The EFI myth

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Princess Valiant

A.K.A. Rainy Day Auto
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Why do a lot of people keep keep talking about efi being the king of reliable and will go anywhere.

A manual choke is the king of reliability..... the only part that could break is your cable which will never happen.

A dead efi computer or sensor on the side of the highway isn't my idea of reliable.

I have never had an issue with a manual choke since I started driving, dead cold morning, I get my motor started and running good. Hot summer afternoon after a hot soak, I still get it started and running good.

How is a computer getting its electronic hands involved in everything reliable, you don't know that computer, it could be a Optimus prime gone evil. :eek::eek:

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I kind of have to agree. Fuel Injection is nice. Very convenient, on NEWER cars, but when a carb is set-up & working as it should, they work excellent & have for many, many years. You just have to wait a little longer to get the engine "warmed-up". A lot of people these days want everything to be RIGHT NOW. F.I. is more efficient (supposedly) but I like carbs on cars that were built with them. Plus, if we get hit with a CME or other such anomaly, anything electronic will be useless. What's old technology (I.E., points & condenser ignition systems etc.) will be in use again, IF you have them.
 
I have both brand new Sniper and FiTech units still in the box and I am on several Sniper/FiTech forums. The problems with bad ECUs both right out of the box and dying Within days/weeks/months, faulty/dead sensors, RFI (usually owner’s/installer’s fault) far outnumber the success stories. I have taken precautions when constructing my engine compartment harness for possible RFI. That said I am concerned about installing one of them in my 273 Dart and it dying on my 400 mile trip to say the Nationals. If they were as reliable as modern FI systems, i wouldn’t worry. I wouldn’t hesitate to take our 29 year old 93 FI 3.9 Dakota anywhere - been rock solid since new with the FI. Anyway i am thinking maybe I should go with the Edlebrock i bought in 84 which never gave a lick of trouble. Just my musings concerning FI
 
After spending all that money on EFI you have to say it was worth it. The Coronet has 15000 miles and 6 years on the FiTech and I worry if something will go bad every trip. The newer restorations got a carb. On trips I take a new fuel pump and carb kit with me. I’ll get those running on the side of the road if I had to.
 
I have to agree with this, I too almost went the FI route, but something held me back. These aftermarket kits have not been refined like OEM stuff. Now, I will say, the conversions I have seen done do run very well, efficiency and performance are great. For me, as others have said, it is that nagging wonder in the back of my head, wondering when is it going to fail. I take several trips a year in the Dart, through a mountain area where for 2 hrs there is no phone service, sure enough, this is where it would fail.
This is the exact reason I have my MSD E-curve setup for sale, brand new. I have heard a few reliability issues with the boards in them. Again, the aftermarket doesn't seem to have electronics scienced out like OEM.
On my road trips, I carry a spare ignition module, voltage regulator, belt, electric impact, plugs, ballast resistor, etc. That way if something goes wrong, I at least have a fighting chance at getting myself going.
 
I have to agree with this, I too almost went the FI route, but something held me back. These aftermarket kits have not been refined like OEM stuff. Now, I will say, the conversions I have seen done do run very well, efficiency and performance are great. For me, as others have said, it is that nagging wonder in the back of my head, wondering when is it going to fail. I take several trips a year in the Dart, through a mountain area where for 2 hrs there is no phone service, sure enough, this is where it would fail.
This is the exact reason I have my MSD E-curve setup for sale, brand new. I have heard a few reliability issues with the boards in them. Again, the aftermarket doesn't seem to have electronics scienced out like OEM.
On my road trips, I carry a spare ignition module, voltage regulator, belt, electric impact, plugs, ballast resistor, etc. That way if something goes wrong, I at least have a fighting chance at getting myself going.

The OEM has thousands of hours of reliability testing behind them. Aftermarket does not have the resources to do much of anything.
 
The Sniper EFI on my ‘68 Coronet is stone dead reliable. I’ve had it for three years and have driven it thousands of miles without one hiccup. The idea that these things just randomly take a dump on the side of the road is nonsense. Install it “right”, work through the tuning and never lift a finger again.
 
I think it depends on what your talents and experiences are. For me, I did not want to try to jet carbs to adjust for altitude changes or even original tunes. No idea on how to begin doing that. Computers and programs are more my thing. I can input the requested parameters and look at datalogs and see if my settings are good. Now if you were to ask me what a carbureted engine "likes " for jetting or timing or anything else, I would not know what it likes. I don't understand, acceleration pumps, primaries, secondaries or cfm for ci.

So, we may be able to make a carb and choke reliable but without an O2 sensor and logging, how can you tell if you are efficient? just because it runs?
That is not what I am after. Quick question. How many new cars are made with carbs today? That is because most people do not know how to adjust them and EFI just works..... until it doesn't. But while it does, they are more efficient at reducing emissions and increasing fuel economy since the average garage mechanic never touches them. With a carb, people mess with them until they start. Albeit, not very well. If that is the only criteria, then carbs and chokes are more reliable.
 
