Today, dollar for dollar, is the 318 faster than the 340 ???

would you agree ?

  • yep, the 318 wins if buying and building for under 3k

    Votes: 48 41.7%

  • Nope, the 340 always has and always will beat the 318

    Votes: 57 49.6%

  • Actually, never thought about it like this... Good Point !

    Votes: 10 8.7%
  • Total voters
    115
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318willrun said:
well, if somebody has a 340 for heaven's sake build it.... but the guy with the 318 being told to buy and build a 340 doesn't have one. lol
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Same with all the guys tellin people that wanna build a slant 6 to build a V8.
 
rmchrgr said:
Lighten up, Francis. I’m not sure what your argument is and why you need to make it personal?

The 340/360 engines have a 4” bore while the 318 does not. That's a fact. I don't know about you but when building an engine and am given a choice between two blocks with the same external dimensions but one has a larger bore, I’m taking the larger bore EVERY time. Going by physics alone, the larger bore will always make more power because there is more up-swept volume and more volume translates to more air/fuel which = more power. Maybe you wouldn't make the same choice? If not, tell me why.

Also, I'm not sure but are you saying you have personally built NHRA Stock Eliminator 318 combos that held records? if so, please school me because I am forever fascinated by what class racers can do with marginal combos. What chassis in what class? How far under did you go, what elevation, temps. etc.

If you actually have been through that process (I have not myself but know some people that have) then I'm sure you would know it's an uphill battle and that a $3,000 budget wouldn't even be a drop in that bucket. Apologies if I did not interpret that correctly.

However, if you are using the Stock Eliminator angle to cite an example, its not really a valid point because class racing combos are highly specialized pieces. The same would hold true whether we're discussing a 318 in a '77 Volare wagon, an '82 4 cylinder Turbo Mustang or even a FWD Toranado.

Again, unless I'm missing something, the original point of this discussion was whether it's worth it to buy and build a 318 if your budget is $3,000. I say no. The other part of the question was whether or not a 340 is "better", to which I answer yes, every time, for the reasons I stated already.

I believe the reason this discussion has become relevant now is because it's not 1979, it's 2021. 40 years ago, 318s were left for dead because no one cared to bother with them. Going by what people have said for decades, presumably you could just make your way over to the local junkyard and pluck a 340 out of a '74 Road Runner for $50. Whether that was true back then or not I don't know but for sure it ain't happening now!

Standard bore 340s are obviously pretty scarce these days and rightfully command a high price when available. It makes sense, that's just basic supply and demand. Even the "resto" blocks that Mopar was casting 25 years ago are worth their weight in gold now if you can even find one.

But since finding a '74 Road Runner in a local junkyard that retains it's original 340 is not a realistic possibility anymore, people are probably looking at the crusty 318 they have sitting in the shed wondering what could be done to it to make it more fun (because it sucks in stock form). Problem is, no one wants to spend money on this idea because the fact is, it does not add up financially, especially when the cost of machine work is involved. Lipstick on a pig and all that.

Even if you think the supply of LA 360s is drying up, there are millions of 5.9 Magnum engines out there that would be a better candidate for a first-time or budget build over an old LA 318. Even if you're a bucks-down kid just starting out in the hobby, I'd still say to find a 360 or a 5.9 Magnum to start for the reasons I've already stated. It's not an emotional argument, it's economics based on facts and reason.

