Drivers/Racers - 4 Speed Driving Lesson Required

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69cudaownr

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Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
I can best describe my driving habits as "mild" when it comes to driving with a manual transmission. I'm shifting at 2500 rpm usually and my ear is trained to that rpm for shifting.
Some background, I've spent some significant time improving the performance of my 318 (.030 over) by adding a Edelbrock 600 4bbl, Edelbrock Performer intake ported to 308 heads milled at 58 cc, a mild Comp Cam and headers. Finishes with a 3:23 suregrip. My uneducated guess is 320 horsepower. Never has it been on a dyno.

1st driving lesson needed Burnout - I've never done a brake stand with a manual. Automatic is easy. Do I just rev it and drop the clutch in 1st gear? If so, what kind of rpm am I starting at?

2nd driving lesson needed Speed - Is there an optimal shifting rpm to get the most speed out of this ? As I said earlier my trained ear hears a screaming engine after 2500 rpm and I want to shift but then I read of max HP at 4000 and 4500 rpm ranges.

Any advice from drivers is helpful.
 
Good morning, since you are using a smaller displacement engine with a short 3.31" stroke in conjunction with 360 (308) heads, it is going to need a bit of rpm to make its power. Of course this is dependent on camshaft profile also. With the upgraded intake and cam, I would guess a good starting shift point would be 5000-5500rpm. Even a stock 318 should easily pull those rpms with little difficulty. Again, this is going on the limited info provided. Perhaps you could share more info on vehicle, gear ratio, and intended usage.
 
It's all by feel and experience, everyone drives different. Get out there and drive.
 
1st driving lesson needed Burnout - I've never done a brake stand with a manual

Heel/toe brake/throttle ...some use heel on brake some use toe..whatever it takes to get that brake set and get the revs above 3500...higher is good as you want to drop the clutch and not slip it causing a nice burnt clutch. I feel that 2nd gear burnouts get more of a smoke show but start out getting the technique in 1st. I use a 'roll control' that connects to a button and simplifies the situation, locking the front brakes and not having to get the clumbsy size 12s to stumble around on the pedals. Congrats! love a muscle car with stick.

If not wanting to do the whole heel toe thing at first....rev her up and dump the clutch. you'll get it.
 
As far as doing a burnout you want to engage the clutch in the around your maximum torque, so for instance bring your motor up to 25 00 RPMs or so maybe a little more release the clutch quickly quickly! enough to break the tires free then accelerate into the spinning tires. As your motor RPMs rise be ready to quickly shift into your next gear. Note that this is one of the hardest things on your drivetrain and parts need to be in good working order or you will find out very quickly which ones aren't. Warning if your clutch isn't strong enough to put up with this kind of task it will slip and you will quickly need a new clutch. You want the tires spinning on the pavement not the clutch spinning on the flywheel.
 
I have never brake standed a manual you just tach it up let the clutch out and floor the gas some more, key thing is knowing when to get out of it, don't floor it till you are sideways into your neighbors yard and mailbox...:) getting out of it is letting off the gas and stepping on the clutch. if you want to use braking,install a front brake line lock.
 
You gave the gears but the tire size the tire compound what kind of tire and the exact cam specs could help. They're probably was a RPM range that the cam manufacturer advertised?...
Every car is going to be different on doing a burn off for sure. Mine I rev it up about 3 Grand or so, dump the clutch, and touch on the break to get it to stand there and really try and blow the tires off... And of course after you dump the clutch you give it even more gas...
And of course you take a video of it and post it here so we can all cheer you on LOL...
 
