Convert Proform ignition to Pertronix?

Hi from England!
I have a 1965 Jensen CV8 with a chrysler 383. I recently fitted new proform distributor with orange box. (see at 383 IGNITION KIT | Martin Robey )
It worked for a while but now gives no spark. I have gone back to the old mechanical distributor which is 50 years old but worn and corroded.
My question is: is there a Igniter II or III kit that will fit the new distributor? What is the part/order number?
If not, what is the Igniter part/order number to fit inside the original distributor that came with this 383?
Many thanks, hope someone can help.


proform

ON common issue with those types of kits is the ignition box case doesn't ground well or at all.

The area in red below should have the paint removed enough for he screw to make good contact. Some including myself even run a ground wire to it.

Per your Points Distributor, Contact Pertronix and give them any numbers you find on the distributor.

Lastly we want pics of the Jensen! Very cool cars, there are a few here but they are not common.

Thanks for the response Dano. The car is fibreglass bodied, so I made sure the earths were good, taking it straight from the battery. (also new high current strap to the chassis & engine).
I am not looking to get the proform working, the wiring is really messy as it crosses the engine. I have contacted pertronix (europe) but no reply (yet).
Tx again

Also ask pertronix what coils will work with their unit as not all coils work.

tx slowswinger. Yes indeed. I plan on a pertronix flamethrower, which runs constantly at 12v. The car currently has a coil that uses a ballast resistor (so the points don't burn) i.e. gets 6v while running, 12v while cranking. Strangely, the Proform needs/uses a ballast plus coil - despite no points!
In case anyone is not familiar with the Jensen CV8, photo below of my Mk2. Only a few hundred made, the US influence went further than the engine (which I believe was "cop spec" @ 330bhp). I've had it now for 40 years, got it as a wreck when I was a student.
Not an A-body, so I hope you don't mind me posting in your forum, which I have found most helpful.

..........Or use your Proform dist. to trigger a GM 4 pin HEI module, or since you are in Britland, are the Holden style modules available there? My understanding is that some of the "ready to run" distributors use those, similar to a GM module

Caveat: Whether Mopar style box, GM, or Holden module, THEY MUST be grounded. The modules must be properly mounted on a heat sink, and pay attention to trigger "polarity' which changes what is called "rotor phasing"

Interesting car! We have a few Jensen Interceptors here in the U.S.....both 383 and 440 versions. Almost bought a wrecked one at an auction a few years back, but, it went for more than I wanted to spend with the damage it had.

In the 80's I worked for a large parts store in town and a guy had a Jensen. I THINK it had an RB in it One day he came in with this magnificent wood dash, but damaged. He brought in in to show me and some other guys. It was walnut/ mahogany, don't know, but very high quality. He said he'd ordered one from England, I don't remember how long it took, but he claimed it wasn't very long at all. I think the earlier cars came with early hemis. I vaguely remember one parked at the National City (San Diego) Plymouth dealer and it had an early hemi in it

Giles said:

The car currently has a coil that uses a ballast resistor (so the points don't burn) i.e. gets 6v while running, 12v while cranking.

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The ballast is not "just" for points. Pretty much all U.S. cars used that setup "in the day." The ballast acts as a sort of regulator--as the engine changes RPM, and the coil tries to draw more, the ballast heats up--and cuts back current flow, hence the name "ballast."

Also, "it sort of" works like this..........with your car normally running at system voltage of nominal 14V (not 12) the coil runs "about" 11-12 plus or minus. When starting, of course the battery is pulled down in voltage, worse on cold winter days. So the bypass circuit feeds direct battery power to the coil + for starting, thus still feeding 10-11V to the coil

I don't know how Jensen did the bypass circuit---Mopar is the only folks who did the bypass circuit in the ignition switch. Ford/ GM (and I guess AMC) used starter solenoids with an extra relay contact, labled "I" for "Ignition." That is what feeds hot 12V to the coil for start

ON THAT NOTE check that your coil IS getting voltage when cranking--maybe the bypass circuit has a problem

Giles,
What post #6 said. Pertronix Ignitors are best left on the shelf.....at Pertronix.

