Should I make the swap to G3?

-
cojohnso said:
I had this opportunity for my B-body. A '69 GTX. That's a nice driver quality car. But not even close to numbers matching. Period correct 440 of lightly upgraded performance. 4-speed Dana rear. Car is D32 coded for an automatic. With interior not even close to fender tag. Thus a very decent candidate for performance upgrade.

I had the opportunity to buy a just off the dyno 6.4 non supercharged Gen III at 545 HP. So the choice? Pull a very good running '68 440 engine at 425 HP for $14k. For this engine. I would need to upgrade K-frame. Clutch/bellhousing. Electrical. Fuel system to EFI. Radiator plumbing redesign. And that's just what I can think of off the cuff?

My Answer was "Thanks, but no thanks. I could spend that $14k on aluminum heads and intake upgrades and cam. A833 transmission replacement for ideally a A855 5-speed. And save all the support hassles and costs to accommodate the newer technologies. And blow that Gen III off the road.

The only engine upgrade I would consider? A Gen II hemi. (A real hemi)

Just my opinion of course. And a quick walk around vid of the subject vehicle below.

Click to expand...


That story makes me ask the question; what do you get with a G3 Hemi that you can't with an LA?

Here's what I could think of:

Cross-bolted main caps
Stiffer block
Raised cam and better (not perfect?) pushrod angles
Symmetrical ports
Direct shot ports due to opposed values rather than inline
Valves move away from cylinder walls instead of towards them
VVT (on '09 later motors only)
Cam position sensor on front of cam instead of all the way at the other end
Crank driven oil pump

Question is, how much do any of those impact a build? I would guess if you don't go over 600 hp, the stiffer block and increased main cap bolts might not make much difference? If the heads flow similar numbers, will it matter that the LA shrouds the valves as they open but introduces a swirl to the mixture? Crank driven oil pump removes twist from the cam, but how much does that play into things?

Questions I can't answer. Does seem to me that the G3 Hemi is more efficient than the LA in regards to MPG and power, but is that only due to tuning, airflow and compression? Don't know.

For me, the fact that someone with some computing power behind them sciences out the 5.7/6.4/6.2 makes me think they are a better all around motor than the LA. If I was shooting for 6-800hp, that (I think) is a no-brainer, but for my mild goals the differences are probably minor enough to not make a big difference.

Just some random thoughts.
 
Just the thought and principal of putting a modern, government designed and regulated overpriced POS in my classic muscle car would make me want to vomit......I work on new cars and find them to be cheap, overpriced, designed for people that are in actuality too stupid to be behind the wheel anyhow and putting something like a Gen 3 hemi in a classic Mopar muscle car that men built just will never ever happen for me.....PERIOD!!!
 
DionR said:
That story makes me ask the question; what do you get with a G3 Hemi that you can't with an LA?

Here's what I could think of:

Cross-bolted main caps
Stiffer block
Raised cam and better (not perfect?) pushrod angles
Symmetrical ports
Direct shot ports due to opposed values rather than inline
Valves move away from cylinder walls instead of towards them
VVT (on '09 later motors only)
Cam position sensor on front of cam instead of all the way at the other end
Crank driven oil pump

Question is, how much do any of those impact a build? I would guess if you don't go over 600 hp, the stiffer block and increased main cap bolts might not make much difference? If the heads flow similar numbers, will it matter that the LA shrouds the valves as they open but introduces a swirl to the mixture? Crank driven oil pump removes twist from the cam, but how much does that play into things?

Questions I can't answer. Does seem to me that the G3 Hemi is more efficient than the LA in regards to MPG and power, but is that only due to tuning, airflow and compression? Don't know.

For me, the fact that someone with some computing power behind them sciences out the 5.7/6.4/6.2 makes me think they are a better all around motor than the LA. If I was shooting for 6-800hp, that (I think) is a no-brainer, but for my mild goals the differences are probably minor enough to not make a big difference.

Just some random thoughts.
Click to expand...
Quench pads in cc chamber. It does allow for a little higher compression. Than LA or Wedge.
 
