Ignition system, battery to starter/solenoid

Hi everyone

1969 Dart, 225 /6, 904 trans, no starter relay or battery +ve cable.

So, I'm getting close (or thought I was) to lighting up my /6 and realised that I actually do need the starter relay to tie the driver side system parts as I reference them (battery, starter relay, starter/solenoid) with the passenger side system parts (ballast resistor, coil, dizzy, plugs) or do I ? From the FSM it looks like the 'I' terminal on the relay is the link between the two sides of the ignition system. Given I don't have the relay yet (will order it of course) can I simply run a jumper from battery +ve to the terminal on the ballast resistor receiving the 'ignition 2' feed and running the 14DBL wire to the coil and put a switch somewhere along this jumper to act as an pseudo ignition switch in the meantime ? Apologies if this sounds like a baffoonish idea.

Second issue is my 904 is stuck in 2 gears and I'm not sure which 2. The control lever is bent like a 9" nail (I don't know how this is possible or why it happened) and gets stuck on a tranny boss so I cannot move it and I'm not sure which gear it's in but think it's a drive gear given the angle it's sitting at. This leads me to think I must isolate the rear wheels (prop shaft remove or jack stands under rear axle housings) as with no starter relay and therefore no NSS I might just propel the car out the garage like a rocket if the engine fires. Very difficult to get to the control lever and kickdown lever with the tranny and exhaust pipe in the way so will either remove prop shaft or lift rear end (likely the latter).

Cables, can someone please take a pic of their 225 /6 +ve cable set up as I'm flying blind here. I've got the -ve cable running from a driver side engine mount bolt to battery and the ground strap from the head to the firewall. I'm good there but they will both need replacing as they're both ratty. The +ve cables online seem to have an extra cable (black - ground ?) running the length of the thick red +ve one going to the starter. Maybe this is for a 1970 and later year and will look at that FSM to try and figure that one out. This is certainly not a 1969 setup as I can see from the FSM. Seem to be few examples of the +ve battery cable set up for the 1969 225 /6 so any pics from your cars or online resources where I could buy these would be great. Maybe I can just drop this black cable or use it to replace my ground strap cable. You guys know and as my wife tells me, I know nothing.

Edit: Here's a reference to that black wire following the hot starter cable.
New, show-quality set of original-equipment style positive and negative battery cables for 1967-69 Plymouth and Dodge A-Body


Thanks all
Chris

ConfusedMuchOfTheTime said:

Hi everyone

1969 Dart, 225 /6, 904 trans, no starter relay or battery +ve cable.

..... realised that I actually do need the starter relay to tie the driver side system parts as I reference them (battery, starter relay, starter/solenoid) with the passenger side system parts (ballast resistor, coil, dizzy, plugs) or do I ? From the FSM it looks like the 'I' terminal on the relay is the link between the two sides of the ignition system. Given I don't have the relay yet (will order it of course) can I simply run a jumper from battery +ve to the terminal on the ballast resistor receiving the 'ignition 2' feed and running the 14DBL wire to the coil and put a switch somewhere along this jumper to act as an pseudo ignition switch in the meantime ? Apologies if this sounds like a baffoonish idea.

Click to expand...

I believe you are in fact confused. The starter relay does not "tie" anything together.

HERE IS HOW the basics of the start/ ignition circuit(s) PLURAL they are SEPARATE circuits work:

FIRST the ignition switch has "certain" specific outputs and that is the source of ALL switched power in the car except headlights, tail/ park lights, brake lights, and hazard flashers, and dome lights. All of THAT is switched by the switches controlling them, as they are supplied "hot" and not through the ignition switch

IGNITION SWITCH has specific outputs which are DIVORCED from each other to prevent backfeen in some cases
1....ACCESSORY---hot in both "run" and "accessory", ACC feeds a big wire to the buss in the FUSE PANEL, through a few fuses, and off to accessories like radio, heater, etc

2....RUN........important........"the RUN" position of the key and the "RUN" output is ONLY hot in the "RUN" position. IT is DEAD in "accessory" and more important it is dead in "START"

3....and......START....There are TWO separate switch contacts that are BOTH hot in "start" They are the yellow "START" wire which feeds through the bulkhead and fires the "start" relay

4....The second is the brown bypass circuit to the coil side of the ballast. THIS ESSENTIALLY feeds full hot battery power, during cranking, to the coil+ AND IS THE source of coil power during start.