Your cam specs should give you some indication of what RPM point your engine is making it's peak horsepower and torque, that and the intake manifolds range. Keeping in mind that those are under optimal conditions. I have to agree with cpearce, you should be fine running 5000 to 5500 RPM, and I would expect that the peak horsepower would be right in this area. That should be a starting point for question 2.
Question 1 is subject to a few variables, namely traction, however I have not mastered the manual transmission burnout myself, tough to perfect when your shoes are size 15 and most of the stick shift cars I have owned were fox body Mustangs, footwells are a little bit cramped in them. I would usually sidestep the clutch around 4000 RPM and let it rip. If you are doing burnouts on a dragstrip you may want to look at installing a line lock in your brake system.
 
parking lot to start? It can be quite a spectacle though. I know when I hear a burnout happening...from a ways off. A cop does too. Just so happens you could get one that isnt having a great day and is looking to call a tow truck to give a reckless ticket.....which around here is a felony now. Just sayin, dont stick around after brah.
 
I always wanna let er rip in my fox body in front of my house,abut I figure Ill pizz off the neighbors...
 
parking lot to start? It can be quite a spectacle though. I know when I hear a burnout happening...from a ways off. A cop does too. Just so happens you could get one that isnt having a great day and is looking to call a tow truck to give a reckless ticket.....which around here is a felony now. Just sayin, dont stick around after brah.
Yes this is an excellent point gone are the days of a cop saying knock it off as you and your buddy chuckle and drive away are gone. At least that's a chance that you may not want to take. But if you are at least in a controlled area where there's no real possible chance of you hitting something or someone that's a much better scenario. After I got my 340 rebuilt very hot and it was very strong I had a new set of back high performance 265 tires on the back, I decided to show off to the locals, blasting through first and second gear walking at sideways when the tires quickly hooked shooting me across the lane I regain control with a series of fish tales but I damn near stacked up my car. And trust me I had burned out hundreds of times.
 
My first muscle car needed a clutch. I did a clutch and the guy that sold me the T5 (and helped me swap it in) asked me if point blank "Do you mind if I beat on your car?" .....I learned very quickly watching from the passenger seat how to do a burnout/launch a car. I just visited that guy last week three hours away. Dunno if Id do that again, but if you know a guy that has some experience in said 'dark art' (ha ha)....then let the smoke arise child.....(not sayin yer young...that last part was for effects only)
 
Be aware that if you have "less than optimum" rear gear, and "lots of tire" and maybe the clutch isn't the best, you can fry the heck out of a clutch with all this. I am not "big" on burnouts.

If you don't have a limited slip (sure grip in Mopar parlance) rear axle, it is AWFULLY hard on spider gears

 
its good to learn from others mistakes......but I always think twice before uploading my filmed f##kups. I mean it IS entertaining, and informative of what not to do! I have enough trouble in my head to not re-live those moments and groan to myself much less displaying them for the world.
 
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Baby steps. Keep working up the RPM range by 500 RPM’s starting at 2,000 and see where it break loose. As said before, each car is different. Doing heal/toe can be hard as the gas / brake peddle are rather far a part in most of our old Junk. I’m adjusting that this winter. Peddle box is coming out for some mods. “Line Locks” or roll control are good.

As for shifting in a drag race at a drag strip, once you launch, hold your foot to the floor, don’t lift, and has fast as you can hit the clutch and shift. Takes practice. You can do this at lower RPM’s also.

In my 72 Duater with a hot 340, 3.91’s and sticky tires, for a burnout I rev to about 3500/4000 and sidestep the clutch, floor the gas and bounce the rev limiter that’s set at 6 grand. If I’m just messing around, I’ll hold the gas mashed and speed shift as noted. As for a non spinning launch, I’m at about 2800-3000 for that then mash the gas.
 
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Also, once revved to 3200-3500, dump clutch with no brake, get her spinning, stay in her for a sec then feathering the gas is a good way to practice getting it to hook if ever in the situation of hitting say 2nd or 3rd and she starts to spin. This letting off the gas a little lets the tires stop spinning for a fraction and straightens the car out, but get right back into it, dont wait. again, not to be done on narrow streets or around ditches.....unless its a mustang.:rofl:...just kidding, mustang drivers are people too. :lol:....hell, Heidi has a mustang project.:)
 
Be aware that if you have "less than optimum" rear gear, and "lots of tire" and maybe the clutch isn't the best, you can fry the heck out of a clutch with all this. I am not "big" on burnouts.