'68cuda416 said:
Just the thought and principal of putting a modern, government designed and regulated overpriced POS in my classic muscle car would make me want to vomit......I work on new cars and find them to be cheap, overpriced, designed for people that are in actuality too stupid to be behind the wheel anyhow and putting something like a Gen 3 hemi in a classic Mopar muscle car that men built just will never ever happen for me.....PERIOD!!!
Click to expand...
Yeah, we get it, you're not a G3 fanboy! my question is, if you hate them so much, why are you even posting in this section other than to tell everyone how much you hate the G3? You're not really contributing anything useful.
 
Watch the Hot Rod garage episode titled "fast, cheap,mopar, pick two"
I haven't seen it in a while, but believe they ended up with over 11k in the car, and figured the car was worth about $4500!
I'd keep your 408! If you want to do a G3 swap, how about into a 2009 V6 Challenger, I'd think that would almost be affordable:)
 
racerjoe said:
Some goals: No oil leaks. No matter what I do, I still seem to have a very small oil drip after putting some miles on it.
Click to expand...
I have a 6.4 sitting in the corner of my garage I can’t wait to build and install just to get away from all of the stupid little oil drips my SBM seems to sweat. The other plus for the G3 is the booming after market. There are still some pricey aftermarket pieces (like camshafts) but that’s offset by cheap, readily available factory aluminum heads that flow unbelievably. The aftermarket has more critical mass compared to SBMs also with all of the demand from the guys with g3 based modern muscle.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Hell, if that's all we're worried about, go slant 6. They'll take 30 plus PSI and not even breathe hard. lol
Click to expand...
Not without studs, o ringing the deck, and using the proper head gasket. But you’ll get to 30 psi real quick because the head is such a restriction. I’ve yet to see one live a while on more than 12 psi.
 
392heminut said:
Yeah, we get it, you're not a G3 fanboy! my question is, if you hate them so much, why are you even posting in this section other than to tell everyone how much you hate the G3? You're not really contributing anything useful.
Click to expand...
Maybe he didn't realize they were such an ugly engine to have in a cool, classic muscle car.
 
racerjoe said:
The good news is I'm not sitting in a lawn chair behind my car with the hood open very often. I'm driving it!
Click to expand...
LOL......I don't do car shows but you still have to work on them and have the hood open from time to time.....hey it's all good you can enjoy your gov't built POS engine
 
sccachallenger said:
Watch the Hot Rod garage episode titled "fast, cheap,mopar, pick two"
I haven't seen it in a while, but believe they ended up with over 11k in the car, and figured the car was worth about $4500!
I'd keep your 408! If you want to do a G3 swap, how about into a 2009 V6 Challenger, I'd think that would almost be affordable:)
Click to expand...


My car has EFI already. Therefore, the fuel system is there already, along with the ECU. There will be some slight modification to the control system, mainly the coil drivers because I have LS coils which are smart coils, while the hemi coils require an external driver. I'll also make a new harness for the hemi. Again, we're not talking big dollars here. I also own the engine. The biggest expense would be mods to the engine, mounts, and headers. Otherwise, there's no way this would be close to $10K. If I would leave the engine stock, the swap would be relatively cheap since I already have most of the big dollar parts.
 
racerjoe said:
My car has EFI already. Therefore, the fuel system is there already, along with the ECU. There will be some slight modification to the control system, mainly the coil drivers because I have LS coils which are smart coils, while the hemi coils require an external driver. I'll also make a new harness for the hemi. Again, we're not talking big dollars here. I also own the engine. The biggest expense would be mods to the engine, mounts, and headers. Otherwise, there's no way this would be close to $10K. If I would leave the engine stock, the swap would be relatively cheap since I already have most of the big dollar parts.
Click to expand...
Glad you're talented enough to build your own harness!
So just mounts, oil pan, headers, trans adapter or flywheel.
When you pull the trigger let us know what you spend on everything, might encourage others to go this route.
 
sccachallenger said:
Glad you're talented enough to build your own harness!
Click to expand...

The guy is pretty talented, you should read his build thread. I think the harness would be the easy part for him.

sccachallenger said:
So just mounts, oil pan, headers, trans adapter or flywheel.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't need a trans adapter, bolt pattern is the same outside of one bolt the G3 doesn't use. Definitely will need a flywheel, though.
 
sccachallenger said:
Glad you're talented enough to build your own harness!
So just mounts, oil pan, headers, trans adapter or flywheel.
When you pull the trigger let us know what you spend on everything, might encourage others to go this route.
Click to expand...


