Charging System Question

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RustyRatRod

I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday.
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63 Dodge Dart with 225 slant 6 and stock electrical system. This is the little car I am pretty much working on for free to help a nice young man after his car was vandalized really badly. It had a behind the cluster electrical fire. I have repaired everything that I can find. The alternator is not charging. I know enough about this stuff to get in trouble. lol

Now, since my repairs, the ammeter is working. It shows a slight discharge when the ignition is turned to run. Slightly more with the engine running. I have continuity from the big red alternator wire TO the positive post of the battery. I get battery voltage at the alternator post going to ground. I have a dual field square back alternator that I grounded the second field terminal on.

Months ago, when I installed the alternator, it was charging AT the alternator. In other words, when I went from the bit terminal to ground, I got "around" 14.5V. It however was not getting TO the battery, because of the crispy wires behind the cluster. It has a new BW voltage regulator. Yes, I know new ain't the same as good.

I grounded the field terminal that goes to the regulator. No change. I've tried two other alternators.....don't know if they're good.....it looks like I'd at least "get lucky" with one, but who knows? At this point, I am thinking the "new" alternator might be bad. I did take the voltage regulator off and neither coil is burned and I get resistance on the DVOM instead of an open circuit, so my thinkin is the regulator is good.

Can somebody stupid it up for me here? I would much appreciate it and I know James would too. I would love to give him his car back with the charging system working. @67Dart273 @Mattax What say you fellers? Thanks.
 
Pull the wire off the field spade to the voltage regulator. Throw the meter on the alt output post and ground.. and you'll see battery voltage. Now use a jumper wire, engine running, and touch it from alt output post to the field spade and the alternator should go full field and show you 16+ volts. Then you know you're looking at the feed wire from the battery/bulkhead connections to the voltage regulator as the culprit.
 
I grounded the field terminal that goes to the regulator.
Don't do that! Just jumper the VR to bypass it if you think its the culprit. Same idea ias dadsbee wrote but just answering the question if its a regulator problem.
I did take the voltage regulator off and neither coil is burned and I get resistance on the DVOM instead of an open circuit, so my thinkin is the regulator is good.
Exactly could have burned one of the fusible links in there.
I have continuity from the big red alternator wire TO the positive post of the battery.
I think this is your answer.
With a wire going directly from the alternator to the battery, the ammeter doesn't see charging current.

As far as more discharging while running, apparently the easiest path to the main splice is to go to the battery first.
Is there also a wire from the alternator Batt terminal through the bulkhead to the main splice ?
 
Don't do that! Just jumper the VR to bypass it if you think its the culprit. Same idea ias dadsbee wrote but just answering the question if its a regulator problem.

Exactly could have burned one of the fusible links in there.

I think this is your answer.
With a wire going directly from the alternator to the battery, the ammeter doesn't see charging current.

As far as more discharging while running, apparently the easiest path to the main splice is to go to the battery first.
Is there also a wire from the alternator Batt terminal through the bulkhead to the main splice ?
This is all 100% stock 63 wiring. No fusible links. No "direct wire" to the alternator. It's all stock. Big red runs from the alternator through the bulkhead, to the ammeter, back out the black and "wherever" it goes from there......evidently to the battery. It's not bypassing the ammeter.....it's not charging. Period. I put the meter both directly on the alternator and the battery as well. It shows battery voltage only.
 
Pull the wire off the field spade to the voltage regulator. Throw the meter on the alt output post and ground.. and you'll see battery voltage. Now use a jumper wire, engine running, and touch it from alt output post to the field spade and the alternator should go full field and show you 16+ volts. Then you know you're looking at the feed wire from the battery/bulkhead connections to the voltage regulator as the culprit.
Ok, I was doing that test wrong. Thanks. I'll try it tomorrow cause I'll burn the thing down in the dark.
 
This is all 100% stock 63 wiring. No fusible links. No "direct wire" to the alternator. It's all stock. Big red runs from the alternator through the bulkhead, to the ammeter, back out the black and "wherever" it goes from there......evidently to the battery. It's not bypassing the ammeter.....it's not charging. Period. I put the meter both directly on the alternator and the battery as well. It shows battery voltage only.
OK. You said big red wire from the alt to the battery so I figured you added that. Factory alternator output was always black. Sometimes battery wire was too, except at the ammeter.
Anyway. I now know what you're saying.

Ok, I was doing that test wrong. Thanks. I'll try it tomorrow cause I'll burn the thing down in the dark.

I'd save that test for when the others strike out.
The alternator was producing power at 14.5 V a few months ago. Hard to imagine somehting happened to the wiring since then.
What is the voltage there now with engine running?
Measure the voltage going to regulator (at the IGN terminal on the VR).
If there is power there, then there should be power coming out the other side - just maybe not at the same voltage.
Jumper the VR to see if the problem is the regulator.

upload_2022-4-1_22-53-41.png
 
OK. You said big red wire from the alt to the battery so I figured you added that. Factory alternator output was always black. Sometimes battery wire was too, except at the ammeter.
Anyway. I now know what you're saying.



I'd save that test for when the others strike out.
The alternator was producing power at 14.5 V a few months ago. Hard to imagine somehting happened to the wiring since then.
What is the voltage there now with engine running?
Measure the voltage going to regulator (at the IGN terminal on the VR).
If there is power there, then there should be power coming out the other side - just maybe not at the same voltage.
Jumper the VR to see if the problem is the regulator.