There is only one way I know of to crank the starter if you do not have a relay. If the key is all wired up as it should be, simply turn the key to "run" to supply coil power. Then with the battery hooked up, jumper a wire/ screwdriver across the two stud terminals of the STARTER.

The wires going to the relay should be "safed" off, that is temporarily "taped." The exceptions are "whatever" wires went to the big stud, with big 5/16 ring ends. These wires must be jumpered together, whatever and how ever many there are.

The big "square screw" terminal is the wire going down to the starter solenoid. This must be "safed" off The two "push on" flag terminals should already be insulated.


HOW THE STARTER RELAY WORKS. The starter solenoid on Mopars draws a LOT of current, so they use a relay to activate the solenoid AND THE starter relay is also part of the neutral safety switch circuit

The "big stud" on the relay is one contact of the relay and also a junction point for BATTERY. Depending on car model/ year it may have additional connections to that stud to draw off battery power for other components.

The "big square screw" is the other contact and has a fairly large wire which goes to the starter solenoid terminal. When activated, the starter relay POWERS this wire

The two "push on" flag terminals are the coil electromagnet One connects to the transmission "neutral safety switch" which is GROUNDED in park or neutral. The other terminal goes to the START terminal on the ignition switch. So IF the key is twisted to start, the yellow wire is hot, powers the start relay which is getting it's ground path through the neutral switch IF THE TRANSMISSION is in park or neutral

WHY DO YOU HAVE A separate power source to the COIL between "START" and "RUN" positions of the key?

EASY. The key switch TURNS OFF the "RUN" and ACCESSORY circuits during START

This is in part so that the battery does not have to supply loads not needed during starting.....like say the heater motor

So if the RUN circuit goes dead, WHERE DOES the coil get power? EASY. From the BYPASS brown IGN2 wire during 'START'

WHY is the START and the BYPASS circuits separate at the key? EASY. Because if they were one circuit, and when the key went back to "run" the "run" power would go to the ballast, through the ballast, BACK through the brown bypass wire, and INTERCONNECT with the "start" wire, and attempt to do TtWO THINGS:

First, the backfeed from the ballast would attempt to hold the start relay engaged and run the starter
Second the power drain from the coil end of the ballast back to the starter relay would DRAG DOWN the coil voltage and only allow miserably low voltage to get to the coil

67Dart273 said:

WHY DO YOU HAVE A separate power source to the COIL between "START" and "RUN" positions of the key?

EASY. The key switch TURNS OFF the "RUN" and ACCESSORY circuits during START

This is in part so that the battery does not have to supply loads not needed during starting.....like say the heater motor

So if the RUN circuit goes dead, WHERE DOES the coil get power? EASY. From the BYPASS brown IGN2 wire during 'START'

WHY is the START and the BYPASS circuits separate at the key? EASY. Because if they were one circuit, and when the key went back to "run" the "run" power would go to the ballast, through the ballast, BACK through the brown bypass wire, and INTERCONNECT with the "start" wire, and attempt to do TtWO THINGS:

First, the backfeed from the ballast would attempt to hold the start relay engaged and run the starter
Second the power drain from the coil end of the ballast back to the starter relay would DRAG DOWN the coil voltage and only allow miserably low voltage to get to the coil

Click to expand...

Wow, thanks @67Dart273 for this explanation. I have the FSM only to go on atm and am learning how the circuits actually work so a real life explanation such as this will go a long way to me and I'm sure others understanding. I'm in no rush to break or kill any components of course and will be installing components to factory and FSM spec. I'm ok on where the wires go from the FSM but at this stage it's 'what' they do which is where my challenge is and makes me the most nervous so the more learning in this area I can do the better. I'll absorb your info and trace it around the car and be back with any queries I might have. Thanks again.

You're welcome. If it helps any, if you happen to be familiar with other older cars like GM and Ford, they too had a bypass circuit, except Mopar did this at the key switch, and Ford/ GM did so at the starter solenoid. "A look" at older GM solenoids, or Ford fender mount solenoid/ relays shows they have a small "S" terminal (start) and "I" terminal--which is the bypass. In these cases, the solenoid has a small contact inside which energizes that "I" terminal during "start" and sends that power to the + side of the coil. Works same way as Mopar except for components used

I don't know how such as Holden did this back in the day

67Dart273 said:

You're welcome. If it helps any, if you happen to be familiar with other older cars like GM and Ford, they too had a bypass circuit, except Mopar did this at the key switch, and Ford/ GM did so at the starter solenoid. "A look" at older GM solenoids, or Ford fender mount solenoid/ relays shows they have a small "S" terminal (start) and "I" terminal--which is the bypass. In these cases, the solenoid has a small contact inside which energizes that "I" terminal during "start" and sends that power to the + side of the coil. Works same way as Mopar except for components used

I don't know how such as Holden did this back in the day

Click to expand...

