Throwing my hands up on this ignition!

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I don’t need to ask him anything. I already know the answer. Amps wins. Every time. And the nonsense you posted about fuel engines is also wrong.
OK if that how it works remove your coil and just wire your plugs to a 12v battery with 4 gauge. Forget all that fancy **** like MSD and computerized engine and emission control, electronic transmission controls all of it, and I will continue to work on and run my electronic engine control system with 2 stage fuel, spark control, data logging I assembled from a well know supplier of self assembly kits, with its canbus, individual cylinder spark control and all that stuff like the programming files I have on my laptop. I'm out of here. You guys are the ones that wrote all the laws that the National Electric Code follow and did all the designing of the systems that make all the **** in the world do what it does, you built the complicated radar systems and satellite nav., gps, cell towers and radio stations.
 
I had a random ignition problem with my A100. would run great, then pop, bang, sputter, then take off and run good again. Sometimes would completely die, others miss or hard start. After trying many things, coils, points, pertonix, caps, wires, plugs fuel pump, filters. this went on a long time, didn't dare to take it far. I finally found it.The ring eye at the coil on the end of the wire from the distributor to the coil had white corrosion in it. It had a voltage drop across that wire. I replace the cheap crimp on eye ( with another cheap crimp on eye) and it runs perfect. Check every connection. google doing a circut voltage drop. good luck
 
Does anyone know the actual difference between PRIMARY CURRENT AND SECONDARY CURRENT? READ about the LAWS OF ELECTRICAL properties !

SNIPPED to shorten quote.....
I have an AS in electrical engineering and was a licensed electrician for 43 years and use to have to buy the NEC books. So I know about primary and secondary coil operation.

If you did not post 1 paragraph of 50+ lines most folk's may stop and read what you posted but 90% will just scan your running on post and not know.

If you cool your jets and read what I posted above about the gauge wire feeding the coil, it is about AMP's to the COIL PRIMARY. If you limit Amps to the primary you will get reduced Secondary voltage output.
True there are very little amperage at the secondary side, Milli-amps in fact.

You must use low voltage and high Amps to transform it to High Voltage but low Amps, and the other way around.

High tension power lines running overhead on those 300 foot steel towers is in the 1,000,000's of volts. It is stage 1 of primary that feeds sub stations. The sub stations use transformers to take those millions of volts and makes stage two primary in multi phase 17.5Kv, 7.2Kv..... Whatever is needed down the line.
And then in stage three, the transformer outside your house/shop takes that 17.5K VAC and makes the the 1 phase 240 V or 208, 480 3 phase. With the drop from Million VAC to Kv's and then to your secondary needs, the transformer provides more AMP's.

Again, you must use low voltage and high Amps to transform it to High Voltage but low Amps, and the other way around.

In telephone Central Offices they use 48 volts DC for everything inside except lights and test gear. The lines on the street uses that 48 Volts @ 600 Miliamps up to 30,000 feet at times so you have dial tone at the house/shop. When they go over 30,000 feet, somewhere near the center they add what is called a 'Load Pot' that has lots of load coils in it. When they put these load coils in, they up the line voltage to 54 Volts DC and the load coil boosts the output amperage up some. You may have 54 VDC incoming and 48-52 VDC outgoing....
 
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OK if that how it works remove your coil and just wire your plugs to a 12v battery with 4 gauge. Forget all that fancy **** like MSD and computerized engine and emission control, electronic transmission controls all of it, and I will continue to work on and run my electronic engine control system with 2 stage fuel, spark control, data logging I assembled from a well know supplier of self assembly kits, with its canbus, individual cylinder spark control and all that stuff like the programming files I have on my laptop. I'm out of here. You guys are the ones that wrote all the laws that the National Electric Code follow and did all the designing of the systems that make all the **** in the world do what it does, you built the complicated radar systems and satellite nav., gps, cell towers and radio stations.

You're missing that no one has said volts don't count in the equation too.
 
How many Kilo volts does it take to bridge a spark plug gap ? anyone ?
 
