Symptoms of wrong cam installation

-
B

B3422w5

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
3,743
Reaction score
4,645
Location
Portage michigan
Little brother having issues with his car running as it should
Basic combo
Stock stroke 340, unsure of compression
Supposedly fully ported eddie heads( done years ago by Shady Dell…they went 10.90’s on a 408 he has in another car
260/264 565/565 lift solid cam..106 lsa, supposed to be installed per Howards at 102
Excellerator
950 pro systems
26 in drag radial
4.10 gear
8 inch convertor specced to combo
Small tube headers
Full exhaust

car ran 12.70’s previously with X heads, much milder/ smaller cam in good air with 10 inch vert flashing low 3000’s rpm

he had a buddy install the eddies, and the new cam( its the same one i have run in both my 360 and current 418)

anyhow car is a dog out of the gate. Only ran marginally better than before. 1.85/1.90 60 foot.
Only ran 1/8 mile, in bad air went mid 7.90’s…not what i was expecting.
Cam sounds very sedate in his car, much smoother idle than in my 360 when i ran that cam.
Cam was installed with motor in car, and it has a Milidon gear drive on it.
My suspicion is the cam isn't in at 102, where its supposed to be, its retarded, bleeding off cylinder pressure, killing his bottom end, and making his 8 inch vert only flash at 3200
Called the guy who did the vert( does mine, trust him 100%) looked at his notes, and said the vert should be flashing way higher…..no kidding…lol… he looked at his notes and set it up how i had told him to..tight, around 5k

i suspect the cam is way, way off from where its supposed to be, and is the culprit.
With his relatively low compression, stock stroke, and this “ big “ cam everything needs to be right to bandaid it to all work together.
Thoughts?
 
Start with the basics..... compression test and leak down.

I ran a 263/267-108 in my old 340........the converter was supposed to be 5500, ended up at about 48-4900........ nowhere near loose enough.
I ran 5.13’s with 9 x 30 slicks........ it really would have been better with 5.38’s.
Shifting any lower than 73-7500 and the ET would drop right off.
 
B3422w5 said:
Little brother having issues with his car running as it should
Basic combo
Stock stroke 340, unsure of compression
Supposedly fully ported eddie heads( done years ago by Shady Dell…they went 10.90’s on a 408 he has in another car
260/264 565/565 lift solid cam..106 lsa, supposed to be installed per Howards at 102
Excellerator
950 pro systems
26 in drag radial
4.10 gear
8 inch convertor specced to combo
Small tube headers
Full exhaust

car ran 12.70’s previously with X heads, much milder/ smaller cam in good air with 10 inch vert flashing low 3000’s rpm

he had a buddy install the eddies, and the new cam( its the same one i have run in both my 360 and current 418)

anyhow car is a dog out of the gate. Only ran marginally better than before. 1.85/1.90 60 foot.
Only ran 1/8 mile, in bad air went mid 7.90’s…not what i was expecting.
Cam sounds very sedate in his car, much smoother idle than in my 360 when i ran that cam.
Cam was installed with motor in car, and it has a Milidon gear drive on it.
My suspicion is the cam isn't in at 102, where its supposed to be, its retarded, bleeding off cylinder pressure, killing his bottom end, and making his 8 inch vert only flash at 3200
Called the guy who did the vert( does mine, trust him 100%) looked at his notes, and said the vert should be flashing way higher…..no kidding…lol… he looked at his notes and set it up how i had told him to..tight, around 5k

i suspect the cam is way, way off from where its supposed to be, and is the culprit.
With his relatively low compression, stock stroke, and this “ big “ cam everything needs to be right to bandaid it to all work together.
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
What is the cranking cylinder pressures? WOT with all the spark plugs out.
The new cam may have poor valve timing events for low end torque.
Dont ask me how I know.
Can you post a copy of the cam card?
 
Last edited:
You SURE the buddy didn't swap in a milder cam?
 
@B3422w5 I think your thinking is sound. A long with Rusty’s different cam idea of it is as radical of a change as it sounds.

Double check and ask him if it is indeed the same cams and timing chain or if anything was switched/changed like the timing chain. A chain installed a tooth or two off in haste (or arrogance, kind of like - “I got this” while not actually paying attention…) could be the issue easy. If they didn’t degree the cam…. And we’re comfortable with it just being slid in, this could be the problem.
 
Look at the valves at overlap. You can tell if it’s straight up, advanced or retarded. You can’t tell how much, but you can see it.
 
I think you're on the right track, too. Buddy screwed up the install. Especially if it's a helical cut geardrive, he probably pulled it a tooth (or more) off on the install. If it's a straight cut gear, he's got no excuses. Buy him a degree wheel for Christmas.
 
