A833 no shift

1964 Valiant w/225, originally 3 on-the-tree. Now 1965 Barracuda A833 B&T trans swapped in.

I originally thought my swap meet 65 trans was the easiest conversion because I wouldn't have to mess with the driveshaft and 7-1/4. It took a couple years to collect all the parts like the /6 BH, floor hump, etc.

I came across a Hurst shifter at Carlisle in 2020 and the seller didn't know what it was from. I recognized it as possibly the special early "A" factory shifter because the shift tower angles forward to clear the floor cutout and seat so I bought it. I tried a later Hurst shifter from my stash and it did indeed clash with the floor cutout. My "new" Carlisle shifter fits perfectly so I took it apart, cleaned and reassembled it. The internals are different from the later ones due to the forward shift bias.

I rebuilt the bargain swap meet trans (first time) using a Brewer kit and after having to replace the main shaft, improved wider 1-2 shift fork, input bearing retainer, etc. ended up with more money in it than originally planned but oh well. It seemed to shift through the gears ok when it was laying on the floor in a big heavy lump.

The bellhousing run out checked out to be 0.0075 which is just within the FSM number of .008. I also replaced the pilot bushing. I had the 225 out for some minor issues and installed it all as a single unit.

Should be ok with factory parts right?
No, if the engine is running in neutral, and then try to engage any gear I cannot get it to go. Like something is blocked. I can barely get it in reverse with the engine running but there is a crunch.

With the engine OFF, I can shift through all 4 gears pretty easily.
I probably drove it a total of 15 miles always downshifting into first before totally stopping at a light or stop sign. Otherwise I have to turn engine off, engage 1st, and restart with clutch in. It shifts through the gears when driving but not very smoothly.

I checked the clutch departure through the inspection opening with feeler gages and it's about .05 inches.

I used the Joe Gibbs GL4 gear oil. I asked Jamie Passon at Carlisle and he said to use gear oil. FSM says to use ATF and that would be a quick change. Maybe first thing to try.

More info:
For the last year or so before the swap, it was getting extremely difficult to shift the old 3 speed. Really hard. Partially due to the clunky column shift. I drove the 320 miles to Carlisle with the 3 speed and had similar issues. I had put the floor hump, new carpeting and "new" bucket seats in but elected to stay with the old trans right up to crunch time before the trip. (Just ran out of time even with a couple 17 hr days.) This leads me to believe that it may be clutch or linkage related.

One deviation from stock is I installed a new 10" clutch when I got the car running 5 yrs ago just in case I went turbo. Other than that it's pretty much factory parts.

Unless I come up with something, I have no problem going back to a 9-1/4 clutch.

Getting close to cruise time and I want to move on from this.
Suggestions?

Clutch not releasing. Z- bar bushings in good shape? Correct pedal to z-bar rod?

What clutch kit did you install? Years ago I had a Hays borg/beck clutch and one of the 3 fingers on the pressure plate would back out of adjustment so the throw out bearing did not contact all 3 fingers equally. Had the same symptoms you mentioned. Progressively got harder to shift, and eventually would only shift through gears while not running. With motor running I could not get it into gear.

Sounds clutch related. I always run 90 wt gear oil. There always seems to be more wear with ATF fluid, but they will always last over 100,000 miles with it. ATF was for use in cold climates, then in all transmissions. I run 10 in clutches in mine, but they are rebuilt original ones. I have trust issues with a lot of new parts

Z bar bushings are perfect.

Forgot to mention that I modified the pedal ratio. Added length to the 5-1/4" so it's now 6" like later HP pedals and Herb Mccandless mod. Also had the FW ground last summer on a real surfacer. The guy only had to take off .010 to clean up.

10" clutch was sourced from RockAuto. Listed as 10" HD. Taxi and cop car service.

I laid the pressure plate on a flat surface and checked the finger height. IIRC, variance was less than 1/16". My helper that day used to work at a local clutch place and he thought it looked good. That clutch is practically the only thing carried over from the previous combo.