I've now read this explanation over a number of times and my understanding has vastly improved. I'm not going to attempt to hack the circuits to get the engine to fire and am going to order the starter relay, battery +ve cables, starter relay to solenoid cable and likely replacement ground cables from block to battery and block to firewall. Here are a couple of queries I have.

• What is 'accessory' at the key ? If I have key in at 12 o'clock is this accessory or do I need to move it clockwise any distance ? 'Run' I assume is key in at 45 deg and 'start' is key in at 90 deg. Once key is let go after starting the key returns to the run position at 45 deg.
  
• Is the reference 'run' anologous to the 'ignition 1' circuit on the FSM ?

I have the red fused link, NSS brown and ignition yellow wires just hanging out atm, there is no relay to solenoid wire as this was robbed alongside the battery positive wires (to starter and from relay square terminal to solenoid). Both the NSS brown and ignition yellow wires are insulated, the fused link red wire is not but I think I'll just wait until I get a starter relay anyway as I need to find a relay to solenoid wire too. My ignition barrel and wires look good so I have no reason to suspect problems and am hoping to simply replace what isn't there and press 'GO'.

Neither do I know too much about Holdens of this era but likely to mirror GM in many ways. Thank you for all your technical help here @67Dart273.

"ACC" on the older cars is going CW, left to right, LOCK (column switches) -- "ACC" (runs radio, etc)--OFF--RUN--and START

ACC is all the "accessories" that are on either with key in "run" or "acc". Radio, heater motor, etc.

Yes, "run" is "ign1" and "ign2" is the brown ballast bypass circuit.

Another note, some diagrams incorrectly diagram the "start" and "bypass" circuits and suggest they are the same circuit. They are not. They are as I noted earlier separate switch contacts, in order to isolate them as I explained

EDIT I guess I screwed this up, it's (from left) ACC--LOCK--RUN--START. It's "new GMC" that is "LOCK" at far CCW

Also I would probable get that Transmission "bent nail" fixed. You have to do it eventually and now's a good time since your wiring isn't finished yet anyway. If your trans is between 2 gears it won't like it. No one likes having to remove things to get something fixed, headers, etc, but you'll thank yourself in the end. Good Luck!

67Dart273 said:

You're welcome. If it helps any, if you happen to be familiar with other older cars like GM and Ford, they too had a bypass circuit, except Mopar did this at the key switch, and Ford/ GM did so at the starter solenoid. "A look" at older GM solenoids, or Ford fender mount solenoid/ relays shows they have a small "S" terminal (start) and "I" terminal--which is the bypass. In these cases, the solenoid has a small contact inside which energizes that "I" terminal during "start" and sends that power to the + side of the coil. Works same way as Mopar except for components used

I don't know how such as Holden did this back in the day

Click to expand...

Thank you for taking your time to explain. For me, that would've been a lot of thoughtful effort I'm here to learn, too, along with other members of this forum and it is appreciated.

Well I'm old LOL. 73. My first RR was in '70 at NAS Miramar, San Diego. Not long after, I helped fix a friend's 68 RR that had failed/ broken the "welded splice" in the black ammeter wire. I had his harness strung all over the place, cluster out, in the parking lot of his apartment. He wasn't too sure I knew what I was doing, and I wasn't all that sure, either !!!!

66 Valiant wagon said:

Also I would probable get that Transmission "bent nail" fixed. You have to do it eventually and now's a good time since your wiring isn't finished yet anyway. If your trans is between 2 gears it won't like it. No one likes having to remove things to get something fixed, headers, etc, but you'll thank yourself in the end. Good Luck!

Click to expand...

Yes I want to but I can't get to the damn thing. The exhaust is the main culprit but then there's the tranny cooler lines, NSS cable, speedo cable etc plus the bolt head faces rear so it's tough just to get a socket extension down there. Figure I might just drop the prop shaft or lift the rear wheels up as I just want to kick the motor over and not have to remove the tranny just yet. Certainly not standing starting it from the garage ! or at least that's the plan anyway. I know the TCL is bent in two planes but mine has a third bend plane so that the lower rod/swivel assembly won't attach. Might try and get some photos.