Use a GM 4 pin module. First check your dist p/up coil. Resistance should be 150-400 ohms. Air gap 0.006-8". If these check out, extremely unlikely that the dist is at fault. GM module has these markings: g, w [ pick up connections ] & b,c. The black p/up wire connects to terminal g. The other wire goes to terminal w.
Full 12v supply goes to terminal b, & 12v also goes to coil [+] terminal, sometimes marked 'Bat'. The c terminal goes to coil [-] & tacho also connects here. You need to mount the module on a heat sink, a piece of scrap alum 3/16 - 1/4" thick is fine, about 3 square inches [ 3 by 3 ]. Try & mount in a cool place, I have mine under the dash but can be in the engine bay. Use heat sink compound [ NOT dielectric grease ] between module & HS. The ferrules on the module are the ground return so make sure the HS is properly earthed. No problem extending the p/up wires, they can be thin wire, but twist together, keep near metal & away from HT leads or coil [-] wire.

I'm still trying to figure out why everyone shys away from the factory Chrysler electronic ignition. With quality parts (and they're not THAT hard to find) they're tough to beat.

Bewy said:

Giles,
What post #6 said. Pertronix Ignitors are best left on the shelf.....at Pertronix.

Use a GM 4 pin module. First check your dist p/up coil. Resistance should be 150-400 ohms. Air gap 0.006-8". If these check out, extremely unlikely that the dist is at fault. GM module has these markings: g, w [ pick up connections ] & b,c. The black p/up wire connects to terminal g. The other wire goes to terminal w.
Full 12v supply goes to terminal b, & 12v also goes to coil [+] terminal, sometimes marked 'Bat'. The c terminal goes to coil [-] & tacho also connects here. You need to mount the module on a heat sink, a piece of scrap alum 3/16 - 1/4" thick is fine, about 3 square inches [ 3 by 3 ]. Try & mount in a cool place, I have mine under the dash but can be in the engine bay. Use heat sink compound [ NOT dielectric grease ] between module & HS. The ferrules on the module are the ground return so make sure the HS is properly earthed. No problem extending the p/up wires, they can be thin wire, but twist together, keep near metal & away from HT leads or coil [-] wire.

Click to expand...

I agree just fitted a pertronix on my 340 run like crap pulled the distributor found on 0 degrees i have 10 thou gap between the magnets at 180 50 thou it is so off centre it is not funny it is probaly why there are so many reports where the magnets fall out it is because the tape rubs & falls off allowing the magnets to drop out.
Being a electronics manufacturer i may make a higher quality pcb 2oz with heavy tracks & quality high temp components.

Thanks 67Dart for the clarification on resistance increasing, and Bewey for the advice. On the CV8 the ballast is shorted by a relay that comes off the ignition switch, and this works fine. With the old distributor in, all the voltages are correct. There's a small drop (just a volt or so) on cranking over the battery itself, and 11-12v at the coil primary. Really good spark.
With the proform in, there's only 8v coming out of the unit, and no spark. It had previously run OK (in fact perfectly through the whole rev range) for a couple of hours with the proform. I know this sounds like a bad earth, or a dry joint, but I have tried direct-wiring it from the battery, the same.
I saw a web page on how to test the ECU out of the car, I think I will try that. Disappointed to hear the pertronix has problems, I thought they were the bees knees.

Re the CV8, the Mk1 had a burr walnut dash, and a 361 engine (5.9 litre). For the Mk2, they put in a Formica (!) dash - at the time this was the latest hi-tech material (and a 383). They soon realised the Formica looked awful, and reverted to walnut for the Mk3.

The CV8 (mine anyway) has serious heat soak problems, causing poor/no hot starting from no spark and/or fuel percolation, and sorting the ignition has been just one step in overcoming this. Incremental improvements have been a new edelbrock carb, a 3/8 heat gasket under it, Carter electric fuel pump, new coil & ballast, moving the coil to a cool place, replacing the high current earth strap, each of which made it a little better. It's frustrating that the problem is now cold starting (with the ecu)!