When I got the car it wasn't running and the old clutch was in pretty bad shape. I never drove it with a 9-1/4" clutch.

Now that I think of it, it wasn't too bad until I made some runs on a drag strip 3 yrs ago. It started getting worse each pass. Best of 18.51 with the clunky column shifter. Just wouldn't shift at higher rpms. Went downhill from that point on.

KosmicKuda said:

1964 Valiant w/225, originally 3 on-the-tree. Now 1965 Barracuda A833 B&T trans swapped in.

I originally thought my swap meet 65 trans was the easiest conversion because I wouldn't have to mess with the driveshaft and 7-1/4. It took a couple years to collect all the parts like the /6 BH, floor hump, etc.

I came across a Hurst shifter at Carlisle in 2020 and the seller didn't know what it was from. I recognized it as possibly the special early "A" factory shifter because the shift tower angles forward to clear the floor cutout and seat so I bought it. I tried a later Hurst shifter from my stash and it did indeed clash with the floor cutout. My "new" Carlisle shifter fits perfectly so I took it apart, cleaned and reassembled it. The internals are different from the later ones due to the forward shift bias.

I rebuilt the bargain swap meet trans (first time) using a Brewer kit and after having to replace the main shaft, improved wider 1-2 shift fork, input bearing retainer, etc. ended up with more money in it than originally planned but oh well. It seemed to shift through the gears ok when it was laying on the floor in a big heavy lump.

The bellhousing run out checked out to be 0.0075 which is just within the FSM number of .008. I also replaced the pilot bushing. I had the 225 out for some minor issues and installed it all as a single unit.

Should be ok with factory parts right?
No, if the engine is running in neutral, and then try to engage any gear I cannot get it to go. Like something is blocked. I can barely get it in reverse with the engine running but there is a crunch.

With the engine OFF, I can shift through all 4 gears pretty easily.
I probably drove it a total of 15 miles always downshifting into first before totally stopping at a light or stop sign. Otherwise I have to turn engine off, engage 1st, and restart with clutch in. It shifts through the gears when driving but not very smoothly.

I checked the clutch departure through the inspection opening with feeler gages and it's about .05 inches.

I used the Joe Gibbs GL4 gear oil. I asked Jamie Passon at Carlisle and he said to use gear oil. FSM says to use ATF and that would be a quick change. Maybe first thing to try.

More info:
For the last year or so before the swap, it was getting extremely difficult to shift the old 3 speed. Really hard. Partially due to the clunky column shift. I drove the 320 miles to Carlisle with the 3 speed and had similar issues. I had put the floor hump, new carpeting and "new" bucket seats in but elected to stay with the old trans right up to crunch time before the trip. (Just ran out of time even with a couple 17 hr days.) This leads me to believe that it may be clutch or linkage related.

One deviation from stock is I installed a new 10" clutch when I got the car running 5 yrs ago just in case I went turbo. Other than that it's pretty much factory parts.

Unless I come up with something, I have no problem going back to a 9-1/4 clutch.

Getting close to cruise time and I want to move on from this.
Suggestions?

View attachment 1715903565

View attachment 1715903566

View attachment 1715903567

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As said ,sounds clutch/linkage related. Try to take pretty much all the free play out. Just to test and see if that little extra disengagement helps. Possible pilot dragging (spinning) input shaft. Maybe too tight pilot bushing..?? Shaft not slowing down enough to shift..?? ATF can’t hurt either, not likely the problem but should help for sure..Good luck..Swingn’

How did you adjust the shifter linkage? Have you looked at the clutch fork while someone depresses the clutch pedal to assure proper clutch fork travel? If somehow you got some wrong parts, you may net be disengaging the clutch enough to get it in gear. Lastly, did you shift the transmission through the gears before you installed it?