If you don't have a limited slip (sure grip in Mopar parlance) rear axle, it is AWFULLY hard on spider gears


Wonder if he had the parking brake on? Never saw the back tires move. He probably set the braked when he parked it and forgot to take it off .
 
Your cam specs should give you some indication of what RPM point your engine is making it's peak horsepower and torque, that and the intake manifolds range. Keeping in mind that those are under optimal conditions. I have to agree with cpearce, you should be fine running 5000 to 5500 RPM, and I would expect that the peak horsepower would be right in this area. That should be a starting point for question 2.
Question 1 is subject to a few variables, namely traction, however I have not mastered the manual transmission burnout myself, tough to perfect when your shoes are size 15 and most of the stick shift cars I have owned were fox body Mustangs, footwells are a little bit cramped in them. I would usually sidestep the clutch around 4000 RPM and let it rip. If you are doing burnouts on a dragstrip you may want to look at installing a line lock in your brake system.
Took some rummaging but found my Comp Cam bill. Its a XE262H which has 262/270 duration and a 462/470 lift. The specs have an operating rpm range of 1300-5600.
Tires are 275/40/17 Firehawks.
 
>Some quick math says that your Scr (Static compression ratio) is possibly as high as 9/1
>Wiki says Waterloo is at 329Meters/~1100ft elevation.
>A bit of a cam to me has an Ica of ~64degrees. And to make 320 honest Crank hp, your 318 would need all of that plus more pressure.
>Using those numbers, the Wallace calculator predicts a cranking cylinder pressure of just about 137psi.
> 3.23s are a great gear for; ........ for a multi-purpose car, or a car with a bigger engine. But lousy for performance in a low-compression 318, and especially for to do burnouts with, without a Line-Loc/Roll-Control.
>If that pressure prediction of 137psi is close, I suggest you do a compression test, before you do anything more. In a manual-trans application, the less pressure you have, the harder it will be to develop a technique, and with a low pressure reading, you will just end up being very frustrated.
Until then and until you get your Line-Loc installed; I suggest that you forget about doing burnouts, ...... unless you got skinny 235s or something.
> In any case, I've been driving the A833, on the street, almost continuously since 1970, and I have never learned no heel and toe. So either I am an un-coordinated sob, or it takes a boat-load of practice. Besides, without a Line-Loc, your engine will be fighting the rear brakes . Your engine, if 137psi is close, does not have any extra low-rpm power for that.
With the lack of pressure, and no Roll-Control;
you will have to abuse your combo with rpm, to shock the tires/suspension to get slippage started, and then immediately get on the gas to keep the secondaries open, while simultaneously scrambling to adjust the brake pedal to keep the engine from stalling or to keep the car from skating unpredictably (with the front brakes locked and skating, you cannot steer). That's a lot to learn in a very very short period of time; and EVERY time you try it, circumstances will be different, so your brain will have to adapt........ constantly. I suggest also to install a mechanical-Secondary carb, it will make control so much easier.
===============
Here's how I do it, with 3.55s and 295/50-15s/235s on the front :
>I set the Line-loc with a toggle switch, so I can set it and forget it.
> I rev the engine up to, IDK in the range of 1800 to 2000, and start feeding in the clutch, while maintaining the rpm. If the road surface is particularly good it might take 2500 to bust them loose.
> Then, once the tires are rotating, and the clutch pedal is up, I idle the engine down to just above stalling, and let the tires howl for a while, sorta like I hear "coon-dogs" baying on the telly. Passengers and spectators alike, seem to find this very entertaining; as do I lol.
>As the tires heat up, they start to drag the engine down, so I give her a lil more gas-pedal
> then when the tires are ready, as shown by the smoke pealing off, I rev her up to IDK maybe 3500 and stuff it into second. Then I just keep her there, sometimes playing with the throttle, while the guys in the back seat are rolling with laughter.
> after a bit, I might release the line-loc, idle down a bit, and start doing Figure-Eights or Donuts. After the guys are ready to puke, I'll do one of three things;
1) straighten out and slam the go-pedal to 65mph, then slam the whoa pedal. or
2) I have been known to do huge full-lock 360s around buildings and such, and have the tickets to prove it. or
3) if one of the guys can't keep his stomach down, I might have to stop. But if I see a speed-bump, I'm hitting that first. Everybody gets a puke-sac when they get in.

