Frontend Issues...

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HobbyPoor

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im trying to sort out an issue. I purchased a 69 dart that had a disc conversion done. The issue is the tires are leaning out at the top...too much camber. The spindles are from Dr Diff, The UCA are PST and rest of the brake conversion is Pirate Jack

I took it to get it aligned and best the shop could get was 2.8 camber....thats with all the adjustment he had.

I took a few pics...does anyone feel the UCAs are on wrong side?

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It looks that way but photos can be decieving, and more so also when the arms are in full droop.
Might think that this photo is showing a negative caster situation but its not.
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Seems pretty difficulty to accidently swap the UCAs - I can't imagine the aftermarket ones are that different.

Lets go over the alignment on your screen.
 
With aftermarket parts (uipper arms) things get sticky What I'd head towards is

Are the strut rods proper and are the strut rod bushings proper and ARE THEY installed properly.

Does the upper arms have the Moog offset bushings? Maybe they are installed wrong. If not you can try them. The center holes are offset to give you more range "in that direction"

What is the caster? Many of these girls "like" all you can give them (lean the spindle back as far as it will go) and then "let up" just enough to get minimal camber. If you are running radials you want the tires IN at the top, or at least zero--certainly not "out"
 
its been a while since I've looked one of these as I've mostly been doing my own old school.
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Correct me as needed. I think we may be looking at the following:
Your saying the top is Caster 2.8 2.9
The next line combines to -3.5*, so is that toe .6 and 4.1* ?
Then we see 9.9 and 18.2* The only that should be up that high is steering axis inclination.
Finally we see .29 and .76 which may be rear toe ?


Here's how it must be done, sequentially, per shop manual.
Set the ride hieght. If you want to go lower than the Shop manual, that's fine. Use the Barracuda hieght as a good starting point.
If the rear is stock or a little lower, then you can go a little lower in the front ride height. All alignment setting s have to be doen at that hieght even if the car must be raised to physically make the adjustment.

Second. Adjust the Caster and Camber.
I tend go Camber, Caster, Camber again.
With radial tires and flat roads, slightly negative camber on both sides. 1/2 degree negative would be fine. Even 1/4 degree. Not positive.

Adjust the casterso they are even and in the positve range. 1.5 positive would be fine, 2.5 or 3 positive great.
If this can be accomplished moving only one adjuster cam, you got lucky.
Otherwise see what can be done on both sides. Whichever side is the least positive, match the other side to it.

Recheck the camber. This time adjust by turning both cams equally. This will keep the caster about the same while adjusting the camber.
Get at least 1/4* negative on both sides.

Finally, adjust toe. It should toe in slightly.

When done in this sequence the changes should not upset the previous item noticibly.
 
its been a while since I've looked one of these as I've mostly been doing my own old school.
View attachment 1715862566

Correct me as needed. I think we may be looking at the following:
Your saying the top is Caster 2.8 2.9
The next line combines to -3.5*, so is that toe .6 and 4.1* ?
Then we see 9.9 and 18.2* The only that should be up that high is steering axis inclination.
Finally we see .29 and .76 which may be rear toe ?


Here's how it must be done, sequentially, per shop manual.
Set the ride hieght. If you want to go lower than the Shop manual, that's fine. Use the Barracuda hieght as a good starting point.
If the rear is stock or a little lower, then you can go a little lower in the front ride height. All alignment setting s have to be doen at that hieght even if the car must be raised to physically make the adjustment.

Second. Adjust the Caster and Camber.
I tend go Camber, Caster, Camber again.
With radial tires and flat roads, slightly negative camber on both sides. 1/2 degree negative would be fine. Even 1/4 degree. Not positive.

Adjust the casterso they are even and in the positve range. 1.5 positive would be fine, 2.5 or 3 positive great.
If this can be accomplished moving only one adjuster cam, you got lucky.
Otherwise see what can be done on both sides. Whichever side is the least positive, match the other side to it.

Recheck the camber. This time adjust by turning both cams equally. This will keep the caster about the same while adjusting the camber.
Get at least 1/4* negative on both sides.

Finally, adjust toe. It should toe in slightly.

When done in this sequence the changes should not upset the previous item noticibly.


Camber is 2.8..which is the best we can get it.
The next line is caster.....6 and 4.1
.29 and .76 is toe.
 
