A833 buying tips?

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Righty Tighty

Righty Tighty

Blame it on the dog
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Good morning, FABO!

I'm looking to swap in a 4 speed for my 727 in the 74 Barracuda 440. I found a (mostly) complete setup that includes transmission, big block bell housing, shifter with rods, flywheel, scatter shield, hardware, and few odds & ends. No clutch, pedals, or z-bar that I can see. I've contacted Brewer's Performance, and they've advised of the changes I'd need to make it work on my car (mainly a different tail shaft housing), so I should be good to go in that regard.

Here are my questions: what should I look at specifically when inspecting the transmission? I have heard of folks removing the side cover, but what am I looking at/for? How should it feel when I spin the input shaft? What are some red flags that would make you not want to buy the transmission? The seller says he pulled it out of a 63 Savoy and posted pictures of the car, which is very nice. I'm going to ask why he pulled it out, next time we talk. He seems very open and is providing any pictures I ask for.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
Not an expert here but, Id want to check that everything turns freely, in all gears, so first turn the input shaft in neutral, then output shaft, then go to the side and work the levers into each gear and spin it.. after that damage to the case and missing parts, chunks of metal missing around the tail shaft seal etc. same for the bearing retainer, make sure the retainer is there, and not missing broken...after that you wont know till its in the car, (from experience, mine wouldn't shift into third easily, turned out to be broken dogs on the synchro) you may want to plan on going into it before installing in the car, either way they are fairly quick to get back out of the car if there is an issue...
 
Thanks! All of that sounds pretty simple. The plan is to freshen up the seals and gaskets before putting it in service, so I’ll have it apart at some point anyway.
 
Reviewing the FSM and researching the history of the trans might be helpful........
upload_2021-9-28_11-10-16.png

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Chrysler A-833 Transmissions: How to Rebuild and Modify (Workbench How-to): Passon, Jamie: 9781613253243: Amazon.com: Books
 
Dartswinger70 said:
Not an expert here but, Id want to check that everything turns freely, in all gears, so first turn the input shaft in neutral, then output shaft, then go to the side and work the levers into each gear and spin it.. after that damage to the case and missing parts, chunks of metal missing around the tail shaft seal etc. same for the bearing retainer, make sure the retainer is there, and not missing broken...after that you wont know till its in the car, (from experience, mine wouldn't shift into third easily, turned out to be broken dogs on the synchro) you may want to plan on going into it before installing in the car, either way they are fairly quick to get back out of the car if there is an issue...
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You want to look for:

-water damage/signs of excessive heat
-chipped/damaged teeth on the speed gears/cluster gear
-leaks at the counter shaft where it locates in the case
-mashed/damaged sychro teeth
-inspect the casting(s) very closely near the mounting flanges (bellhousing, -crosmember mount)
-bad noises when rotating it by hand in/out of gear and reverse
-damage to the splines on input or output shaft
-bent input shaft/broken or cracked bearing retainer
 
If it turns fairly easy and looks clean inside with no cracks or damage on the case then it's probably all you can do when you go look at it. Unfortunately, there's a chance it grinds, falls out of gear, whines, etc once you get it running. After building a nice 4 speed last winter, I probably wouldn't install another without going thru it. They're pretty simple, especially if you have a press.
 
I guess you all are pulling the side cover when buying a 4 speed? What if I'm the seller and I say " no" to opening the side cover...?
 
80fbody said:
If it turns fairly easy and looks clean inside with no cracks or damage on the case then it's probably all you can do when you go look at it. Unfortunately, there's a chance it grinds, falls out of gear, whines, etc once you get it running. After building a nice 4 speed last winter, I probably wouldn't install another without going thru it. They're pretty simple, especially if you have a press.
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^this exactly.

I bought a used 833 from a wrecked dart. It looked great inside and out, very clean and exactly what it was advertised as. I pulled the side cover, all the gears were consistent in color - no blue (which would indicate heat or lack of lube). It felt smooth, engaged all gears, etc.
Once installed, it worked, but the second gear synchro would very slightly grind on downshift each time, and often during a full throttle upshift. Would still shift though. Then came a horrible noise that got progressively worse over about 30 miles. The input shaft bearing was toast.

For about $200, I rebuilt it at home with new synchros, gaskets, seals, bearings, pretty much everything. Got all the parts from brewers, including their trans rebuild lube/grease. It was super simple and took all of about 4 hours. The hardest part was removing the reverse gear, for which I made a contraption from allthread and some pipe and washers (search around and you'll find some pictures of such a contraption - it's commonly suggested for anyone taking the trans apart). Cost about $20 and took less than 5 mins to get the gear out from what I remember.
The hardest parts are the cluster shaft roller bearings - which really aren't that hard, and the rear bearing snap ring which can be fiddly to remove and install properly.

So long as the gears show no signs of rust, pitting, chipping, heat, or other issues I'd grab it and plan to put new bearings in while it's out of the car - installing the trans into the car is by far the hardest part of the whole job!
 