In my rig, 65mph is 5500 in Second gear. But in First-over (GVod) it is 6900, and she is screaming like a banshee, on fire. Lotsa times the tires are too.
If you ever get the chance; 6900 at 65 mph, lifting with 11.3 to one Scr and simultaneously slamming the un-proportioned brake pedal, with the 295s, is a flipping hoot! Watching the passengers whipping around back there is an even bigger hoot! Caution; don't do this with a girl in the car or skinny-azz nerds. And for gosh-sake yell out that yur gonna do it, lol.
>BTW, I also have small chambers, and the Ica on my cam is 63*. So my engine is sorta just like yours except 367 cubes to your 323. Oh and 177psi cranking cylinder pressure, or more.
>I run the factory heavy 340flywheel, just had it rebalanced. My car is 3650 with me in it, so it likes a heavy flywheel.
>BTW-2; this is what 177psi can do for you. If you only have 137psi, most of this will not be in your "playbook". It's Not about cubes. At NO TIME does my 360 need full-throttle. What it is all about, is the running cylinder pressure. And that starts with having the ignition timing set right;
Your engine, every engine, has exactly one ideal crank-position at which peak cylinder pressure should occur; namely, in the range of 25 to 28 degrees AFTER TDC. ALL your advance systems need to be set up to make this happen at ALL load and rpm settings; but without computerized timing, this is impossible. What it is possible, is to get your "PowerTiming" after about 3600rpm, set up pretty close. And so, it is very important to get that dialed in. As for the rest, below about 3600, if it ain't detonating, it can wait.

Ok so lets see your compression test results;
I sure hope the Wallace is wrong, and IMO, that can only happen if I input wrong data .
EDIT
Well, while I was typing, I see the cam specs have surfaced, so that cam does not have an ICA of 64*; probably closer to 57*, so I guess we'll see. With the new Ica of say 57*, the Wallace predicts a CCP now, of 146psi, which is certainly a lot better.
 
