The .685 lift has me worried. Kim
8 3/4 gears
- Thread starter 70dart340
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Did you get ahold of Ken yet ?
j par
Well-hung Member
I think pretty much we could call anything "streetable"... My 267 at 50 was streetable.. with 410 gears you just couldn't round it down into second gear and go around the corner and walk your way up off of 1500 RPM... You have to pound it down into first gear coming around the corner and step it up to about 3 Grand then basically bang second gear LOL... Then there's going to like beaches Cruise in on Wednesday night and coming out in a long line of cars that's going slower than idle and keep having to rev the engine up and slip the clutch and then when you can finally let the clutch out and kind of let it idle in first gear it's bucking and snapping and you look over at your wife and her head's whipping forward and backwards like you're going to pop her head off...
Now putting 355 gears and a 234 at 50 I can round corners and second gear and pull up off of 1500 RPMs no problem.. the idles still a little rough but it can idle...
Both cams are what I asked Ken for at Oregon camgrinding...
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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That has an awful lot to do with timing, and Transfer slot exposure. I ran the 292/292/108 (249@.050), and learned real quick that I could not run the same low-rpm timing as guys with automatics do. With the right T-Slot, that 292 would pull itself in 2.66 x 3.55 ,down to 550 in gear at 5* advance. No fuss. And that at over 185psi ccP.
But everybody wants to run 18 or more degrees, so what can you do......... I ran 14* at Idle, and whittled it down to 5 on the fly with a dash-mounted, dial-back, Jacob's Ignition Box. At the other end I ran ~32/34 PowerTiming, plus 22 in the Vcan plus up to 6 more on the Dial-back for cruise timing of up to 60/62* at 3200/3400rpm. At 2800 it was 28+22+ up to 6=56*
I run that same ignition curve now, with a 230/237/110 Hughes HFT and still/again with 3.55s. But now with a 3.09 Commando and a GVod, so 65=2240, lol.... in my 367 lol; that has gone 93 in the Eighth on it's one and only successful run (1 of 4, 3were fails), using the GV as a splitter, for 4 gears to
93= ~6150 rpm. The starter gear is 3.09 x 3.55=10.97, (~s/a 2.66 x 4.10s=10.91)
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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IMO, For a streeter to sacrifice street manners and cruising rpm, for the right rpm in the traps at the track, that you might only ever go to once or maybe twice; is ludicrous. Running the wrong gear will cost you ET, but so will the 2.2 second 60ft due to no traction. But unless you are waaay off with rear gear, you will run a very similar mph. From the mph and raceweight you can determine the horsepower. From the horsepower and weight you can determine the likely minimum ET with SuperStock suspension.
For instance; for my 93mph at 3467 pounds, the Wallace predicts 433 hp.
From 433hp and 3467 pounds, the Wallace suggests 1/4 mile stats of 116@11.64 .
That is enough for me to know. Not interested in spending another buncha money just to find out how close I can get. IMO, low ET in the Quarter, is for bragging rights.
1/8 mile gearing is much more street friendly. For instance, to run 93 in the 1/8th with an automatic, I could hit 93@~5900 with 3.23s in Second gear; or ~6400 with 3.55s still in Second gear. Sure my ET will be down. But the mph will be pretty close. And that is all I need to know.
That's my opinion.
For instance; for my 93mph at 3467 pounds, the Wallace predicts 433 hp.
From 433hp and 3467 pounds, the Wallace suggests 1/4 mile stats of 116@11.64 .
That is enough for me to know. Not interested in spending another buncha money just to find out how close I can get. IMO, low ET in the Quarter, is for bragging rights.
1/8 mile gearing is much more street friendly. For instance, to run 93 in the 1/8th with an automatic, I could hit 93@~5900 with 3.23s in Second gear; or ~6400 with 3.55s still in Second gear. Sure my ET will be down. But the mph will be pretty close. And that is all I need to know.
That's my opinion.
lead69
hopeless car junkie
I understand but considering the duration at .050 I'm thinking that's with 1.6 rockers, with a solid roller and the right valve train that should be fine if that's really what the op wants.
lead69
hopeless car junkie
Its not just one component, its the whole package and once that's right you got to know how to tune, as my favorite actor said in one of his movies, "a man's got to know his limitations"
j par
Well-hung Member
LOL...