So without calling me names, telling me I don't know what I'm talking about or skirting around those pesky engine architecture facts, please explain to me why it's worth spending any money on a 318. Change my mind, I'm all ears.
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If you read my post, I never called you any names, Francis. The fact is airflow through the engine makes horsepower. Cubic inches determine what rpm is required to make that horsepower. The larger the engine, the less rpm is needed to get there. The smaller the engine the more rpm it will take to make that horsepower. That is a simplification, but that is how it works. I've been around class racers most of my life. They check intake and exhaust flow through the heads, some times as many as a hundred heads. Then they measure flow through carbs, then the intake. They do not worry about the cylinder bore diameter. The point was there are a lot of 318's that make plenty of HP and turn good times. I'm just a poor, country boy that built engines for people. What ever their dream was. A Vega, 170 Special to go in an early Falcon, more than a few SBF, too many SBC to count, and most Mopar engines except Hemi's. I had no problem building 318 engines, if that was what they had. I could easily get a 318 to beat 360's. Do you really think, if I build a 318 and a 340 using the same heads, cam, compression, and everything else, there will be 100 extra HP for the 340 because it has some "magic" 4+ in bore? But that is not the question here. No one "needs" a 360 with it's cast crank, offset balance and goofy motor mount brackets. I know you can't help yourself, but I could care less about 360's, and I've had them and built them for others. They don't do a thing for me, and I get really tired of people pushing 360's when that is not the question. It's not about me, or you. The thread asked about the cost of building a High Performance 318 vs a 340. You failed the test, because you didn't answer the question.
 
66fs said:
If you read my post, I never called you any names, Francis. The fact is airflow through the engine makes horsepower. Cubic inches determine what rpm is required to make that horsepower. The larger the engine, the less rpm is needed to get there. The smaller the engine the more rpm it will take to make that horsepower. That is a simplification, but that is how it works. I've been around class racers most of my life. They check intake and exhaust flow through the heads, some times as many as a hundred heads. Then they measure flow through carbs, then the intake. They do not worry about the cylinder bore diameter. The point was there are a lot of 318's that make plenty of HP and turn good times. I'm just a poor, country boy that built engines for people. What ever their dream was. A Vega, 170 Special to go in an early Falcon, more than a few SBF, too many SBC to count, and most Mopar engines except Hemi's. I had no problem building 318 engines, if that was what they had. I could easily get a 318 to beat 360's. Do you really think, if I build a 318 and a 340 using the same heads, cam, compression, and everything else, there will be 100 extra HP for the 340 because it has some "magic" 4+ in bore? But that is not the question here. No one "needs" a 360 with it's cast crank, offset balance and goofy motor mount brackets. I know you can't help yourself, but I could care less about 360's, and I've had them and built them for others. They don't do a thing for me, and I get really tired of people pushing 360's when that is not the question. It's not about me, or you. The thread asked about the cost of building a High Performance 318 vs a 340. You failed the test, because you didn't answer the question.
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wow is all I have to say. Lol
 
RustyRatRod said:
You know I'm not a 318 hater. ....but you kinda hanged yourself with the way you asked the question. "Dollar for dollar". ....and dollar for dollar a 318 will never produce the power a 340 will. No how, no way.
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it was to 'buy and build' dollar for dollar rusty, not just 'build' dollar for dollar. you're not the first to have missed that point though :thumbsup:
neil.
doh! too late with that reply :lol:
 
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66fs said:
If you read my post, I never called you any names, Francis. The fact is airflow through the engine makes horsepower. Cubic inches determine what rpm is required to make that horsepower. The larger the engine, the less rpm is needed to get there. The smaller the engine the more rpm it will take to make that horsepower. That is a simplification, but that is how it works. I've been around class racers most of my life. They check intake and exhaust flow through the heads, some times as many as a hundred heads. Then they measure flow through carbs, then the intake. They do not worry about the cylinder bore diameter. The point was there are a lot of 318's that make plenty of HP and turn good times. I'm just a poor, country boy that built engines for people. What ever their dream was. A Vega, 170 Special to go in an early Falcon, more than a few SBF, too many SBC to count, and most Mopar engines except Hemi's. I had no problem building 318 engines, if that was what they had. I could easily get a 318 to beat 360's. Do you really think, if I build a 318 and a 340 using the same heads, cam, compression, and everything else, there will be 100 extra HP for the 340 because it has some "magic" 4+ in bore? But that is not the question here. No one "needs" a 360 with it's cast crank, offset balance and goofy motor mount brackets. I know you can't help yourself, but I could care less about 360's, and I've had them and built them for others. They don't do a thing for me, and I get really tired of people pushing 360's when that is not the question. It's not about me, or you. The thread asked about the cost of building a High Performance 318 vs a 340. You failed the test, because you didn't answer the question.
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Hooookaaaayyy.
Francis.jpg
 
Tbro said:
I guess it boils down to budget and availability. I can only speak for myself. If I had a free or low cost 5.2, then Oregon regrind. 218/224 .530 lift. Airgap clone. 650 Edelbrock avs or whatever could be had on the cheap. Summit 1 5/8 headers and go have fun.