Swingn’71 said:

As said ,sounds clutch/linkage related. Try to take pretty much all the free play out. Just to test and see if that little extra disengagement helps. Possible pilot dragging (spinning) input shaft. Maybe too tight pilot bushing..?? Shaft not slowing down enough to shift..?? ATF can’t hurt either, not likely the problem but should help for sure..Good luck..Swingn’

Click to expand...

I've had this happen with a tight pilot bushing. Bushing inner diameter closed up while pounding it in. Just enough that it drug on the input shaft making shifting difficult.

if you went to the bigger clutch you must have went to a different bell. What fork did you use. There are different lengths. Also there are different pin spreads on some peddles. Most peddles have a 5 1/4 Inch pin spread. and some are 6 Inch. The 6 inch would give you a better disc release.

1....THERE CAN BE defective clutches. In my lifetime, I've run into THREE that I know of
2.....Pilot bushing interference
3.....Clutch not releasing, bent, broken, cracked, flexing linkage, wrong linkage causing leverage/ movement range issues.
4.....Disc issues, AKA in backwards oddball hub, etc.

You likely need two people, and access to the bottom of the bell with a feeler gauge so you can tell if the pp is releasing

Swingn’71 said:

As said ,sounds clutch/linkage related. Try to take pretty much all the free play out. Just to test and see if that little extra disengagement helps. Possible pilot dragging (spinning) input shaft. Maybe too tight pilot bushing..?? Shaft not slowing down enough to shift..?? ATF can’t hurt either, not likely the problem but should help for sure..Good luck..Swingn’

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The linkage is good. Adjusted with very little free play. As I said in post 4, modified pedal to 6" dimension.
After several thousand miles with 3 speed, original Z-bar had fatigued and cracked where the lower lever arm was welded to it. The round tubing actually cracked and the arm had rotated resulting in even less rotation. Dan Brewer said it's a known problem with the earlier Z-bars so I bought a reconditioned one from him. Using the heavier 10" clutch exacerbated the problem.

I replaced the pilot bushing when I went to the 4 speed . IIRC, the uninstalled bronze bushing measured .754. After pressing it in, it very well could be down to .752. Pretty tight in my opinion. The FSM says to use the factory tool when installing and that it will properly size the ID. But I could find no reference to what the final dimension should be. It very well could be that the input shaft is spinning and not coming to rest. I tried to find some kind of reamer but had no luck.

RustyRatRod said:

How did you adjust the shifter linkage? Have you looked at the clutch fork while someone depresses the clutch pedal to assure proper clutch fork travel? If somehow you got some wrong parts, you may net be disengaging the clutch enough to get it in gear. Lastly, did you shift the transmission through the gears before you installed it?

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Shifter linkage is adjusted perfectly.

With factory parts I shouldn't have problems. Only variance was going to 10" clutch.

Trans shifted fine and still does in the car as long as the engine is off.

Oldmanmopar said:

if you went to the bigger clutch you must have went to a different bell. What fork did you use. There are different lengths. Also there are different pin spreads on some peddles. Most peddles have a 5 1/4 Inch pin spread. and some are 6 Inch. The 6 inch would give you a better disc release.

Click to expand...

It took me a couple years to source the parts before I started. The BH is a factory cast iron unit I bought from Brewers. The casting number matches one of the ones listed in the Slantsix site 4 speed article. Same article also says 3 speed fork and inspection cover interchange.

In post 4 I said clutch pedal was modified to 6" pin dimension.

67Dart273 said:

1....THERE CAN BE defective clutches. In my lifetime, I've run into THREE that I know of
2.....Pilot bushing interference
3.....Clutch not releasing, bent, broken, cracked, flexing linkage, wrong linkage causing leverage/ movement range issues.
4.....Disc issues, AKA in backwards oddball hub, etc.

You likely need two people, and access to the bottom of the bell with a feeler gauge so you can tell if the pp is releasing

Click to expand...