[QUOTE="Dave_J, post: 1973582620, member: 57782"..
In telephone Central Offices they use 48 volts DC for everything inside except lights and test gear. The lines on the street uses that 48 Volts @ 600 Miliamps up to 30,000 feet at times so you have dial tone at the house/shop. When they go over 30,000 feet, somewhere near the center they add what is called a 'Load Pot' that has lots of load coils in it. When they put these load coils in, they up the line voltage to 54 Volts DC and the load coil boosts the output amperage up some. You may have 54 VDC incoming and 48-52 VDC outgoing....[/QUOTE]
Ill gently add to this, the CO uses -48V DC (strange but that is what it is) even for certain test gear. Try finding an external power supply for that unicorn!
 
How many Kilo volts does it take to bridge a spark plug gap ? anyone ?
It depends on the plug gap and compression. You can see it on an oscilloscope. If you open the plug gaps it takes more voltage to ionize the air and create a spark.
 
How many Kilo volts does it take to bridge a spark plug gap ? anyone ?
Hmm sounds like a trick question....How big is the gap? It matters...Maybe 20KV to jump .040? Going back to the Jacobs ignition box that had spark plug resistance to spark feedback.
 
I was just wondering, I really don't know
 
I was just wondering, I really don't know
Off the top of my head, initiation can be anywhere from 10 K to 15KV, but sometimes higher.
Spark gap is a variable. Other variables are how well the fuel air mixture has been prepared and developed in the immediate location of the the spark plugs. Things like heat and compression play into that too.
Immediately after initiation, spark voltage drops dramatically. Most of the duration of the spark is at this lower voltage, usually called the spark line.
upload_2021-8-25_17-43-16-png.png


How much voltage is needed to initiate, and how much power (voltage x amps) is needed to keep the kernal of flame growing so the rest will burn well depends mostly on what is going on in the combustion chamber.
Shrinker summarizes flame development in depth here: Motorsports Village • View topic - Dyno time

Maybe post these questions about observing spark electric voltages and currents in Kit's thread about 'scopes.
Using a Scope for Diagnostics
 
