Need help from the suspension gurus here!

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'68cuda416 said:
Isn't this one of Tory's front ends?
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Yes it is, but I want to make it clear that he has supplied me with a quality kit and he is fantastic to work with. I've spoken with him about this and he is working on a solution. However, I wanted to seek advice in this forum in order to get a near term possible solution that will help.
 
Les Gibson said:
Yes it is, but I want to make it clear that he has supplied me with a quality kit and he is fantastic to work with. I've spoken with him about this and he is working on a solution. However, I wanted to seek advice in this forum in order to get a near term possible solution that will help.
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My point for asking is that I run the same front end although with 12" springs, as per Tory's suggestion and also Menscer Motorsports D/A shocks all the way around and also changed to 4.88's which I may or may not keep in there but point being after some cell phone video analysis and some shock adjustment's the car got working good, albeit too good as my last pass in it really came up on me and the landing was harmful to some parts. Tory is a great guy and is more than willing to help and or do whatever it takes after the sale.
 
'68cuda416 said:
My point for asking is that I run the same front end although with 12" springs, as per Tory's suggestion and also Menscer Motorsports D/A shocks all the way around and also changed to 4.88's which I may or may not keep in there but point being after some cell phone video analysis and some shock adjustment's the car got working good, albeit too good as my last pass in it really came up on me and the landing was harmful to some parts. Tory is a great guy and is more than willing to help and or do whatever it takes after the sale.
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I agree 100%! He's making up a pair of upper shock extensions for me, and I think I'll look into getting a pair of 12" springs as well.
 
Les Gibson said:
Greetings from Maine where if you ain't freezin, you're getting eaten alive by black flies!

Need some help concerning what is wrong with my suspension.

Over the winter I removed all of the OEM front suspension, torsion bars and K-member. Replaced it with a tubular K-member, upper and lower control arms, new rack & pinion and AFCO single adjustable coil-over shocks. All components installed very easily. Did a level and string alignment (which seems very close). Set the ride height to what I had with the stock stuff and the AFCOs to their recommended starting adjustment point. Went to the track with some great expectations and...... not what I expected.

The problem is I am getting no front end lift and spinning off the line where before I made the change the car did great weight transfer and hooked good. My rear suspension is a standard ladder bar/coil-over set up but has ancient Comp Engineering single adjustable coil overs which still function as they should. These were set to full loose (adjuster knob full counter-clockwise on the 'clicks') as that seemed to be what the car liked with the stock front. I didn't change anything on the rear suspension. I have progressively set the AFCO's to full loose on the adjustment knob with no change to front rise or weight transfer. This past weekend at Winterport Dragway a friend of mine watched the car launch off the line during my first two time runs, and suggested a change to my burnout routine, which helped a lot. My 60' times got closer to being what they were before the change with a 1.46, and three 1.48 in a row. With the stock front suspension my 60' times were usually between 1.39 to 1.42. My ET/MPH (1/8) got closer to normal with a 6.46 at 106. My friend said the rear tires would hook initially when I released the transbrake, but then spin for about half a car length and then hook again, but with no front lift.

Suspension stuff is like voodoo magic to me. Does anyone have any insight as to what the issue might be? I double checked that everything in the front suspension moves freely and that nothing is binding up. My car is a 72 Dart, weighs 2880 with me in it. Bored/stroked 360 (383 CI). 14:1 comp, W2 Econo heads with some mild race prep, comp cams solid roller cam (gross lift .654 intake, .655 exhaust, duration at .050 intake 269, exhaust 276, installed at 106 intake centerline) Eldebrock W2 Victor, Holley 2 circuit 1050 Dominator, 9 inch Dynamic converter with approx 5K stall, 727 with reverse manual valve body with brake, D60 with 5:13 gear, launching off the brake at 3800.
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mine did the same thing , went from 500# springs to 300# springs , still no rise , then to 250# springs , are 12'' shocks , even changes to new shocks , havent been back yet -what springs are you running ?
 
Les Gibson said:
I agree 100%! He's making up a pair of upper shock extensions for me, and I think I'll look into getting a pair of 12" springs as well.
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From what I just read as I have never owned a set of single adjustable shocks......but it seems they only control extension or rebound, whichever term you prefer, you need to be able to control the compression aspect which will help keep the tire stuck instead of getting initially hit and then bouncing back up off the track which I suspect is what is happening. I also wouldn't get all hung up on front end travel too much as it seems with these newer coil over systems there is far less travel than with a stock front suspension setup and to be honest the guys down at Menscer flat out told me you don't need all that travel and also that wheelie type action to get pitch rotation and weight on the rear tires......it is accomplished mostly with really good shocks which you need to invest in a really good set for the rear at minimum.
 
famous bob said:
mine did the same thing , went from 500# springs to 300# springs , still no rise , then to 250# springs , are 12'' shocks , even changes to new shocks , havent been back yet -what springs are you running ?
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I currently run a 400# spring on mine and it works fine
 
famous bob said:
mine did the same thing , went from 500# springs to 300# springs , still no rise , then to 250# springs , are 12'' shocks , even changes to new shocks , havent been back yet -what springs are you running ?
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They are QA1 10HT250. Thinking of getting a pair of 12" springs.
 