1. Possibly a bad clutch.
2. I agree and I'll check. But pretty much had same issue as time went on with the 3 speed in it. That was with a WELL worn pilot bushing before I changed it.
3. I've looked at clutch departure through the inspection port. Measured .05 with feeler gages as stated in first post.
4. Parts are installed correctly.
******
I'll most likely pull the trans and "hone" the pilot bushing a little.
I think I'll get another clutch and try it. Not too expensive on Rockauto.
I'll stay with the GL4 gear oil for now. I can always exchange it for ATF later.

Could be a couple weeks. In the mean time, I have an appointment with an orthopedic surgeon on the 26th. I need surgery on my right hand. I used to tell people I've been converting my old iron to manual transmissions and just my luck I'll probably develop some physical ailment that won't let me shift.

KosmicKuda said:

Shifter linkage is adjusted perfectly.

With factory parts I shouldn't have problems. Only variance was going to 10" clutch.

Trans shifted fine and still does in the car as long as the engine is off.

Click to expand...

You have a clutch engagement issue, I believe.

KosmicKuda said:

Shifter linkage is adjusted perfectly.

With factory parts I shouldn't have problems. Only variance was going to 10" clutch.

Trans shifted fine and still does in the car as long as the engine is off.

Click to expand...

Double check the clutch disc is in the correct way. Putting it in backwards will cause what you're describing and yes, they will fit backwards.

My original plan was to convert from 3 speed to 4 speed as economically as possible using that swap meet 65 trans with factory parts retaining the B&T. Ha! Ended up putting more $ into bargain trans than expected. Factory hump and BH were not cheap.
If I had to do it over again, I'd go T5.

For what its worth:
Original 3 spd aluminum BH weighs 9 lbs.
Cast iron 4 spd BH 24 lbs.
Original 3 spd trans 59 lbs.
4 spd B&T trans 113lbs.
Gained 69 lbs.
3 speed steering column and linkage vs 4 spd shifter and column close to a wash.
Didn't weigh the buckets vs. bench seat but more weight added.
Maybe 100 lbs total weight gain.

>Put it in second gear, then start the car with the pedal depressed.
If the car creeps, the disc is dragging
If it is hard to pull the stick back into neutral, same answer.
>With engine running, clutch depressed, try shifting into reverse.
If it grinds, the cluster is spinning. Wait 5 seconds and try again; if still grinds, same answer.
>With the engine running, depress the clutch and put some pressure on the stick as if to select Fourth gear; then shut the engine off. If it snicks into gear just as the engine is coming to a stop, the disc has been spinning.
> with the engine slow idling, get some guys to push you along at about 3.5 mph, then depress the clutch and try putting it into first gear. If it pops right in, the M/S is now turning at the right speed to synchronize with a spinning input gear.

For a spinning disc/input gear/cluster;
here are some possibilities;
> not enough Clutch departure; I recommend .080 or
> the disc is bent with respect to the hub, or it is wavy, or the PP finger heights are not all at the same height, or
> as mentioned the pilot bushing is tight, or
> you just have the wrong parts installed as to fork-length or Z-bar ratio or the Z-bar is not installed in the right plains. As to this last one, the Z-bar tube must be at ~90* to the center-line of the vehicle in plan view (from the top), and parallel to the ground when viewed from the front or rear. If it is not, it will lose ratio.
>Furthermore;
the fork-pushrod from the Z-bar to the Fork, must be about parallel to the center-line of the vehicle, and the angle going to the Z-bar should be approximately 90* to the fork.
>at rest, the fork must be close to the front of the window, and must Not hit the back of it with the pedal depressed. To change any of this, while all the parts appear to be correct, the fork pivot would need to be changed.
>The clutch-end Z-bar arm, should be traveling from just forward of plumb to just rearward of plumb.
> the Downrod coming from the pedals should be more or less centered in the firewall cutout, and at no time should it rub on the firewall.
> with the modified pedal-ratio, and the freeplay set to 1" or a lil less, it should only take about 70% pedal-travel to create adequate clutch departure.
Go get-um, lol

For what it's worth ;
all your geartrain bolts right into an Aluminum F-body box. The only hitch is the 5.125 retainer, and bigger input bearing.. But that can be solved. I weighed my long-tail but forget how light it was. I'll guess 85 pounds with alloy tail and sidecover.