RustyRatRod said:
You SURE the buddy didn't swap in a milder cam?
Click to expand...


I think its got the Howards cam in it.
Dont have the cam card, but its on a 106, supposed to go in at 102
296/299 advertized. 260/264@50 565 lift. Think he has 1.6’s on it though.
Its on Howards site.
 
I am at the track(131) for a test and tune, race tomorrow.
Think i refound the tree last weekend after a long layoff.
Find out here soon
Race tomorrow.

gonna go warm the car up, they open the lanes in a few minutes.
 
Ima thinking the power of that cam will be up around 5900, and the torque peak at maybe 4400,so I gotta ask; why the Excellerator?
I ran that thing on my 367 streeter (on the street) and thought it was a dog....... From what I remember about that intake, #75xx IIRC, the runners are small and the plenum really small.
The Rpm AirGap woke my combo right up, and she went 7.92@93 on it's only successfully completed run, of 4, with smoking 60ft s of 2.2 to 2.4. She ain't doggy down there, the tires just wouldn't catch. After the 4th run, with nothing broke, I was ready to drive it home about an hour away.
My cam is only a 230/237/110 Hughes, with lifts of .549/.571@1.6 ratio. Advertised durations are 276/286

Good luck !


Edit/BTW
4 degrees of retard on that cam is about 8 psi..... or less depending on the pressure when in at 102. I wanna say that this will not kill your stall from 5000 to 3200.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Ima thinking the power of that cam will be up around 5900, and the torque peak at maybe 4400,so I gotta ask; why the Excellerator?
I ran that thing on my 367 streeter (on the street) and thought it was a dog....... From what I remember about that intake, #75xx IIRC, the runners are small and the plenum really small.
The Rpm AirGap woke my combo right up, and she went 7.92@93 on it's only successfully completed run, of 4, with smoking 60ft s of 2.2 to 2.4. She ain't doggy down there, the tires just wouldn't catch. After the 4th run, with nothing broke, I was ready to drive it home about an hour away.
My cam is only a 230/237/110 Hughes, with lifts of .549/.571@1.6 ratio. Advertised durations are 276/286

Good luck !


Edit/BTW
4 degrees of retard on that cam is about 8 psi..... or less depending on the pressure when in at 102. I wanna say that this will not kill your stall from 5000 to 3200.
Click to expand...

...and got 49.3615 MPG on the way home. Uphill in the snow. With 165 MPH head winds. On 79 octane with no spark knock and 95.6 degrees total locked out timing. All while running 159 degrees and turnin 1200 RPM @ 90MPH.
 
RustyRatRod said:
...and got 49.3615 MPG on the way home. Uphill in the snow. With 165 MPH head winds. On 79 octane with no spark knock and 95.6 degrees total locked out timing. All while running 159 degrees and turnin 1200 RPM @ 90MPH.
Click to expand...
Like - Thanks - Agree!
 
rumblefish360 said:
@B3422w5 I think your thinking is sound. A long with Rusty’s different cam idea of it is as radical of a change as it sounds.

Double check and ask him if it is indeed the same cams and timing chain or if anything was switched/changed like the timing chain. A chain installed a tooth or two off in haste (or arrogance, kind of like - “I got this” while not actually paying attention…) could be the issue easy. If they didn’t degree the cam…. And we’re comfortable with it just being slid in, this could be the problem.
Click to expand...


Has a milidon gear drive on it, no chain
 
B3422w5 said:
Has a milidon gear drive on it, no chain
Click to expand...


Then it’s very easy to install it wrong. I don’t use gear drives on my stuff, but I have two friends that do. I have to degree their cams for them because they get it wrong. Every time.
 
It's interesting, the combo with that intake in the small tube headers..
I think the heads arent all that for this motor....and the cam is in 106 or 108, 100 is where I'd stick it.
 
Professor Fate said:
I think you're on the right track, too. Buddy screwed up the install. Especially if it's a helical cut geardrive, he probably pulled it a tooth (or more) off on the install. If it's a straight cut gear, he's got no excuses. Buy him a degree wheel for Christmas.
Click to expand...
Milodons are straight cut. and an easy degree as you dont have to take the chain off, you just pull the cog off the hub, line up the cam and rotate it to another set of holes. 7 allen bolts.
?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carid.com%2Fimages%2Fmilodon%2Fperformance-engine-parts%2F13600.jpg
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
It's interesting, the combo with that intake in the small tube headers..
I think the heads arent all that for this motor....and the cam is in 106 or 108, 100 is where I'd stick it.
Click to expand...

i have small tube headers( 1 5/8) and the excellerator on my 418.
I feel it runs exactly as it should.
That said, i plan to put 1 7/8 headers and a victor on it at some point.
I think its a very undervalued street strip single plane
 
pishta said:
Milodons are straight cut. and an easy degree as you dont have to take the chain off, you just pull the cog off the hub, line up the cam and rotate it to another set of holes. 7 allen bolts.
View attachment 1715780881
Click to expand...