Magnum heads outflow any stock LA head. Of course, porting changes everything. I don't need to compete with a "built" 340. 300-320 makes for satisfying performance with bolt on parts.
If I'm going to buy new pistons it will be a bigger motor. I rented a vehicle. 300hp v6 Challenger, and boy was it much fun.

Oregon Cams has grind 1161 210/215 .498 112, use Hughes spring upgrade. No change to converter or gears.
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pittsburghracer said:
wow is all I have to say. Lol
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I know this is about 318's/340's. But, I mean, I found the 360 to be a great choice for just about anything in the old car world. Bottom end grunt is awesome for pickup trucks or vans, great in heavier family cars, a real street fighter in mild street builds, is drag strip proven for bracket cars, and the most important thing is they are really reliable in all these applications.
 
318willrun said:
I know this is about 318's/340's. But, I mean, I found the 360 to be a great choice for just about anything in the old car world. Bottom end grunt is awesome for pickup trucks or vans, great in heavier family cars, a real street fighter in mild street builds, is drag strip proven for bracket cars, and the most important thing is they are really reliable in all these applications.
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I took a 318 out of my old 1976 van I towed with and did up a 360 with a mild cam, 340 heads, LD4B intake and that sucker was fantastic. Probably had 500.00 in it but I look for deals.
 
pittsburghracer said:
I took a 318 out of my old 1976 van I towed with and did up a 360 with a mild cam, 340 heads, LD4B intake and that sucker was fantastic. Probably had 500.00 in it but I look for deals.
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My '89 Van B250, full size has the 5.9 magnum in it. My '77 short van tradesman 100 has the 318 2bbl in it. The 318 gets about 1.5 mpg better, but it's in a much lighter van. While the 318 does as expected, and a good job, the heavier van with the 5.9 has so much more power.... well, it ran 15.8's consistently. That's almost as fast as a stock 5.0 fox body automatic in the same year... LOL
 
Being as I have examples of both engines at my disposal, I pick the 340. And, more to the point, I wouldn't sink the $$ or time into the 318, if I could sink money and time into a 340. Why? return on investment, I don't mean selling the 340,( although market value of a 340 is a plus) I mean the money/time sank in would return more horsepower out of the 340, and the 340 just comes with beefier better better internals at the time of the initial investment.
 
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273 said:
What gets me is that almost nobody cares about the 90 cid and the 0.32”bore difference between a 440 and 360, but the 20-42 cid and 0.040-0.13” difference between 318/340/360 is a huge chasm. And that a 440 would be happier with 3.55 or less gears, less stall etc.. and yes you could build a 408 out of a 360 but you could build a 543 out of a 440 and I bet dollar for dollar you’d be better off with a 440. I know, I know size weight, price of performance.
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No replacement for displacement
 
66fs said:
I don't understand the 340 envy. I also don't understand the 318 can never be a High Performance build. They are just parts. Put your combination together, and run it. If you pick the right combination and have a clear goal in mind, you should be happy with the results, no matter what block you use.
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It was either AJ Foyt or Mario Andretti I forget which but had a 318 in his Indy Car with 500 HP. at one time.
 
joemish said:
It was either AJ Foyt or Mario Andretti I forget which but had a 318 in his Indy Car with 500 HP. at one time.
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Was it a 318 Chrysler LA engine? I only ask because there is always confusion, Chevy made a 302, Buick made a 340 etc. etc.:)
 
toolmanmike said:
A 71 beefed up teen against a 73 stock 340? Sure. The teen comes out on top every time. The 72-73 340's ran good but not impressive compared to the earlier 340's.
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plus the 73 is what we called a smog motor. All the 71 had was a PVC valve
 
