16:1 vs. 24:1 steering

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MopaR&D said:
Another thing to look at to help with effort at slow speeds would be to add electric power steering from a modern car. It goes around the steering column under the dash, nothing in the engine bay. I don't have experience with manual steering though so I don't have anything to add regarding effort and feel.
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The electric assist off an Opel Corsa/Barina is a popular retrofit to just about everything in countries that have them.. if the US has them they will be GM chevy Buick branded small European style 1.2 litre 2 door or 4 door car
 
Dave999 said:
The electric assist off an Opel Corsa/Barina is a popular retrofit to just about everything in countries that have them.. if the US has them they will be GM chevy Buick branded small European style 1.2 litre 2 door or 4 door car
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Apparently over here they're quite common in smaller Asian cars like Hyundais, Toyotas, Hondas etc. There is a thread on here from a few years back where someone outlined swapping the system from a 2000s Hyundai/Kia into a 60s Mustang to show how it could also apply to classic Mopars.
 
I just put the PST 20:1 manual box in my 70 duster and really like it a lot. I would prefer to have the 16:1 but my son and old lady plan on driving it too so its kinda the best of both worlds I guess. The new box was very nice and installation was a breeze. No fitment issues and not only do you gain some free horsepower but you lose about 30+lbs of weight. I converted from PS because not only was my old box and pump leaking but I am putting a 440 big block in so I want the extra room for headers.
 
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great isn't it
don't go too mad on tyre width and positive castor (some + castor not all available)

you got yourself Australian south african Euro specification steering :)

the specification for places with more winding lanes than 2/3/4 lane highway or urban strip (not so much these days, but In Era....)

if you swap out the idler bush for a urethane one and stick an anti sway bar on it
even better

Front Steering idler bush for Chrysler Valiant RV1 VC VE VF VG VH VJ CJ VK | eBay
cheaper than a bearing conversion, not quite as precise BUT less likely to casue cracked mounting

Dave
 
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Last year I put a PST 16:1 box with electric steering from a 2010 cube. Works and feels great.
 
MopaR&D said:
Another thing to look at to help with effort at slow speeds would be to add electric power steering from a modern car. It goes around the steering column under the dash, nothing in the engine bay. I don't have experience with manual steering though so I don't have anything to add regarding effort and feel.
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I think I remember reading an article a few years back about using the steering setup from a Toyota for this conversion. I can't remember the donor car, I want to say prius.
 
I put a 16:1 PST box in my Barracuda last year. So far I really like it. I'm used to manual steering and like the quicker response of the 16:1 box. If you're looking for easy to steer at low speeds this ain't it. Go to a power steering set up if that's what you want.
 
It's not that I want ease of steering at low speeds, I don't want sloppy steering at any speed. I have researched the parts and the cost to go to a power steering setup, and from what I can see, it's pretty expensive.
RON REAGLE said:
I put a 16:1 PST box in my Barracuda last year. So far I really like it. I'm used to manual steering and like the quicker response of the 16:1 box. If you're looking for easy to steer at low speeds this ain't it. Go to a power steering set up if that's what you want.
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All the new boxes that we offer will be tight with no play. If you are concerned about effort between the 16:1 and the 24:1. Then you may want to consider the 20:1 as it is a happy medium between the two.

Thanks
James From
PST
 
70Duster340 said:
It's not that I want ease of steering at low speeds, I don't want sloppy steering at any speed. I have researched the parts and the cost to go to a power steering setup, and from what I can see, it's pretty expensive.
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Sloppy steering comes from the steering gear being worn out and doesn't really have anything to do with the steering ratio or whether the box is manual or power. Sloppy steering can also be the result of a worn out steering coupler, or tie rod ends, ball joints and other suspension components. So before you buy a new steering box of any kind you should check to make sure the play is in the steering box itself and not somewhere else.
 
72bluNblu said:
Sloppy steering comes from the steering gear being worn out and doesn't really have anything to do with the steering ratio or whether the box is manual or power. Sloppy steering can also be the result of a worn out steering coupler, or tie rod ends, ball joints and other suspension components. So before you buy a new steering box of any kind you should check to make sure the play is in the steering box itself and not somewhere else.
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Well, all the suspension parts in the front end have been replaced. I'm still working on the car, so I haven't driven it for a while. At the time I was still driving it, the steering was a bit sloppy. The upper and lower ball joints, the tie rod ends, and all the bushings have been replaced. I've also installed new torsion bars, polyurethane bushings on the strut rods, and installed a sway bar with greasable bushings.
 
with a manual steering box that is new or rebuilt with new parts in every place but the case, on a re bushed and overhauled front end. there is no slop.....the only flex you feel is bushes compressing and the slightly bendy feel those thin track rods give when near left or right hand lock. if you add in ford truck sway bar links a better idler bush and the box is 20:1 or 16:1. Set up with the car ride standard and level and a modern alignment you are onto a GOOD thing even with $26 KYB gas adjust at each corner. It works in a manner that is not only acceptible but quite impressive... These days you can buy a box for cheaper than rebuilding one in just about any case where a sector shaft or ballnut and screw needs to be replaced. 2 retail cartridges of grease is gonna be $80-100 unless you can "borrow" some from a bulk pack at work.
Dave
 
Dave999 said:
with a manual steering box that is new or rebuilt with new parts in every place but the case, on a re bushed and overhauled front end. there is no slop.....the only flex you feel is bushes compressing and the slightly bendy feel those thin track rods give when near left or right hand lock. if you add in ford truck sway bar links a better idler bush and the box is 20:1 or 16:1. Set up with the car ride standard and level and a modern alignment you are onto a GOOD thing even with $26 KYB gas adjust at each corner. It works in a manner that is not only acceptible but quite impressive... These days you can buy a box for cheaper than rebuilding one in just about any case where a sector shaft or ballnut and screw needs to be replaced. 2 retail cartridges of grease is gonna be $80-100 unless you can "borrow" some from a bulk pack at work.
Dave
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Why is the grease so expensive?
 