Dartswinger70 said:
I guess you all are pulling the side cover when buying a 4 speed? What if I'm the seller and I say " no" to opening the side cover...?
Click to expand...

I'd only take it if everything felt smooth, no other signs of issues, and I'd still pull the speedo sender to ensure it wasn't full of water at some point.
I'd also only make the deal if it was cheap, knowing that it probably needs bearings/synchros at a minimum.
If a seller wants top dollar, they'll show the buyer whatever the buyer wants to see.
 
80fbody said:
If it turns fairly easy and looks clean inside with no cracks or damage on the case then it's probably all you can do when you go look at it. Unfortunately, there's a chance it grinds, falls out of gear, whines, etc once you get it running. After building a nice 4 speed last winter, I probably wouldn't install another without going thru it. They're pretty simple, especially if you have a press.
Click to expand...

I do have a press, thank goodness. I like that folks are saying how simple the 833s are. I pulled apart my 904 a couple years ago, and it really wasn't as complicated as I thought it would be. I'm guessing the 833 is simpler.

Phreakish said:
^this exactly.

I bought a used 833 from a wrecked dart. It looked great inside and out, very clean and exactly what it was advertised as. I pulled the side cover, all the gears were consistent in color - no blue (which would indicate heat or lack of lube). It felt smooth, engaged all gears, etc.
Once installed, it worked, but the second gear synchro would very slightly grind on downshift each time, and often during a full throttle upshift. Would still shift though. Then came a horrible noise that got progressively worse over about 30 miles. The input shaft bearing was toast.

For about $200, I rebuilt it at home with new synchros, gaskets, seals, bearings, pretty much everything. Got all the parts from brewers, including their trans rebuild lube/grease. It was super simple and took all of about 4 hours. The hardest part was removing the reverse gear, for which I made a contraption from allthread and some pipe and washers (search around and you'll find some pictures of such a contraption - it's commonly suggested for anyone taking the trans apart). Cost about $20 and took less than 5 mins to get the gear out from what I remember.
The hardest parts are the cluster shaft roller bearings - which really aren't that hard, and the rear bearing snap ring which can be fiddly to remove and install properly.

So long as the gears show no signs of rust, pitting, chipping, heat, or other issues I'd grab it and plan to put new bearings in while it's out of the car - installing the trans into the car is by far the hardest part of the whole job!
Click to expand...

This is great news! We'll see how this one looks.

Regarding the rear bearing snap ring -- is it the same or similar to the Torqueflite snap ring? I'm familiar with that one.
 
Righty Tighty said:
I do have a press, thank goodness. I like that folks are saying how simple the 833s are. I pulled apart my 904 a couple years ago, and it really wasn't as complicated as I thought it would be. I'm guessing the 833 is simpler.
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I did my 904 first too - the 833 is far simpler, just because it's like having no valve body to deal with, and fewer rings/seals.

Righty Tighty said:
This is great news! We'll see how this one looks.

Regarding the rear bearing snap ring -- is it the same or similar to the Torqueflite snap ring? I'm familiar with that one.
Click to expand...

Similar, yes. Gotta make sure it seats back in after the new bearing is in. My buddy bought a 'brand new' 833, and it had weird issues. Turned out that ring wasn't seated, and on the 2nd gear shift it would shove the whole gearset rearward and grind on things. Took us a few hours of polishing the ring on a piece of glass with 600 grit until we got it seated with no play.
 
Phreakish said:
I did my 904 first too - the 833 is far simpler, just because it's like having no valve body to deal with, and fewer rings/seals.



Similar, yes. Gotta make sure it seats back in after the new bearing is in. My buddy bought a 'brand new' 833, and it had weird issues. Turned out that ring wasn't seated, and on the 2nd gear shift it would shove the whole gearset rearward and grind on things. Took us a few hours of polishing the ring on a piece of glass with 600 grit until we got it seated with no play.
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Makes me wonder why more people don’t make the switch to manual.
 
Righty Tighty said:
Makes me wonder why more people don’t make the switch to manual.
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Not everyone wants one. Plus, an automatic is more forgiving as the gears and cams get bigger. Dialing in a 4spd is an entirely different task, and takes a lot of know how. There's no torque converter stall to change, the direct connection means that if your gear change drops just a feels hundred revs too many, you feel like you're climbing out of a hole to get back into the power..

But at the same time, nothing beats rowing through the gears. I just wish second gear in most 833s was a little taller. The jump to third is bigger, and feels like it brings the party to a halt a little too quick. But that's just me..
 
Well, I feel pretty good about this.

The guy I bought this from had me meet him at his brother's house, where the parts were. We chatted for a second at my truck and he asked what the transmission was going into, and when I told him a '74 Barracuda, he invited me back. He told me his brother had a '70 Cuda with a Hemi in the backyard. What?? We go in the backyard and there's a gorgeous 1970 Cuda restoration project on a 2 post lift, behind "something" under a car cover, and both are next to a long enclosed trailer. I completely forgot why I was there.