Let me say this. Compression won't make a dam bit of difference where it comes to CDI, multi spark or any other method of getting a spark from the plugs ! When the compression is raised it requires a higher voltage to jump the gap, amps makes no difference. Big coils are mostly for show, with lot of surface for cooling, this is a waste IMO. We can see this by looking at an HEI coil. These buggers put out over 65kv without getting hot. Those huge ACCEL yellow coils only put out around 40kv but make a hotter spark with high amp current and make a lot of heat. I can prove that even under 12:1 comp, if your coil can put out 35kv and everything in the ING system is as it should be, then you have nothing to complain about. Of course if you are using a set of Champion Resistor plugs, you can usually trace it to those. Some people will swear by them, but not this guy. I have spent too many years dealing with pulling bad plugs and installing good plugs, most of them right out of the box and either back to the store or into the trash. There are 2 ways to raise the voltage output from any coil, first is with a CDI (MSD IS CDI)which does not increase the amps but increases the primary voltage to the coil. When using a CDI, you better have a coil that designed to work with CDI or you will fry that coil period ! The primary windings are not designed to withstand that high voltage and WILL short out internally which WILL take out your CDI unit if not for good, temporarily, in the case of having a resetting fuse inside. Instead of sending a nominal 12v in cases no ballast is used which with a CDI the only purpose would be to limit current supply to the box, and this makes very little sense since the current supply must be high to charge the Capacitor rapidly. With a CDI the primary voltage sent to the coil is increased to between 300 to 500 volts at a very low amperage. Opposite scenario is you are using a CDI coil without a CDI and the output will be excessively low and will make the engine run like carp, a very weak spark that will not fire the cylinders under load and or higher compression. The duration of the pulse is in milliseconds. This makes the coil cycle without saturating the magnetic field which does nothing but build heat inside of it. Old point systems only worked when the points opened and the magnetic field collapsed which would produce the high voltage. MSD type systems obviously build up and collapse the magnetic field multiple times in you guessed it milliseconds. The simpler way is to change the coil turn ratio inside. For more insight from someone that has been educated in electronics and had hands on experience with this, the first thing is to make sure you are getting a proper supply voltage to the control box. Then make sure your system is not loosing power or function on account of defective component that is suffering from heat related failure, such as a bad solder connection or even from solid state component problems which are common. It could even be a problem with something simple as a connection in the junction box or ignition switch. Old MOPARs are notorious for these. Now on to crappy running issues, if the primary voltage to the coil is too low you will still get a spark to the plug but under compression it will not be enough to fire the fuel which will make it run like ****, been there seen it and it was my fault for connecting the dual ballast incorrectly. Everything looked right but wasn't. It would pop and backfire and set the carb on fire, it would idle crappy and not rev but as low as I was increasing the throttle with a very rich fuel ratio it would act as if it wanted to run better but not best. The thing I found and had to deal with was the correct phasing of the rotor to the tower terminals, as the coil was firing for each cylinder the rotor was pulling away from the correct terminal causing the coil voltage to require exceeding the capability of the coil output max. This made the engine stutter and stumble under acceleration and power was pathetic. I ran a 383 with 13.5 compression ratio a dual point dist. and a stock electronic dist. with a stock control box parts store replacement and didn't have any problems getting a spark at the right time with enough to keep things happy. I also ran an 18 with a stock point dist. with a Napa aftermarket conversion that was wired into the stock electronic controller used in the mid 70's that used the dual ballast for electronic Vreg Alt and ignition. One can get into issues here also with the isolated field alternators MOPAR used. Which is how having the wrong primary supply to the IGN box happens which is what causes popping and backfires at idle and anywhere else unless the fuel is super rich. If things were happy with the previous motor and not happy with the replacement, take this to the bank, it's not because of higher compression! It because you messed up, or the system is not happy on account of account of a impending fault in the electronics part. I have seen coils that would work fine cold and crap out when hot, I have seen control boxes do same, I have seen wiring problems at connections, junction boxes and even inside harnesses where the wire had been crimped, bad connections inside harness splice blocks, damaged insulation that let moisture inside and the wire had corroded. The list is long. Be assured that any controller box made by any electronics firm has been required to pass a quality control program that includes a battery of tests to insure the circuit is a viable design and will perform under any condition to be found in the environment it was designed to work in. I have opened up stock type MOPAR chrome boxes and blue boxes and orange boxes, I have even been inside MSD controllers to repair the electronics. Once repaired they were resealed water tight, and put back into service. None of this is to say electronics don't fail, because they do! It's up to you to decide if the problem is something you caused or it was caused from a screw up or something else. Another thing I can pretty much count on is there is usually a protection device inside most every circuit that will stop the electricity in case of a short or overload, some automatically reset some don't. Lots of fuses are installed in fuse boxes for this purpose but you all know that already. The MSD has a fusible link inside it that will pop if a mistake is made in installation. At least they did years ago. Some electronic systems have polarity protection that will pop a fuse inside if connected backwards, some just don't work backwards and will be fine when corrected. Other are designed to work either way. Not usually the case with auto stuff though.
Well a couple of ways ign works. Kettering ign (read points or factory electronic trigger) have used reduced voltage running of about 9 volts. A resistor drops the running volts which is bypassed during starting. With the starter motor cranking the engine, battery voltage drops to around 9 volts. The coils are designed to run on that to get a good spark for starting. Then when the engine starts the ignition power goes back to through a resistor. Without this more voltage and current would go through the points and burn them fairly quickly. The electronic ign use transistors instead of points and depending on the design use the regulated voltage or battery voltage.
Basically either uses battery voltage and a fair current to charge the coil to create a high voltage low current spark. These sparks tend to be of a longer duration.
CDI ign systems use a very low current trigger to signal their electronics. Battery voltage is stepped up to 300V to 500V and stored in a capacitor. When the points or reluctor signal time to fire, that voltage is released to the coil with a higher current than the standard ign. The coil steps this up in voltage to higher voltage than a standard ign but lower current and duration.
For some engines the long duration works better while other engine parameters favor the hot short duration spark.
 