I have the 16:1 in my Grüne Hölle Dart.
It's the same one PST has for sale now.. I bought it maybe 6 years ago off rock auto when they had them in stock from Lares.

I love it. I spend much more time driving my car than parking it. Yes it's effort and it's quick.. Nice for AutoX and Twisty Mountain roads Hwy Avoidance and Lane changes cam be made in less than 90° Rotation of the wheel.

I tell people it's my free gym membership.
 
70Duster340 said:
Why is the grease so expensive?
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well i wanted a nice synthetic waterproof lithium grease, i'd used some good red stuff in a VW steering gear years before and it seemed similar in operation to the Mopar one
but i didn't want £500 pail of the stuff, and no longer had access to "borrow" some from work, so had to go with cartridges
mid sized grease gun style 12 inch cartridges
the latter made more sense as i only ever rebuild a box if i need to, and i didn't plan this to be more than once or twice in my life....

have just looked up what i think i used and have found it to be about $22 now

6 years ago when i last had to get some it was £35 a tube + postage i.e about $46-$50 USD and i used a tube and a half, one presumes some competition in the market has resulted in a price reduction. but at the time i was not happy at all becuse the cost of the grease cancelled out any benfit of rebuilding, it sticks in my mind as the stumbling block in my plan. once stung twice shy....as they say

parts cost, time, and the filthy process of cleaning out all the old gunk i could stomach but the straw that broke the camels back was Payday cancelled becasue the gerase was just rediculously expensive

i don't spend my life rebuilding steering boxes althought i did mine 16:1 and converted to RHD, and rebuilt another as LHD for a club members, used my spare NOS RHD 20:1 Ballnut and screw and swapped it to LHD. the aim to offset the costs of my RHD box rebuild but basically all the work to do his box, barely paid for the grease in mine....

i can report with some relief that prices have come down.

but you'd still be hard pushed to make any profit on a single rebuild when a new one is $400-500

details and the odd sarcastic comment :) here
Manual steering box rebuild - Mopar Muscle Association UK

i can't compete with this

1967-76 Mopar A Body, 62 Lancer 16:1 Manual Steering Box (New Production) | eBay


Dave
 
The 68 Barracuda originally was a power steering car. When I got the car I bought a used Mopar manual 24:1 box, took it down and replaced everything internally except the screw and the caged rollers. The box worked ok, except that it had a dead-spot with a bit of play right in the center. Not much but I could feel it.
I went ahead and bought a new 20:1 screw and cage assembly from PST. I installed that and now the steering is spot on. Has a nice feel everywhere. It did come with one surprise. After everything was assembled I checked the turns lock to lock. It is 3.5 turns so the screw assembly that I got is a 16:1
I called PST just to let them know about it, the slow speed steering is not that bad so I was not interested in taking the steering box down again.
My 68 is a slant six car with a lot of emphasis on weight reduction.
Last year 87 motor with a light weight cast crank, aluminum radiator, small starter and alternator, fiberglass hood and bumper, light weight aluminum bumper mounts.
The front end weight reduction helps the low speed steering.
 
70Duster340 said:
What about just adding a fast ratio pitman arm? Would that help with the 24:1 box?
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Fast Ratio Pitman was developed for circle track racing
made for a nice ratio change on a car that spent most of its time going round a corner

issue is that due to the longer arc the long arm scribes, it increases the "speed" of the steering most around the middle and less towards each lock. which happens to be a direct contradiction of modern thinking. A modern variable ratio rack does the oposite.

so if the aim is to add a bit of weight to the steering all good
but it takes you a backwards step if aiming for a more modern feel and nice highway manners..harder to go straight

ballnut and screw change doesn't do this so in a sense is better solution. the ratio is changed at the turning point and all arcs in the travel of the steering stays the same. And the stiffness in the middle of the box when seen by the rest of the steering, i,e the wheels stays the same becasue the pitman arm/ lever has not been extended.
 
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72bluNblu said:
The stock 24:1 is about 5 1/2 turns lock to lock, 16:1 is close to 3 1/2. The aftermarket 20:1 boxes should be about 4 1/2. There’s no markings I’m aware of.

PST has a FABO members discount and sells 24:1, 16:1, and now 20:1 manual steering boxes.

From a handling perspective you want to be able to turn quickly, but that’s not quite as simple as it sounds. A 16:1 box will turn the wheels with less travel on the steering wheel, but it takes more effort, especially at lower speeds. Which means in some cases you may not actually be able to turn the wheel faster because of the higher effort. Like most things, it’s a trade off.
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What is the discount code on the PST site?
 
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