Les Gibson said:
I had to put that spacer between the mount and the bumper otherwise the shock would bottom out before the control arm contacted the bumper.
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I had to send my front shocks back to Menscer as mine were topping out while driving on the street and it felt like I was a bobble head toy........they lengthened the shaft i'm assuming and all is fine now.
 
'68cuda416 said:
From what I just read as I have never owned a set of single adjustable shocks......but it seems they only control extension or rebound, whichever term you prefer, you need to be able to control the compression aspect which will help keep the tire stuck instead of getting initially hit and then bouncing back up off the track which I suspect is what is happening. I also wouldn't get all hung up on front end travel too much as it seems with these newer coil over systems there is far less travel than with a stock front suspension setup and to be honest the guys down at Menscer flat out told me you don't need all that travel and also that wheelie type action to get pitch rotation and weight on the rear tires......it is accomplished mostly with really good shocks which you need to invest in a really good set for the rear at minimum.
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I'll be investing in a good pair of shocks for the rear as soon as the budget allows. Just visited the Menscer website and they're expensive but I'm sure a high quality product.
 
I think you are getting hung up on front end travel when I can tell you mine does not rise like it did when I ran a torsion bar setup and in my opinion I would order up some rear D/A shocks as the first step to getting your car to work good and although there are differing opinions on front spring rates a call to Menscer with some info about your car, like weight etc. will be beneficial in my opinion.
 
Les Gibson said:
I'll be investing in a good pair of shocks for the rear as soon as the budget allows. Just visited the Menscer website and they're expensive but I'm sure a high quality product.
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Yes they are expensive but sometimes these type parts are the difference to getting a car to work exceptional versus just working ok. Just a FYI but I did run Vi King D/A shocks on the car before the Menscers and they were decent especially for the money. I don't know the details of your car so can't really say but converters and shocks are two items that the most money spent as can be afforded is wise money on a hot rod.
 
QA1 site says those are 125 lb/inch springs the torsion bars are 100 lbs/inch.(when new) So if that is accurate you lost a little stored energy. Doesn’t seem like a bunch though. If all the QA1 springs are 125 lbs/inch in that dia then the length matters in regards to gross suspension travel. So if you have a 9” spring, but you have enough travel that the spring reaches its resting/installed height That will dramatically slow suspension travel.
 
Whats the length of the spring at ride height? You took a ton of weight off the nose. You should have the exact opposite issue. It could be spinning quickly and not letting it transfer.
 
furrystump said:
QA1 site says those are 125 lb/inch springs the torsion bars are 100 lbs/inch.(when new) So if that is accurate you lost a little stored energy. Doesn’t seem like a bunch though. If all the QA1 springs are 125 lbs/inch in that dia then the length matters in regards to gross suspension travel. So if you have a 9” spring, but you have enough travel that the spring reaches its resting/installed height That will dramatically slow suspension travel.
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Those are a 250# spring
 
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Is the 250 lbs measured at the wheel? or some other way?
 
Your right, my bad. The 10H1250 was screwing me up. He has 10HT250.
 
So you went from 100 lbs/inch to 250 lbs/in. That is a significant drop in stored energy. I changed torsion bars from 1.19 IIRC? to the slant six bars. High 290’s lbs/inch to 100 lbs/inch. Went from no movement to full transfer of weight. With the big bars it just barely twisted the bar at all! It was a street car then. Also you took weight off the nose. I’ll bet that spring is barely compressed at all, requiring the tire to do all the lifting.
 
furrystump said:
So you went from 100 lbs/inch to 250 lbs/in. That is a significant drop in stored energy. I changed torsion bars from 1.19 IIRC? to the slant six bars. High 290’s lbs/inch to 100 lbs/inch. Went from no movement to full transfer of weight. With the big bars it just barely twisted the bar at all! It was a street car then. Also you took weight off the nose. I’ll bet that spring is barely compressed at all, requiring the tire to do all the lifting.
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I'm not an expert here so I could certainly be wrong but according to the guys at Menscer when I wanted to run a 250 lb spring he thought that to be ridiculous as that would probably compress the spring some with the weight of my car and upon launch would aid in a wheelie or similar movement which he said is not needed or even wanted especially when you have really good shocks......I currently run 400 lb springs and still managed to pull a significant wheelie but I have a lot of power along with 4.88's so there is that.
 
So Menscer wanted you to go stiffer than 250? They just want the spring to hold the car up to ride height with no energy in it. Yeah, there is a 9.4’s second ZL1 Camaro running in the class that has a good 500-600 hp on me and about the same nose weight. He’s running a stiff front spring, he doesn’t need any help getting it to transfer and the rate of transfer is within his shock tuning window. Each car is so individual.
 
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