N
It depends on the plug gap and compression. You can see it on an oscilloscope. If you open the plug gaps it takes more voltage to ionize the air and create a spark.
Not according to some people on this post, it takes amps to do the jumping of the gap, it resulted in a big argument earlier where I was basically told I didn't know ****.
 
I don’t need to ask him anything. I already know the answer. Amps wins. Every time. And the nonsense you posted about fuel engines is also wrong.
Ohms law trumps you on this. Voltage, resistance and current are a balancing act. Change one has an affect on one or both of the others. Voltage is electrical pressure. Without it the other two mean nothing to us. Current is like the flow rate of water in a hose. Resistance slows the flow of electrons which can be useful or a pain in the butt when it gets in a place we need the current.
In a normally runnig street engine the ign voltage may be able to jump the spark plug gap as low as 10kv. Under high load that may go up to 35kv or more if the coil.is capable. Wider plug gaps delay the spark and push the required voltage higher. Supercharged engines need either higher spark voltage or less plug gap, and possibly both.
 
N

Not according to some people on this post, it takes amps to do the jumping of the gap, it resulted in a big argument earlier where I was basically told I didn't know ****.
It takes volts to initially ionize the air/fuel mixture in the plug gap. After that very short high voltage, the ionized mixture conducts the electrons better, so that is when the current and spark duration come into play to get the burn happening reliably.
 
N

Not according to some people on this post, it takes amps to do the jumping of the gap, it resulted in a big argument earlier where I was basically told I didn't know ****.

I think it was them miss understanding what you said and you miss understanding what they said.

I never said you don't know SHITE. I read all the way thru those posts and you are right. I also think they were right. If you read what was posted and not read in to it.

You need high Amperage to the Primary side of the coil, the more amps it can draw the more secondary voltage can be. Even if you feed the coil 9 volts DC with a 2 gauge wire, it will only draw so many amps and no more. But you can shoot your self in the foot by having corroded connectors, too small wires or a low voltage source.(Voltage drops)

So using my post about using 22 gauge wire VS using 14 gauge wire both at 9 V DC, which one will have a hotter spark? This is all about Amperage since the volts are the same.
 
I have seen people that used 22 gauge telephone wire to run trailer lights. Green wire for ground, Red wire for right turn, Yellow for left turn and black for stop.

The lights were dim, real dim. I did not know what wires they were using till later.

I put a VOM on and there was 12.5 volts. I then put the Amp meter on and found almost no amps are getting back there. ???

Ran 2 each 12 gauges wires and POOF, bright stop lights. DUH!
 
N

Not according to some people on this post, it takes amps to do the jumping of the gap, it resulted in a big argument earlier where I was basically told I didn't know ****.

I never said anything of the sort, so be specific. All I said was it takes AMPS to get it done and that's a fact. It's a stupid bullshit argument, because it takes BOTH. You seemed to be under the completely wrong impression that only volts are involved.
 
I never said anything of the sort, so be specific. All I said was it takes AMPS to get it done and that's a fact. It's a stupid bullshit argument, because it takes BOTH. You seemed to be under the completely wrong impression that only volts are involved.
Rob where he is getting what you said wrong is, he is thinking you said you need AMP's at the secondary side of the coil.

I understood that you mean you need AMP's on the Primary side.

You can put 1,000 amps to a spark plug but if the voltage is too low it will not spark.
But up that volts to around 20,000 volts and that spark plug will melt into a puddle.
 
Rob where he is getting what you said wrong is, he is thinking you said you need AMP's at the secondary side of the coil.

I understood that you mean you need AMP's on the Primary side.