We talk about the Cuda and a bit about cars, and I think he wanted me to stop drooling on his car. So he pulled the cover off the other one, and it's a '64 Dart drag car. Both are currently rollers, but absolutely gorgeous. After the 1-2 punch, he goes in for the knockout and opens up the trailer. Inside is a '69 Roadrunner drag car. He said the car is all steel, except for the fiberglass hood, and runs in the 9s.

I try to keep my composure and stay focused on the transmission, and both guys are super helpful in giving me tips on installation, etc. I ended up with the transmission, bell housing, shifter and linkage, z-bar, clutch/pressure plate, fork, shifter boot, flywheel, and hardware.

**photos with permission of the owner** (he really wanted me to get a pic of the front)
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Save up, cut through all the bullshit overpriced used CRAP people want an arm and a leg for and buy a reman from Brewers. One and done, warranty and all. That's what I'm going to do.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Save up, cut through all the bullshit overpriced used CRAP people want an arm and a leg for and buy a reman from Brewers. One and done, warranty and all. That's what I'm going to do.
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Well crap, Rusty. I already bought it!
 
The hardest part of the rebuild is usually the needle bearings. I learned that you just use a liberal amount of automatic assembly grease to push/hold them in place. Works great. Only thing you really can't do at home is "bush" the case for the countershaft. If it's not "wallowed" out I'd run it. If it is, I'm sure one of the pros here could "bush" the case for you or Brewers of course.
 
Phreakish said:
I'd only take it if everything felt smooth, no other signs of issues, and I'd still pull the speedo sender to ensure it wasn't full of water at some point.
I'd also only make the deal if it was cheap, knowing that it probably needs bearings/synchros at a minimum.
If a seller wants top dollar, they'll show the buyer whatever the buyer wants to see.
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yeah but you are taking the sellers **** apart, and you may not buy it... if you know how to feel it out youll know if parts are missing no need to pull side cover. you should feel the grinding.
 
Dartswinger70 said:
yeah but you are taking the sellers **** apart, and you may not buy it... if you know how to feel it out youll know if parts are missing no need to pull side cover. you should feel the grinding.
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The worn out, chipping, shot-to-**** front bearing in mine felt perfectly smooth by hand. Only once the bearing was off the shaft could I feel how gritty the race was.
Chipped teeth on the gears can feel perfectly smooth too. Happens all the time with rings and pinions.
A groove worn into the countershaft would be impossible to 'feel', same with excess end-clearance of the cluster.
Synchros are impossible to gauge by feel alone. My bad 2nd gear synchro would still 'stop' the gear mid-shift when checking by hand, yet in the car it would give just a bit of a grind like I said before.

Removing the side cover is such a non-issue that if a seller won't take it off it's a big red flag in my opinion, and immediately makes it a 'core' IMO (assuming no invoices for a recent rebuild by a reputable shop, with photos of the internals).
 
Phreakish said:
The worn out, chipping, shot-to-**** front bearing in mine felt perfectly smooth by hand. Only once the bearing was off the shaft could I feel how gritty the race was.
Chipped teeth on the gears can feel perfectly smooth too. Happens all the time with rings and pinions.
A groove worn into the countershaft would be impossible to 'feel', same with excess end-clearance of the cluster.
Synchros are impossible to gauge by feel alone. My bad 2nd gear synchro would still 'stop' the gear mid-shift when checking by hand, yet in the car it would give just a bit of a grind like I said before.

Removing the side cover is such a non-issue that if a seller won't take it off it's a big red flag in my opinion, and immediately makes it a 'core' IMO (assuming no invoices for a recent rebuild by a reputable shop, with photos of the internals).
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You are entitled to your opinion...if I am selling i am definitely allowed to say "don't open the side cover" this is tire kicking you are going to assess the internals than attempt too lowball the seller. You are assuming everyone is out to rip you off on a 50 year old transmission. hell most Mopar guys will tell you the 833 is bullet proof LOL!
 
Dartswinger70 said:
You are entitled to your opinion...if I am selling i am definitely allowed to say "don't open the side cover" this is tire kicking you are going to assess the internals than attempt too lowball the seller. You are assuming everyone is out to rip you off on a 50 year old transmission. hell most Mopar guys will tell you the 833 is bullet proof LOL!
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Every used transmission I've bought has been "Perfect condition". Every used transmission I've bought has needed a rebuild.
If the seller won't let me figure out how much I'll need to spend to get it to match his description, then he can keep it or lower his price - because it's a only a core until proven otherwise.
 
I get where you are coming from. In this situation there are two possibilities,it is either a professionally rebuilt unit or a used transmission,a "core" as you say. I could see pulling a side cover in one situation,the unit is pro rebuilt selling for top dollar,and the buyer wants to verify it has all new internals. All others should be assumed they may need work.
 
Does the trans you bought have the ball n trunion flange on the rear of the trans, if out of a 63?
 
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