In fact the test is on this forum
Chrysler Electronic Ignition No Spark

Pertronix only makes units to retrofit points distributors. I only use the Petronix I the II and III have some issues, getting much better but still there. If needing a new set up PM me I have it all. Also the new proform kits the ECU's are junk knockoffs that are Mopar authorized". FYI In your ccase prob the easiest solution over there would be go with a gm 4 pin like Bevy mentioned. I would think they are available there.

Tx halifaxhops. I heard the pertronix I had a problem with burning out if the ignition is left on. Is this a real worry, or "just theoretical"?

My first carter pump burned out for this reason after a week. It was wired to the ignition and whirring away (without fuel) while working on something else. I was told AFTER that the petrol is the lubricant. STUPID DESIGN!!!
As I had already made the mounts, I replaced it like for like but it still smarts...

Any electronic will burn out with the ign left on. I do tons of this stuff and have tested alot of different systems. A typical mopar ECU draws 4 amps on not running and 2.5 amps running for example. Similar I will only use the I in my rebuilds, the II and III have had to many fail right out of the box to trust them. Yeah Carters colant was ot great at all. You almost always have to run a return line with them. I use a aeroquip? in mine probably miss spelled it. Cool car by the way, had a chance to buy a intercepter years ago with a blown motor for 800 USD, dumb kid I was for not doing it!

Hi uk im running a proform dizzy and its the ecu that comes whid thats is the problem pure junk just hook up a msd 6al and you are safe nothing wrong whid the dizzy Mp copy

halifaxhops said:

Any electronic will burn out with the ign left on. I do tons of this stuff and have tested alot of different systems. A typical mopar ECU draws 4 amps on not running and 2.5 amps running for example. Similar I will only use the I in my rebuilds, the II and III have had to many fail right out of the box to trust them. Yeah Carters colant was ot great at all. You almost always have to run a return line with them. I use a aeroquip? in mine probably miss spelled it. Cool car by the way, had a chance to buy a intercepter years ago with a blown motor for 800 USD, dumb kid I was for not doing it!

Click to expand...

Actually a properly functioning GM HEI 4 pin does not. It does not draw coil current with "key on."

Pertronix/ Mopar/ this Proform/ etc certainly do MSD will not hurt the coil, I don't know how much idle current an MSD box draws (it must at least run the HV inverter)

Giles,
The Carter pump is NOT a stupid design! Your 'failure' is only the second one I have heard of since it's 1969 intro. The fuel circulating through the elec motor is a brilliant design as it lubes the brgs, keeps the pump cool & eliminates a seal [ which Holleys have & cause failures ]. Any device that requires lubrication & is run without lubrication is going to fail, not the fault of the device!! The other failure I heard about....well lets just say I have my doubts that it was the pump itself that was at fault. I DO know of one Carter elec pump that was removed after 19 yrs of service; not because it failed, but because the owner thought it had earned it's 'retirement': and it was a daily driver!! These are the most reliable out of tank pumps ever made for carbed engines. If you mount the pump too high above the tank, the pump may not pull the fuel. Good idea to prime the pump on the bench before mounting. Dribble some oil into the inlet side of the pump; then run it for a few seconds.

With ANY elec pump, you should have a safety oil pressure switch in the oil pressure cct. If the car has an idiot light, you can use that to trigger the pump. If you have an oil pressure [ OP ] gauge, you can fit a Tee piece & fit the switch to the Tee.
How it works: If you are in an accident & the engine stalls, OP goes to zero & stops the pump pumping fuel. For easy starting, a little bypass sw under the dash allows you to power up the pump to start the engine.

Back to ign.
The HEI I described is the best way to go for a number of reasons. More compact, less wiring. HEI has adaptive [ variable ] dwell. The Chrys ECU does not. To avoid misfires at higher rpms, the C ECU increases the dwell period. The coil is charging [ current flowing ] during dwell. At idle & low speeds, dwell does not need to be high....but it is......because it is fixed. Result is that the coil gets hot. Not good in an already hot engine bay.
HEI has adaptive dwell; dwell is reduced at lower rpms for cooler coil running. Also, to get the best out of HEI you should use an E core coil that does not use a ballast res. The MSD # 8207 is cheap & excellent. Also, Bosch had a GT40 E core coil that is very good, maybe available in the UK.
You can open your plug gaps to 0.060" with the extra spark energy of the HEI.