Well "I was figgerin" SOME things could go unsaid. I reckon I was wrong. lol
 
Lots of misinformation here....
- HEI coils don't get hot but the big Accel yellow coils get hot because they put out a big spark. [ someone said in an earlier post ] HEI coils run cooler because the module has variable dwell; dwell [ current on-time ] is reduced at lower rpms because it is simply not needed to saturate the coil. Therefore the coil runs cooler. The Accel coil gets hot because they were used primarily with points & had a lot of dwell time [ current flowing ], which causes them to run hotter. The temp of the coil is not a guide to it's performance. In fact, the HEI E core type coils deliver more primary energy than canister type coils because [a] the pri resistance is lower & therefore more current flows & the E core is faaaaar more efficient at transferring energy from the pri side of the coil to the sec side. Hence, their widespread use today.
- Not all MSD boxes are CD. The MSD 5 box is inductive ign.
- A CD spark is hotter & has a higher energy content than an inductive spark. Where the CD spark lacks is in spark duration: 1/10-1/4 as long in time compared to inductive; & sometimes this is not long enough to ignite a low speed contaminated mixtures [ it needs a long duration spark ]. Result is misfire. MSD found this when developing their CD igns. So some bright spark [ pardon the pun ] at MSD said; 'We will make it multi spark'! So an engineering failure was turned into success with marketing hype.
- It is the heat in the spark that causes ign. The voltage is merely the enabler: voltage needs to be high enough for air to be ionised [ made conductive ] & current to flow across the gap. In electrical engineering, the heating effect is related to DC current flow.
- As Phil Jacobs of Jacobs ign said, you never want to trade current for voltage. Yet 60,000 volts in the coil advertisement sounds more impressive than 0.3 amp, so guess which coil the mugs buy???
- The amount of voltage to ionise the gap depends on many factors. A test done by Circle Track in Aug 94 on a 9:1 engine fired a 0.050" plug gap with 28kv. A NA engine, even with large plug gaps, is unlikely to ever need more than 35kv, so a 40kv coil gives a nice reserve cushion. Going higher on voltage just trades current for voltage, a bad move because it is the heat in the current that ignites the mixture. More current=more heat.
- Ign coils are full of compromises. Example: more primary inductance is good because it transfers more energy to the secondary side of the coil, to be delivered as a spark. But more pri ind also takes more time to saturate, so that at some rpm point, it will not reach max current to transfer to the sec.
- GMs HEI levelled the playing field in ign systems, bridging the gap to CD.
 
I’ve had issues w MSD boxes too. found by removing the distributor and spinning it by hand, it would spark when spun fast, but not when spun slow.
And spark everytime the white wire was tapped on ground.
I replaced the pickup w a new one and gapped it close.
Spinning dizzy w a drill and measuring AC voltage output, I got about 4.5v
New pickup, it measured 7v
So far, good.
 
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I think it was them miss understanding what you said and you miss understanding what they said.

I never said you don't know SHITE. I read all the way thru those posts and you are right. I also think they were right. If you read what was posted and not read in to it.

You need high Amperage to the Primary side of the coil, the more amps it can draw the more secondary voltage can be. Even if you feed the coil 9 volts DC with a 2 gauge wire, it will only draw so many amps and no more. But you can shoot your self in the foot by having corroded connectors, too small wires or a low voltage source.(Voltage drops)

So using my post about using 22 gauge wire VS using 14 gauge wire both at 9 V DC, which one will have a hotter spark? This is all about Amperage since the volts are the same.
Regarding 22ga vs 14ga primary wiring; other than 22ga is pretty small, the main resistance in the primary after the ballast resister is the coil primary windings. Once the ballast reduces primary voltage, the coil limits current flow with the points closed. Now if you install a lower resistance coil, the after ballast voltage will be reduced as the coil is allowing more current flow. Conversely a higher resistance coil will slow electron flow and allow the voltage between the ballast and coil to rise slightly.
The circuit starts at running battery/alternator voltage. Any resistance anywhere in a circuit causes a voltage drop. Those voltage drops if measured will add up to battery voltage. The flowing current current remains constant until an outside resistance is added in, in the form of a poor or non weather protected connection, a hole in the wire insulation from probing with a test light, a wire that is breaking from vibration, etc. When dealing with mechanical equipement and the electrical and electronic components that enable its operation, if ANYTHING can go wrong, it most likely will eventually. I use an expression: NEVER SAY NEVER, because that is about the time your *** is about to be bitten.
 
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