Just going off memory and quick math, the parts you mention are under $2K. That's with the Holley headers and not the $1K TTI headers!


DionR said:
The guy is pretty talented, you should read his build thread. I think the harness would be the easy part for him.
Thanks! Not to mention making the harness would probably be my favorite part of the job.... I know I know, I have a sickness. I actually like doing bodywork too. LOL



Shouldn't need a trans adapter, bolt pattern is the same outside of one bolt the G3 doesn't use. Definitely will need a flywheel, though.
Click to expand...
Correct!
 
racerjoe said:
Just going off memory and quick math, the parts you mention are under $2K. That's with the Holley headers and not the $1K TTI headers!
Click to expand...

FYI, I think the Holley kit moves the motor forward (and maybe down?). I was interested in their cross member reinforcement kit and trans mount for the TKX and I think I read it there? Not really sure but I think it was related to the SRV on the 6.4 motors and the coolant manifold for the 6.2 crashing with the firewall which Holley solved by pushing the motor forward. Seems like it was several inches, too. Only reason I bring it up is that unless you use their mounts with their headers, might be that the headers don't fit worth a darn. Just a heads up.

Keep me in mind if you build a completely new harness. Might be interested in your existing LA one. :D
 
'68cuda416 said:
LOL......I don't do car shows but you still have to work on them and have the hood open from time to time.....hey it's all good you can enjoy your gov't built POS engine
Click to expand...
Near as I can tell what you're into is self flagilation.
 
racerjoe said:
My car has EFI already. Therefore, the fuel system is there already, along with the ECU. There will be some slight modification to the control system, mainly the coil drivers because I have LS coils which are smart coils, while the hemi coils require an external driver. I'll also make a new harness for the hemi. Again, we're not talking big dollars here. I also own the engine. The biggest expense would be mods to the engine, mounts, and headers. Otherwise, there's no way this would be close to $10K. If I would leave the engine stock, the swap would be relatively cheap since I already have most of the big dollar parts.
Click to expand...
If you want I think I still have my Holley list that I put together for all the Holley numbers. I can send it to you. Be careful on the drivers as I want to say there is two versions for your motor depending on your connectors. Spend some extra time on research and hit the Holley forums. I learned a lot from them. Here is a pix of my POS modern Hemi 6.1 in my Mopar muscle car 72 Demon. I would and will do it again in a heartbeat.

03261161-D087-4AC8-8613-88D90B7116AD.jpeg


1EB0A6DC-9C91-45F1-B48A-922A63F15204.jpeg
 
DionR said:
FYI, I think the Holley kit moves the motor forward (and maybe down?). I was interested in their cross member reinforcement kit and trans mount for the TKX and I think I read it there? Not really sure but I think it was related to the SRV on the 6.4 motors and the coolant manifold for the 6.2 crashing with the firewall which Holley solved by pushing the motor forward. Seems like it was several inches, too. Only reason I bring it up is that unless you use their mounts with their headers, might be that the headers don't fit worth a darn. Just a heads up.

Keep me in mind if you build a completely new harness. Might be interested in your existing LA one. :D
Click to expand...

If and when this happens, the whole engine will be for sale. I've already thought I would need to sell the intake separately because, you know, wires scare people off even though underneath all it, its just a small block.
 
'68cuda416 said:
I don't value the opinion of someone who voluntarily lives in Commiefornia........so there's that
Click to expand...
And I don't value the opinion of a person who denigrates everyone who doesn't share his opinion. If the best you can do is insult people and where they live, perhaps this is not the forum you belong in.
 
And just for the record, my '70 Dart driveline is a 392/6.4L Hemi backed up with a 545 RFE and a 8 3/4 banjo. Tubular front end, subframe connectors, CalTracs, etc. I don't need to apologize for the car.

1B2C9E94-4857-44FE-9251-8DAE96D2ABB9_1_201_a.jpeg
 
Last edited:
retroron said:
And just for the record, my '70 Dart driveline is a 392/6.4L Hemi backed up with a 545 RFE and a 8 3/4 banjo. Tubular front end, subframe connectors, CalTracs, etc. I don't need to apologize for the car.

View attachment 1715866862
Click to expand...
Beautiful car! Well done Sir. I have Cal tracks on my Cuda and love them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top