View attachment 1715899751
Black....red.....whatever. LMAO It's the big wire on the alternator stud. Thanks. I'll see about all this tomorrow. I appreciate it.
 
I said red because of the big red wire that attaches to the back of the ammeter.
 
And it's battery voltage at the alternator. 11.8. At the battery, too.
 
You're showin a fuse link up there ^^^^ and this one has none. The early cars did not. I guess they're just supposed to burn down. lol
 
OK. You said big red wire from the alt to the battery so I figured you added that. Factory alternator output was always black. Sometimes battery wire was too, except at the ammeter.
Anyway. I now know what you're saying.



I'd save that test for when the others strike out.
The alternator was producing power at 14.5 V a few months ago. Hard to imagine somehting happened to the wiring since then.
What is the voltage there now with engine running?
Measure the voltage going to regulator (at the IGN terminal on the VR).
If there is power there, then there should be power coming out the other side - just maybe not at the same voltage.
Jumper the VR to see if the problem is the regulator.

View attachment 1715899751
I THOUGHT maybe I could jumper the voltage regulator, but I wasn't sure. I do thank you and I'll report back.
 
I think you got it. The "big" difference between grounded field and the 70/ later scheme........

The single field connection/ grounded field, the VR SENDS power to the field, so jumper power to the alternator field to test
The 70/ later the VR wire GROUNDS the field, as the other field terminal is supplied batt power.

See if you have power to the VR. See if there is any power going to the field. Disconnect "green" and feed power to the alternator field to test. if that works and the VR has power, must be bad VR
 
You're showin a fuse link up there ^^^^ and this one has none. The early cars did not. I guess they're just supposed to burn down. lol
Yes. Sorry I just grabbed a generic sketch.
'65 was first year for the fusible link in the battery line.
 
Yes. Sorry I just grabbed a generic sketch.
'65 was first year for the fusible link in the battery line.
I sure am glad. My 64 doesn't have them either. I hate them bastids. lol
 
If it is the original alt, check the brushes. They wear out.
 
I think you got it. The "big" difference between grounded field and the 70/ later scheme........

The single field connection/ grounded field, the VR SENDS power to the field, so jumper power to the alternator field to test
The 70/ later the VR wire GROUNDS the field, as the other field terminal is supplied batt power.

See if you have power to the VR. See if there is any power going to the field. Disconnect "green" and feed power to the alternator field to test. if that works and the VR has power, must be bad VR
VR had battery power on one side and like 3V on the other. I'll do the power to field test tomorrow in the daylight. lol
 
^^Sounds like VR^^ And as usual, make sure it's grounded
 
Early regulators are basically a normally closed relay contact between IGN and FLD. Coil of relay is on IGN and ground. When the IGN voltage is about 13.8V, the NC contact opens cutting field. After a short time voltage drops, and NC contacts close again, then open as voltage hits 13.8V, chattering as necessary to maintain voltage. If ground is lost at regulator, relay coil never sees voltage, IGN to FLD contact stays shut, so voltage runs high, and will cook battery.

Shorting FLD to ground on a good regulator, may weld regulator contact, or burn up IGN circuit wiring.
 
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Here are scanned copies of 63 service manual schematics
 

Attachments

  • 63 valiant f harness.pdf
    3.7 MB · Views: 74
  • 63 valiant rear harness.pdf
    4.1 MB · Views: 55
  • valiant ins panel.pdf
    4.2 MB · Views: 56
Thanks fellers. We were beat when we got home from the banana puddin festival today, so I will check back in tomorrow after I check out the regulator. I appreciate all of the help.
 
Thanks fellers. We were beat when we got home from the banana puddin festival today, so I will check back in tomorrow after I check out the regulator. I appreciate all of the help.
Banana Pudding Fest! Wow Man, we just had a Strawberry fest. Kinda funny, after the fest, some farms were letting em rot on the vine.. seen it more than once, as I'm right outside of Plant City. In all Fairness, some farmers had the pickers out getting the last. And It did get darn warm for a week, and dry as a bone
 
Thanks fellers. We were beat when we got home from the banana puddin festival today, so I will check back in tomorrow after I check out the regulator. I appreciate all of the help.


Interesting. I might have to add that to the bucket list after I retire.
 
Early regulators are basically a normally closed relay contact between IGN and FLD. Coil of relay is on IGN and ground. When the IGN voltage is about 13.8V, the NC contact opens cutting field. After a short time voltage drops, and NC contacts close again, then open as voltage hits 13.8V, chattering as necessary to maintain voltage. If ground is lost at regulator, relay coil never sees voltage, IGN to FLD contact stays shut, so voltage runs high, and will cook battery.

Shorting FLD to ground on a good regulator, may weld regulator contact, or burn up IGN circuit wiring.

And original type VR's had a fuse link INSIDE the regulator. Parts store replacements may not
 
I jumped around the regulator and BAM it's going toward 15v charging. So I guess that confirms a bad regulator. Thank you all for the help and suggestions. It is much appreciated. Sorry I didn't update this yesterday. I found out about my friend and kinda forgot about it.
 
Before you blow up a new regulator, you might want to jump into "the book" and do a field current check. make sure the wiring looks good (no shorts) and that the brushes are not headed toward a problem.
 
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