Congrats on the Edel carb, a good choice.

Thanks for the comments Bewy. Perhaps the design could be improved with big red letters on it saying DO NOT RUN DRY FOR MORE THAN 30 SECONDS OR IT WILL SEIZE! I have since seen this warning added to web sites that sell the pump, so I assume they have had returns for this reason. It may be rare for others, but my experience is 50% fail

Re the pressure switch, yes that's on the list and I fully agree, but I'm trying to do so many things at once the danger of crashing (in my garage) is low! I fitted the (1st) pump, it didn't start, I wondered if I had done something wrong, so I reconnected the fuel line to mechanical pump temporarily (which I knew worked, at least when cold) while I started looking at the ignition probs (fitted the EI same day). That's why it seized. For the second pump, I put an inline switch in so I could turn it off from the engine bay while working on the electrics - apart from anything else it makes a heck of a racket! And for a few days it was great - until the EI stopped working.

Yes, I know now not to run the pump dry. I had thought it would be like any other electric motor and have sealed bearings. Now I have checked how it works internally I see why it seized.

I guess I am sounding over-defensive - I don't mean to be, and I really do appreciate the advice from you and others in this forum.

I have lived with the heat soak for decades, only doing mechanical and body work while I have owned it. Now I am semi-retired I am trying to finally sort the heat soak from a start position of zero knowledge. I have learned in the last couple of months how to set points, adjust timing, how ignition works with and without ballast, measure dwell angle, wear gloves while rotating the distributor (!!!), track down and fix heat-associated conduction problems, play with fuel lines and vacuum hoses, adjust carbs, and much more. I have even learned not to rest my hand on the fan. It's been an interesting journey, but this knowledge comes without experience (which I am sure most will agree is a grim condition!).

My teachers have been forums like this, it's great to have so many experienced people give up their time to help, so hard for you to judge what a person asking a question knows or doesn't know, has tried or hasn't tried, and still give concise and helpful responses. Thanks again!



On an aside, this is a photo of my dash which I re-veneered with walnut myself about 30 years ago. Below it is the original formica (from another CV8). Interesting features are the green indicator lights behind the steering wheel, which can be flipped shut in case you don't want to know when you are indicating (huh?), and on the lower pic the central Selectaride switch below the air outlet, which adjusts the suspension to be very soft, soft, medium, or hard - or more accurately does very little. There is no "Park" on the gear selector, which is a real problem as the handbrake isn't great, even though it is a normal torqueflite box. I re-covered the leather dash-top then, it now has many fingernail scratches as the wheel is too close.

Love that dash! Question why do you want to get away from a points ignition? They last 10K miles usually with a good set.

A breakdown guy strongly suggested it. He seemed very knowledgeable and had tried to fix it on the kerb (usa curb?) and failed. "One less thing to worry about." I now suspect the lack of spark was general heat soak related, not (just) points. But it ran so beautifully during the short time my new EI worked compared to the mechanical now, I would love to get that back again.

Also my wife (left of pic and very fed up after 7 hours waiting in the rain) says she wont go in it again unless "everything's fully sorted".

From what I am reading sounds like the ECU is done. You have a few choices to make the easiest get a good ECU and replace the bad one. Go back to points with NORS or NOS tested parts, new ones suck. Or go with the GM four pin that Dewey suggests really your call. I would guess that has Lucas electrical system in it. is it positive ground?

I am confused about whether/which control boxes can be used with my new Proform distributor, which has a built-in magnet. Searching is making me more confused.

1. GM 4 pin module. Is this an external unit? Would it work with the proform distributor? Is this it?
PerTronix D2000 Flame-Thrower HEI GM 4 Pin Module

2. Orange box (replace my probably broken one) - is there a good quality one available or are they all suspect?