>Some quick math says that your Scr (Static compression ratio) is possibly as high as 9/1
>Wiki says Waterloo is at 329Meters/~1100ft elevation.
>A bit of a cam to me has an Ica of ~64degrees. And to make 320 honest Crank hp, your 318 would need all of that plus more pressure.
>Using those numbers, the Wallace calculator predicts a cranking cylinder pressure of just about 137psi.
> 3.23s are a great gear for; ........ for a multi-purpose car, or a car with a bigger engine. But lousy for performance in a low-compression 318, and especially for to do burnouts with, without a Line-Loc/Roll-Control.
>If that pressure prediction of 137psi is close, I suggest you do a compression test, before you do anything more. In a manual-trans application, the less pressure you have, the harder it will be to develop a technique, and with a low pressure reading, you will just end up being very frustrated.
Until then and until you get your Line-Loc installed; I suggest that you forget about doing burnouts, ...... unless you got skinny 235s or something.
> In any case, I've been driving the A833, on the street, almost continuously since 1970, and I have never learned no heel and toe. So either I am an un-coordinated sob, or it takes a boat-load of practice. Besides, without a Line-Loc, your engine will be fighting the rear brakes . Your engine, if 137psi is close, does not have any extra low-rpm power for that.
With the lack of pressure, and no Roll-Control;
you will have to abuse your combo with rpm, to shock the tires/suspension to get slippage started, and then immediately get on the gas to keep the secondaries open, while simultaneously scrambling to adjust the brake pedal to keep the engine from stalling or to keep the car from skating unpredictably (with the front brakes locked and skating, you cannot steer). That's a lot to learn in a very very short period of time; and EVERY time you try it, circumstances will be different, so your brain will have to adapt........ constantly. I suggest also to install a mechanical-Secondary carb, it will make control so much easier.
===============
Here's how I do it, with 3.55s and 295/50-15s/235s on the front :
>I set the Line-loc with a toggle switch, so I can set it and forget it.
> I rev the engine up to, IDK in the range of 1800 to 2000, and start feeding in the clutch, while maintaining the rpm. If the road surface is particularly good it might take 2500 to bust them loose.
> Then, once the tires are rotating, and the clutch pedal is up, I idle the engine down to just above stalling, and let the tires howl for a while, sorta like I hear "coon-dogs" baying on the telly. Passengers and spectators alike, seem to find this very entertaining; as do I lol.
>As the tires heat up, they start to drag the engine down, so I give her a lil more gas-pedal
> then when the tires are ready, as shown by the smoke pealing off, I rev her up to IDK maybe 3500 and stuff it into second. Then I just keep her there, sometimes playing with the throttle, while the guys in the back seat are rolling with laughter.
> after a bit, I might release the line-loc, idle down a bit, and start doing Figure-Eights or Donuts. After the guys are ready to puke, I'll do one of three things;
1) straighten out and slam the go-pedal to 65mph, then slam the whoa pedal. or
2) I have been known to do huge full-lock 360s around buildings and such, and have the tickets to prove it. or
3) if one of the guys can't keep his stomach down, I might have to stop. But if I see a speed-bump, I'm hitting that first. Everybody gets a puke-sac when they get in.

In my rig, 65mph is 5500 in Second gear. But in First-over (GVod) it is 6900, and she is screaming like a banshee, on fire. Lotsa times the tires are too.
If you ever get the chance; 6900 at 65 mph, lifting with 11.3 to one Scr and simultaneously slamming the un-proportioned brake pedal, with the 295s, is a flipping hoot! Watching the passengers whipping around back there is an even bigger hoot! Caution; don't do this with a girl in the car or skinny-azz nerds. And for gosh-sake yell out that yur gonna do it, lol.
>BTW, I also have small chambers, and the Ica on my cam is 63*. So my engine is sorta just like yours except 367 cubes to your 323. Oh and 177psi cranking cylinder pressure, or more.
>I run the factory heavy 340flywheel, just had it rebalanced. My car is 3650 with me in it, so it likes a heavy flywheel.
>BTW-2; this is what 177psi can do for you. If you only have 137psi, most of this will not be in your "playbook". It's Not about cubes. At NO TIME does my 360 need full-throttle. What it is all about, is the running cylinder pressure. And that starts with having the ignition timing set right;
Your engine, every engine, has exactly one ideal crank-position at which peak cylinder pressure should occur; namely, in the range of 25 to 28 degrees AFTER TDC. ALL your advance systems need to be set up to make this happen at ALL load and rpm settings; but without computerized timing, this is impossible. What it is possible, is to get your "PowerTiming" after about 3600rpm, set up pretty close. And so, it is very important to get that dialed in. As for the rest, below about 3600, if it ain't detonating, it can wait.