I wonder if the guy had ever messed with such a setup, my spidey senses say..likely not.
Need to get a dial indicator and check the event timing, at least figure out if its wrong….and the culprit
 
B3422w5 said:
i have small tube headers( 1 5/8) and the excellerator on my 418.
I feel it runs exactly as it should.
That said, i plan to put 1 7/8 headers and a victor on it at some point.
I think its a very undervalued street strip single plane
Click to expand...
I agree it is a good manifold I have one myself. I played with spacers under 1/2 inch seems to work the best for my combos...but do you feel that xcellerator would 60ft like a dual plane ld340?
I've also run the small 1 5/8 headers on 410 sb and w/ 3"pipes ..then step headers. Pop the cork when you can, you'll be happy you did. Fine for a 340, a bit choking for a high revving 4" small block though.
Jegs mandrel bent was what I used, nice kit.
 
Keeping the compression up on a 340 with flat top pistons can be a challenge in itself with the cam that size I don't think you'd want your chambers any bigger than 55 to 60 cc and you mentioned ported heads that also are going to move the RPM range up .figure out what's going on with your camshaft but it seems like you have the parts to have a screamer if you get it dialed in jmo.
 
K.O. SWINGER said:
Keeping the compression up on a 340 with flat top pistons can be a challenge in itself with the cam that size I don't think you'd want your chambers any bigger than 55 to 60 cc and you mentioned ported heads that also are going to move the RPM range up .figure out what's going on with your camshaft but it seems like you have the parts to have a screamer if you get it dialed in jmo.
Click to expand...

its my brothers car,not mine. Its a yellow 71 Dart
 
RustyRatRod said:
...and got 49.3615 MPG on the way home. Uphill in the snow. With 165 MPH head winds. On 79 octane with no spark knock and 95.6 degrees total locked out timing. All while running 159 degrees and turnin 1200 RPM @ 90MPH.
Click to expand...
Some of you guys can't justify the GVod.
Some cannot understand 32mpgs with a 367.
Some of you just don't like me.
Ok I get that.
But do you really have to run yur mouths off at things you don't understand?
Just cuz you can't do what I do, doesn't mean it can't be done.
To repeat the story;
the day I tracked my car, I had 3.55s in the back, and the Commando A833, and as always, I was splitting gears. The first four road-gear ratios are;
10.97-8.55-6.82-5.32 The splits are .78-.80-.78
with 5.32s the math says she hits 93@6220.......
the powerband requirement of this combo, shifting at say 5800, would thus average ~1200rpm.
If you cannot see the value of 4 ratios to 93mph, which being two electric full-throttle shifts and one pull on the stick, and the engine sitting right at peak power for almost the entire Eighth; well, your insults are water off a duck's back.
There is a reason small engines have CVTs, and my GVod splitter works with my transmission almost the same way.
So, just cuz you guys can't make it happen,
doesn't mean it can't be done.

BTW to pull this trick with a regular A833 and say 5.38s; the road ratios would be;
14.31-10.33-7.53-5.38, the splits are .72-.73-.71, an average of say, .72- So again, shifting at 5800, the Rs will drop to 4180, so a powerband requirement of 1620.
Of course, that 14.31 is as good as useless ..... so, you would probably gear it for three gears in the Eighth.
Ok so to get 5.32 in third, you need about 3.73s in the back; so, the road-ratios are;
9.92-7.13-5.22-3.73, but ok, I'll give you the Commando low gear, and
11.53-----7.13-----5.22-----3.73 compared to my
..10.97-8.55-6.82-5.32----------------------2.77
BTW, my third gear is 4.97, for 93=5765; lemme put that in the line-up for you, with the rest of 'em;
..10.97-8.55-6.82-5.32/4.97-3.88/3.55-2.77
Hyup, 8 stinking usable ratios, that I use in several different ways.
But if you run a 4.10 like some guys do, then
12.67(Commando)-7.87-5.74-4.10; with 26.5s that makes for 93=4840 in Fourth/6770 in Third.
So there ya go, try to find the perfect rear end/tire/and cam combo, to use the regular A833, in the Eighth; good luck with that.
I hit the numbers with a smaller cam, because of the agreeable ratios on both ends, plus the 180psi CCP, plus; I only have to tug on the shifter but one time.
But you know,
I'm just a streeter,
so what do I know ........
Go ahead insult me some more;
it speaks directly to your character .....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top