EDIT:
transferred in from post #24
>if the transmission mounting face is not parallel to the face of the flywheel, then the centerline of the trans will not be on the same centerline as the crank. This will cause the clutch departure to be different at various locations. Therefore you may measure it as adequate in one place, whereas it may not be so, in all places.

>The Z-bar has to be immobilized from moving transversely. There is supposed to be a wire-clip on one end, to engage the nylon bushing halves and positively locate the tube, on the bushing, on the ball. IIRC it is on the outboard end. You can see one of the holes in the pic you posted. just "forward" of the "tear"in the tube.
If the Z-bar is allowed to shift sideways, the ratio will be reduced, and take departure with it. However, when it shifts, the downrod will eventually stop it by rubbing on the edge of the hole in the firewall. When it rubs it makes a peculiar noise, thus signalling you that something is wrong.

I had basically the same problem, but my clutch wouldn't disengage after everything warmed up.

* The rod between the clutch pedal and Z bar was installed backwards. The bends in the bar were facing the wrong side so the bar was not centered in the firewall opening.

* The Z bar ball that attaches to the bell housing was loose where the stud attached to the mounting plate and wobbled under pressure.

* The Z bar arm to the rod that went to the clutch fork was bent. (pic)

* The input shaft was binding on the pilot bushing to the point that the end of the input shaft became discolored. (pic)

Good luck!!

Thanks for the advice AJ and Duggie! I'll do some testing when I visit the car later today or tomorrow.

I took it around the block about a week ago and noticed that it does creep when in gear with the clutch in. Car actually moves very slowly.
I'm leaning towards a dragging input shaft/pilot bushing as a possibility.

The one common item carried over from the 3 speed to the 4 speed is the 10" clutch! It was very hard to shift the 3 speed and difficult to get into first gear too.

Does anyone know the exact I.D. of an early (1964) /6 crank register? @Charrlie_S

If I could find a roller bearing that would fit, I'd be very happy with that. I'm pretty sure the later Magnum engine truck bearing won't work.

Picture is the fatigued original 1964 z-bar and 64-65 shifter vs. regular Hurst. The early shifter tower angle and internals are different than a later one.
I have a video of the clutch linkage in action that I can directly send someone if interested but I'll post current pictures later.

That fatigued Z-bar, - I find a piece of pipe (or washer) that slips over the shaft and cut a piece to sleeve the shaft ends.
The z-bars often split the end with a HDuty clutch .

I would do this so far as pilot which will also give you a chance to look over the clutch disc. Pull trans, clutch, and RE install gearbox with no clutch. Now you can put turn the shaft (with a little grease in pilot) and evaluate how easily the shaft turns, "if it will"

When I was working through my shift issues, someone mentioned a pilot 'bearing' conversion kit. I replaced the brass bushing and aligned the bellhousing using offset alignment pins even though the original straight pins were within factory tolerances.

I'd get a new Z bar, pilot bushing, and clutch from Brewers. Dial in the bellhousing alignment while you have it apart. Also check if the input shaft is straight while the trans is out.

I'd be willing to bet that your problem will eventually be traced to lack of adequate clutch departure; due to one or more of the previously listed reasons..

Additional reasons added to post #17

Check crankshaft end play, if your input shaft is bound up in the pilot bearing, or if the face of the bell housing is off(not parallel to the flywheel), then the crank will be thrust forward and it will have no float, it should move forward and rearward with little effort, if it springs back, or won’t move at all, do not run the engine, it will wipe out your thrust surfaces on the crank.