I've talked to Jim several ti
I actually have the TF heads, and the specs say it's good for .700 lift with the springs, titanium keepers, and all the important gear. I think Jim Brown is trying to take maximum advantage of the heads with his cam recommendations. Since I want the car to appear somewhat stock, I'll ask him to tone it down a bit. My Swinger 340 will be 90% street, 10% strip. I've decided to go no more than 10.5 to 1 compression, so I can use today's cat piss gas. I have the matching TF track heat intake with the 2" spacer. I plan on using my new Quick Fuel 750 DP AN carb, and a new MSD E-Curve distributor. I'm finally retired, and I want to use the parts I've collected over the past 10+ years. My thanks to all the Gurus on this site for all their advice. She'll be a bad azz street car for my retirement cruising.
roccodart440
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RMS suspension has the best RPM calculator you'll find
j par
Well-hung Member
Well I had to laugh because you can't just tune way too much duration into good Street characteristics for low RPM driving. It may be worth again I'll say it a call to Ken at Oregon camp grinding and see what he says as well. It'll be free and that way you'll have some contrasting or maybe some similar advice. He will give you what you want not try to maximize horsepower at a high RPM at the track...
There's always a compromise between Street drivability and all out track horsepower...
mderoy340
Well-Known Member
If you plan to run on the Interstate in FL you need to cruise at 70 minimum. Even at 70 you are going to be impeding traffic.
lead69
hopeless car junkie
I beg to differ, it's all about the complete build. We had a 340 (yes a stock stroke 340) on the street with a 267 @.050 cam, 11.5 compression, ported iron x heads and a tunnel ram with 750s, idled at 1000-1100 and was very streetable. He also had the appropriate 4.56 gears to make it drive the way it should. You are giving advice based off your experience with one car that obviously wasn't fully optimized but coming across as if you have years of experience with multiple successful builds.
To the op Ken at Oregon cam is a smart man but I suspect he won't be around too much longer since he sold the place a while ago, Jim at racer Brown is also a smart man and if you give him the right input you will get the right cam.
lead69
hopeless car junkie
I will add there is no true definition of "streetable" just ask the real street outlaw guys. It really boils down to what a person feels comfortable with on the street. If you are going to build an engine a certain way then the drivetrain needs to follow it regardless or it will drive like crap. As far as tuning that is something very few are really good at and it makes all the difference but even the best tuners can't make up for a poor combination to start with.
j par
Well-hung Member
I beg to differ with your begging to differ LOL... Like you right now talking about other people's combinations I have worked on multiple different combinations and also multiple brands...
So you think 456 gears and a 267 duration is going to make this Op happy on the Florida 70 mph freeways? When he only goes to drag race 10% of the time and likely it will be less than that?...
You refer to my Duster as if it's the only car I've ever worked on LOL.. with its multitude of gear changes engine changes transmission changes I've had quite the little experience with that car in itself. The Power Wagon build I almost have done now has its stroker motor and its purpose and its gears transmission transfer case and so forth. Just dropped at 440 off at the machine shop planning on doing that soon well not too soon I can't afford that right now LOL..
Let's see in the machine shop right now is the motor for a customer's iron pig and that's just going to be a factory build. Now the 65 GTO has a great running 400 that we have dialed completely in right now but a 389 block is in the machine shop awaiting it's 454 stroker kit and the tripower is already done and waiting to go on top... The 72 Ford FE motor is already in place now we're just waiting on the cab to come back from paint and we'll break that in and get it running...
Just some current stuff I'm working on right now with customers and my own stuff...
Now Ken has sold out to Don's machine shop but he's still there giving advice...
And that's why I was saying also as you may be get the advice while the getting is good... As much as he was questioning my want for such a radical cam the first time around I was still a bit green and wanting to set the world on fire at the drag strip... But he gave me what I wanted and it was a lot of fun and yes everything was tuned in correctly.. the distributor curve was perfect the AF gauge was perfect the spark plugs were perfect everything was running optimal...
Now traction suspension and 4-speed knowledge we're lacking... I wish I would have had the money to chase all that stuff down but found drag racing to be too freaking hot and expensive...
Now the next time around I told Ken the characteristics of drivability on the street was still lots of performance and he had the cam re ground into something that is perfect for my needs...
I'm no guru just giving my experience with a multitude of vehicles...
Everyone's entitled to their opinion and you have yours and I have mine...
lead69
hopeless car junkie
Nowhere did I say what the op needs as I have no clue, as a matter of fact I said to make sure he discusses that with his cam guy (we agree on that but I think he needs to stick with Jim), you are the one telling him what he doesn't need. I simply said 256 @.050 is not a very big cam for a stroked small block that's being street driven. Your duster is the only thing that even remotely relates to the discussion here so unless you have had your hands in building multiple small block mopars in different configurations and drove/tuned/rode in them what other experience has any relevance?, snowmobiling?
j par
Well-hung Member
Well nothing like a little bench racing for a snowy day...Nowhere did I say what the op needs as I have no clue, as a matter of fact I said to make sure he discusses that with his cam guy, you are the one telling him what he doesn't need. I simply said 256 @.050 is not a very big cam for a stroked small block that's being street driven. Your duster is the only thing that even remotely relates to the discussion here so unless you have had your hands in building multiple small block mopars in different configurations and drove/tuned/rode in them what other experience has any relevance?, snowmobiling?