Ok so lets see your compression test results;
I sure hope the Wallace is wrong, and IMO, that can only happen if I input wrong data .
EDIT
Well, while I was typing, I see the cam specs have surfaced, so that cam does not have an ICA of 64*; probably closer to 57*, so I guess we'll see. With the new Ica of say 57*, the Wallace predicts a CCP now, of 146psi, which is certainly a lot better.
Hi AJ,
So after you responded to my thread (Oct 10) regarding my compression and your Wallace calculations I went out and bought a compression tester to see where I was. I tested 2468 side of engine as it was easiest to get at. It was as follows; 141, 142, 138, 143
Your Wallace calculations had it possibly at 146.
Anyway all this leads to a question. Would I see a big difference if I made it into a 390 stroker? I don't want to get rid of the top end as it's all the upgraded parts. I would likely change the 1.88 intakes to 2.02 at the same time. I tried to send this as a PM but your inbox is full.
 
Would I see a big difference if I made it into a 390 stroker?
That's a loaded question;
Of course you would see a big difference......... but to what end?
I don't read anywhere that you are complaining about the current engine.
An average of 140 is NOT the end of the world, that is pretty stock for a 318LA. At the pressure your current engine should be easy to tune for 87E10.

XE262H which has 262/270 duration and a 462/470 lift. The specs have an operating rpm range of 1300-5600.

This cam in your engine, if it has headers and a free-flowing exhaust, installed right, might have peak power at 4800;
but the power curve at 4800 will be long and flat, which is why the operating range is listed so high. If you short-shift at 4500 or even 4800, the rpm drops into the basement, "off the cam" and she will struggle to get back up on it. With a power-peak at near 4800, the torque peak will be around 3300, so for fast ET, you want the rpm to stay above that ....... at the least.
Thankfully, the A833 makes this easily doable.
However, in your case, with the long relatively flat power curve, you can stretch the rpm out quite a ways and take advantage of coming into the next gear with more power.
The 1-2 split in the Regular A833 is 72.2% meaning that at whatever rpm you shift into Second, the Rs will drop to 72.2%. So, if you outshift at say 5400, then it will in-shift at 3900. and ...... the outgoing power my be equal to the incoming power, which will usually give you the highest average power thru that gear..... so that is what I do when I'm looking for the quick way.
For a streeter it doesn't usually matter much in first gear, cuz the tires are spinning the entire time anyway. But again, in your case, I think your modest 140psi will not get it done. So then, it is the right thing to do.
If you do this, with ALL 4 barrels open, ALL the way, then you should see a Big improvement in performance with the current engine.
So therefore, for you, at this time, I would give your combo another chance.
To get off the line in a hurry just takes practice.
Rev it up to 2400 and start giving it some clutch. As soon as you do that, the Rs will want to fall, so quickly, give it more gas to keep the revs close to 2400, and simultaneously keep feeding it clutch. Continue until the clutch is out all the way, and the gas pedal is floored. Then hang on cuz the 1-2 shift is coming up in a hurry.
As you get more proficient at this, you can try higher rpm at zero-mph, say 2800 and then 3200. Sooner or later the tires will want to spin, so back up a couple of hundred rpm, and practice that for a while.
On the shift into Second, there is no slipping required.
As a newbe; for low-ET;
you will simultaneously back out of the throttle, push down on the clutch pedal until the freeplay is gone, then another inch or maybe two, and rip the stick back into Second. These three actions must take place simultaneously but milliseconds apart in the right order.
I highly recommend not to practice this with the engine off, cuz there is no way to know how your Second gear is lined up in the box, and if it isn't, then you can I suppose, damage your brass synchronizer ring.
As you get your practice in and become confident, you can experiment with the amount of clutch you give it, and the distance that you back off the throttle. Eventually you might try letting the engine flare UP during the shift.
Shifting into Third is the same.

If your car will not spin the tires; figure out what gears are in it, before condemning the engine. With your combo, I suggest a minimum 3.55 gear.
If you have passengers, forget showing off.

Happy HotRodding
 
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Yes, impressive. (Wallace cal.)

Thanks for all of your help. The biggest learning curve for me will be to run those high rpm. Well, high to me considering I was shifting like a grandpa at 2500.
 
Brake stand or power braking as some call it is extremely abusive. It destroys rear brakes. A line lock is what you need to do burnouts with a manual transmission.
 
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