor and make that tower "no 1"

In fact, you could close your eyes and throw the cam gear in any old way, and put the dist back in either way, and so long as the rotor is approaching a tower which is being utilized for the no1 wire (any tower) it will run and be in time.

My first car w as a 57 Chev 265. Hell I did not know there WAS a "right way" to install the dist. Chevs can be difficult to align the pump drive and keep the rotor where you want. I used to just toss it in and time no1 to wherever the rotor pointed. One day I went to a local service station, and the jock told me "It can't run, it's out of time." "How do you know?" "Because the plug wires are all in the wrong place!!" Well it did run........and ran fine.

Sounds like you're rotor position and distributor cap are not properly aligned. Backfire through the carb is typically retarded timing. Check the position of the wires on the cap, I bet your off. 65'

What dist. do you run?

1...Google "rotor phasing" which is an issue--if the trigger source is reversed polarity
2....Suspect your timing light. Some lights "don't like" MSD. Do not use a "dial up" light on MSD, generally

67Dart273 said:

I see this two ways------either your balancer mark is actually wrong, or regardless of how many times you've degreed the cam, you are doing something wrong.

A borescope is no way to check timing marks. Get/ make yourself a piston stop. This is mine I've had since the 70's. This is for a small block so just an example

View attachment 1715767469

if you buy one make sure you figure a way to lock the plunger as some are poorly designed and can wiggle/ move

You are not trying to stop the piston "at TDC" but rather some distance down the bore

To use, disconnect bat, remove no1 plug and make sure piston is down some. Screw in the stop and carefully wrench the engine over. Pulling all plugs makes this easier. When the piston comes up and is stopped on the device, make a temporary mark onto the balancer directly under the TDC mark on the timing plate. Now do the same going CCW, and when done you will have to marks. The true TDC is halfway between your two marks, and if the OEM is correct that is where it will be

Click to expand...

I would agree with you that something is wrong but if I degreed it in wrong then why did the cam timing work on first build? Same cam, same crank, same lifters. Also, I didn't use borescope to set TDC but more to verify. I do have a piston stop. I will repeat process. Thank you

Two times I had an engine that wouldn't run unless I had 60 degrees initial. I was working on the distributor that had a magnet under the pick-up and I reversed the magnet. We swapped the wires going to the distributor and the timing could be reset to normal. The other time we had reversed the wires going to the distributor and as it was the same symptoms as previous we knew to reverse the wires. This maybe your problem, maybe not.

IQ52 said:

Two times I had an engine that wouldn't run unless I had 60 degrees initial. I was working on the distributor that had a magnet under the pick-up and I reversed the magnet. We swapped the wires going to the distributor and the timing could be reset to normal. The other time we had reversed the wires going to the distributor and as it was the same symptoms as previous we knew to reverse the wires. This maybe your problem, maybe not.

Click to expand...

This. Reversed polararity on the msd. Also @valiantbeast cam timing and ignition timing are two completely different things. Sounds like you are using the terms in the same way. Just want to be clear that you understand cam timing has nothing to do with ignition timing.