Dartswinger70 said:
Being as I have examples of both engines at my disposal, I pick the 340. And, more to the point, I wouldn't sink the $$ or time into the 318, if I could sink money and time into a 340. Why? return on investment, I don't mean selling the 340,( although market value of a 340 is a plus) I mean the money/time sank in would return more horsepower out of the 340, and the 340 just comes with beefier better better internals at the time of the initial investment.
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Please don't inject common sense or reason into this thread! :rofl:
 
dollar for dollar...i think 318willrun is correct. It's quite easy to find a good running 318 for next to nothing. Add a cheap stock cast iron manifold,a used carb that may need to be rebuilt and cleaned,and a small cam . You will have a nice motor that will be more than fast enough to be fun in a light A body..(especially an early one) for really next to nothing!
a good running 340 does not have next to nothing in it's cost.
 
justinp61 said:
Please don't inject common sense or reason into this thread! :rofl:
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so when the next young man shows up with his 318 4 door dart, says he wants to build some performance on it and has 2500... maybe 3k to spend on the engine.... is it common sense to advise buying a 340 instead??? Many here offer that advice. My question is would that get him the most performance for his money?? Talking in a 1/4 mile race. Obviously the 360 option is golden here but some still advise the 340. At todays prices, should he pay 1500 for a core 340?? Or should that 1500 buy a set of Promaxx heads for the 318 ??? I love 340's, and have owned a few. But at todays prices, I don't think they fit the bill of a low end budget.
  • Or, we could offer up the age old "you can't play until you can pay" advice, which ALWAYS helps the hobby grow... Son, in 10 years of savings, you get to play..... :rolleyes:
 
ir3333 said:
dollar for dollar...i think 318willrun is correct. It's quite easy to find a good running 318 for next to nothing. Add a cheap stock cast iron manifold,a used carb that may need to be rebuilt and cleaned,and a small cam . You will have a nice motor that will be more than fast enough to be fun in a light A body..(especially an early one) for really next to nothing!
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What if you have both (318/340) "sitting around" collecting dust and insect nests....the cost is the same across both, gasket set, timing set, cam, oil pump, rings, blah blah blah machine work...etc. then which, all things considered one would you build? (yes there are folks who have multiple engines siting around in their garage).
 
mygasser said:
it was to 'buy and build' dollar for dollar rusty, not just 'build' dollar for dollar. you're not the first to have missed that point though :thumbsup:
neil.
doh! too late with that reply :lol:
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I didn't miss it. I got it.....MY point was that there are always exceptions.

And I've said he was right before in this thread.....using the narrow parameters he laid out. If you use a funnel, there's only one place what's put in it can go. LOL

I completely agree with nothing and a 3K dollar cash outlay, the 318 will very likely come out on top. I've agreed early on and I still do.

I simply don't like being constrained in little boxes......because life is not that way.
 
66fs said:
If you read my post, I never called you any names, Francis. The fact is airflow through the engine makes horsepower. Cubic inches determine what rpm is required to make that horsepower. The larger the engine, the less rpm is needed to get there. The smaller the engine the more rpm it will take to make that horsepower. That is a simplification, but that is how it works. I've been around class racers most of my life. They check intake and exhaust flow through the heads, some times as many as a hundred heads. Then they measure flow through carbs, then the intake. They do not worry about the cylinder bore diameter. The point was there are a lot of 318's that make plenty of HP and turn good times. I'm just a poor, country boy that built engines for people. What ever their dream was. A Vega, 170 Special to go in an early Falcon, more than a few SBF, too many SBC to count, and most Mopar engines except Hemi's. I had no problem building 318 engines, if that was what they had. I could easily get a 318 to beat 360's. Do you really think, if I build a 318 and a 340 using the same heads, cam, compression, and everything else, there will be 100 extra HP for the 340 because it has some "magic" 4+ in bore? But that is not the question here. No one "needs" a 360 with it's cast crank, offset balance and goofy motor mount brackets. I know you can't help yourself, but I could care less about 360's, and I've had them and built them for others. They don't do a thing for me, and I get really tired of people pushing 360's when that is not the question. It's not about me, or you. The thread asked about the cost of building a High Performance 318 vs a 340. You failed the test, because you didn't answer the question.
Click to expand...

It was Francis. Guys are named Francis. He could have called you Linda. lol
 
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