Camber is 2.8..which is the best we can get it.
The next line is caster.....6 and 4.1
.29 and .76 is toe.
There's the problem.
Set the caster at 3 on both sides.
Then turn both cams the same amount in to get a little negative camber.
Finally fix the toe so they are both in evenly when the steering wheel is straight.
If you still have high crowned roads, then you can go with the FSM to see how the made a slight compensation.
 
There's the problem.
Set the caster at 3 on both sides.
Then turn the cams in to get a little negative camber.
Then fix the toe so they are both in evenly when the steering wheel is straight.
If you still have high crowned roads, then you can go with the FSM to see how the made a slight compensation.

We are at max adjustment....There is none left.
 
The problem is the caster is maxed out at positive 6 and 4.1*
Adjust them to 3* on both sides and there will be plenty of room to adjust the camber to be a little negative.
 
The next line is caster.....6 and 4.1

I see the confusion. On the machine its 0.6 and 4.1
That's different. The right has room for adjustment and the left seems way off.
First thing I would check is the ride hieghts.
Caster will go more positive the lower the ride hieght.

Also unless the machine is set up to show camber in reverse, top of the wheels inward is negative. So have him shoot for .2 to .6 negative. don't need 2 degrees negative unless your running race tires that are calling for that.
 
I see the confusion. On the machine its 0.6 and 4.1
That's different. The right has room for adjustment and the left seems way off.
First thing I would check is the ride hieghts.
Caster will go more positive the lower the ride hieght.

Also unless the machine is set up to show camber in reverse, top of the wheels inward is negative. So have him shoot for .2 to .6 negative. don't need 2 degrees negative unless your running race tires that are calling for that.

lower ride height gives you negative camber....machine can not be set up to show camber in reverse. for a street car, it needs to be zero on camber
 
lower ride height gives you negative camber....machine can not be set up to show camber in reverse. for a street car, it needs to be zero on camber


Find another shop. Your problem is the guy doing the work doesn’t have a clue about front end alignment. All he knows is how to work the computer.

Welcome to the 21st century where a business can hire any dummy off the street and teach him to push some buttons. No knowledge is passed down, none is gained. As the older generation dies off we are in a world of hurt.
 
im trying to sort out an issue. I purchased a 69 dart that had a disc conversion done. The issue is the tires are leaning out at the top...too much camber. The spindles are from Dr Diff, The UCA are PST and rest of the brake conversion is Pirate Jack

I took it to get it aligned and best the shop could get was 2.8 camber....thats with all the adjustment he had.

I took a few pics...does anyone feel the UCAs are on wrong side?

View attachment 1715862517

View attachment 1715862519

View attachment 1715862520

View attachment 1715862522

View attachment 1715862523

View attachment 1715862525

View attachment 1715862526

View attachment 1715862527
Those upper control arms look way too long. Like for another application wrong.
 
Find another shop. Your problem is the guy doing the work doesn’t have a clue about front end alignment. All he knows is how to work the computer.

Welcome to the 21st century where a business can hire any dummy off the street and teach him to push some buttons. No knowledge is passed down, none is gained. As the older generation dies off we are in a world of hurt.
That could be it, too. Looking at the rear cam bolts, there's plenty of room to back the camber down. He just doesn't know how. But those arms still look damn long to me.
 
Those upper control arms look way too long. Like for another application wrong.

Control arms would be correct for A body as we only offer this type for either A bodies or B/E Bodies and the B/E's are wider so they would not fit and A Body.
 
Is that arm hitting the bracket hard? It kinda looks like it in the photo. Could that be an interference in adjustment?

upload_2022-2-1_11-49-25.png
 
In some cases but not all with this style of control arm you may need to trim the one tab (per side) on an angle but not all of them. I am wondering if the arms are on the wrong sides but the photos are hard to tell.

James From
PST
 
Hello Everyone,

Just want to give you a little update. I reached out to the original poster concerning his issue and we were able to determine that the upper control arms used in this kit were in fact correct based off a number of measurements/pictures I provided him. We also went over placement of the arms to ensure the position/location was correct which it was. The issue was in fact the lower control arms bushings. The were almost completely gone with metal sleeve on metal sleeve. He has since remedy the situation and should be able to move forward with the alignment. So the moral is look at the basics first and don't assume that all parts in the front end have been replaced at one time or another.

All in all glad it worked out and thanks to all that contributed.

James From
PST
 
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