According to you and the other multitude of Internet tuning gurus I have the slowest stroker on the internet but on the other hand no one is willing to post their time slips?...
I'll post mine doing 120 at the quarter mile after you post yours doing more...???..
..
j par
Well-hung Member
Did I say what the op needs?..Nowhere did I say what the op needs as I have no clue, as a matter of fact I said to make sure he discusses that with his cam guy (we agree on that but I think he needs to stick with Jim), you are the one telling him what he doesn't need. I simply said 256 @.050 is not a very big cam for a stroked small block that's being street driven. Your duster is the only thing that even remotely relates to the discussion here so unless you have had your hands in building multiple small block mopars in different configurations and drove/tuned/rode in them what other experience has any relevance?, snowmobiling?
Usually I just give people my experience with the stuff that I've done...
I know in the 65 GTO with the torque of the 400 and the freeway gears it had taking out the Muncie and putting in the tkx 5-speed in it sure helped both ends... It's definitely just a driver with no drag strip intentions..
Aka .. a better combination for the intention...
j par
Well-hung Member
And crickets...Well nothing like a little bench racing for a snowy day...
According to you and the other multitude of Internet tuning gurus I have the slowest stroker on the internet but on the other hand no one is willing to post their time slips?...
I'll post mine doing 120 at the quarter mile after you post yours doing more...???..
...
roccodart440
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4.56 gears, which I run on a 90+% street car are great......if you have an OD. If you don't it is an around the city deal only, 4,400 at freeway speeds would be maddening and not good for the engine either.
The highway would actually make a big cam happy, especially assuming it's turning some R's. My car runs around 2,600@60 but if I wheel it 75+ down the interstate it loves it and is in the 3300RPM range. Smooth and happy. I've had modern car spin that at interstate speeds.
lead69
hopeless car junkie
No, just has no relevance to this thread lol.And crickets...
j par
Well-hung Member
LOL... But my snowmobile does...
..
j par
Well-hung Member
I think even like lead was saying it's up to the individual what streetable means to their comfort zone... Also the correct combination is undeniable as well but is also suited to one's purpose and comfort..
For me I've tried a couple few different combinations maybe four that I can think of and my comfort zone is liking the 355 gears and that's with 29 inch tall nitto 555's . 11.2 to 1 dual quad tunnel ram 4 speed.. like yours it seems to buzz down the freeway anywhere between 26 and 3K RPM... It hasn't any problem with that and stays almost too cool... With 22,000 BTUs of AC both in and out LOL...
One of these days when I feel the want I'm going to have to hit that hundred shot...
...
To the original question, I'd go with the 3.91 gears. My recently put together "retirement Dart" with a 400 BB and a lot smaller cam than mentioned, a TF also from Mr. 1966, has 3.91 gears, aftermarket axels, and about 25 1/2" M&H radials. It does the 2800 rpm on Hwy 18 driving 60mph to the track, and seems just fine. Here on the west side of the mountains, with the traffic congestion we have, there seems few opportunities to do much driving at 70mph, unless you're a 100 plus miles or so from the big cities.
I wouldn't think a cam as big as mentioned would really be that happy at much less rpm anyway, and since it's a small block, all the more suited for the discussed gears. Heck, I've even considered going to the 4.30s; hey it's a LB 3.38" stock stroke crank motor, sort of like a small block with a gland condition.
Sure it goes through some gas, but it's pump gas, not Sonoco Blue, and I'm not commuting every day on I-5 to work in the Dart. Really how much are you going to be driving it going to shows and the track now and then? Plan on driving to Cali sometime, slap the 3.23s back in.
I wouldn't think a cam as big as mentioned would really be that happy at much less rpm anyway, and since it's a small block, all the more suited for the discussed gears. Heck, I've even considered going to the 4.30s; hey it's a LB 3.38" stock stroke crank motor, sort of like a small block with a gland condition.
Sure it goes through some gas, but it's pump gas, not Sonoco Blue, and I'm not commuting every day on I-5 to work in the Dart. Really how much are you going to be driving it going to shows and the track now and then? Plan on driving to Cali sometime, slap the 3.23s back in.
I'm still listening to all opinions. I thought the cam sounded too big, that's why I asked for opinions from people with more experience than i have. Pump gas here is 92 max, soI told Jim I'm keeping thr compression down to 10.5 or 10.6 to 1. My TC is still open for debate, so more opinions are welcome. I'm not trying to start a fire with the members here; I'm looking to learn. Thanks to all. Keep 'em coming, please. Paul.
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