That's why I have car/truck that is older than 1990. No computer nothing.
When the solar flairs take out all the computer control everything I'll be Mad Maxin' in my 63 !
 
That's why I have car/truck that is older than 1990. No computer nothing.
When the solar flairs take out all the computer control everything I'll be Mad Maxin' in my 63 !
Where are you going to go when the solar flares take out everything? You will not have any gas after one tank. :lol:
 
Have read recently , in several places that fuel injection can make the engine work smoothly, has a slight advantage in fuel mileage.
For maximum power though , the carb and is king, simple, and easy to fix. I almost got caught up in the FI craze, but changed my mind. Not to mention numerous posts about FI here and all over the net. I was looking for work a while back and interviewed at a vintage car garage. My first job was to figure out why 4 cars with aftermarket FI would not run properly. 2 wouldn't run at all. I did not take the job.
Yes , I know plenty of you have had success with FI. At this point I'm thinking that many buy FI for bragging rights or because it's new and "state of the art" and looks cool
 
The Sniper EFI on my ‘68 Coronet is stone dead reliable. I’ve had it for three years and have driven it thousands of miles without one hiccup. The idea that these things just randomly take a dump on the side of the road is nonsense. Install it “right”, work through the tuning and never lift a finger again.
Obviously you haven't read all the posts on the net about those who are desperately trying to get their FI to work.
 
EFI has no change on net peak power. NONE. Air and fuel in is power out. If anything EFI will make more power in the midrange and in general due to better fuel accuracy and immediate changes in throttle application, and a throttle body is guaranteed to flow more air with no annular boosters or venturi (which is, by definition, a restriction). Dial in that carb and then go drive up Longs peak and you'll see what I mean. Not much power when it's pig rich and fouling plugs.

EFI isn't about reliability, either. The carb is more mechanically simple but the carb also doesn't handle variations in temperature, air pressure/altitude, etc like EFI does. I've had more issues with flooded carbs and vapor lock than I've ever had any issues with EFI.

EFI was driven by emissions but that's NOT why we love it.

EFI and it's superior fuel control allows cool things like low tension rings and reduced fuel wash, which is why EFI motors last so much longer. Many 100k engines still have that factory cross hatch in it, and that's why so many late model engines are such great donors. Your oil changes can go further and your fuel economy does improve.

Is that carburetor cost savings over EFI cheaper than an engine rebuild?

Get your head out of the clouds (which is probably smog from those carbs), EFI is superior.

But I still love carbs more because I get to fingerbang all those adjustment screws and feel like I did something :)
 
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Obviously you haven't read all the posts on the net about those who are desperately trying to get their FI to work.

I have, it’s laughable. 99.999999% of these “issues” are operator error. Holley will tell you the same thing. Almost all of their returns end up having nothing wrong but for whatever reason people blame the equipment. There are real specific instructions about these systems that guys just can’t seem to grasp and they end up giving up because they think they know better or don’t trust what they are reading.

I will admit to having some difficulties with my system at first but every single time it was 100% self-inflicted due to poor wiring on my part - bad ground, connector stretched too tight and pulling apart the terminals, etc. Not one time did the equipment randomly “go bad” or “fail for no reason”.

Case in point. I recently helped a neighbor out with his EFI system that “wouldn’t run”. You should have seen the butchery and half-assed work he tried to get past me. His positive battery cable was literally hanging on by two strands of wire and he had random stuff spliced all over the place, no way he would have had success. He messed with it for a while and was ready to throw in the towel when all it took was better craftsmanship and attention to detail. Fixed the wiring and it fired up first try and ran better than it ever did with a carb.

I also think a lot of people tend to believe the advertising that it’s a 1-2-3 job and everything will be hunky-dory in a weekend. Maybe that’s true for some installs but generally it takes some amount of effort to get them to an optimal level. It’s the same with a carb., there’s usually some trial and error to get it running perfectly.

In my estimation it’s also best to get the peripheral equipment it was designed to be used with, especially the ignition. A large benefit of EFI is having the ability to control ignition timing. If you cheap out and try to make the system work with older ignition systems that don’t allow that feature you’re missing out on a major component of the conversion.

YRMV.
 
EFI has no change on net peak power. NONE. Air and fuel in is power out. If anything EFI well make more power in the midrange and in general due to better fuel accuracy and immediate changes in throttle application. Dial in that carb and then go drive up Longs peak and you'll see what I mean.

EFI isn't about reliability, either. The carb is more mechanically simple but the carb also doesn't handle variations in temperature, air pressure/altitude, etc like EFI does.

EFI was driven by emissions but that's NOT why we love it.

EFI and it's superior fuel control allows cool things like low tension rings and reduced fuel wash, which is why EFI motors last so much longer. Many 100k engines still have that factory cross hatch in it, and that's why so many late model engines are such great donors. Your oil changes can go further and your fuel economy does improve.

Is that carburetor cost savings over EFI cheaper than an engine rebuild?

Your post pretty much sums up my thoughts on EFI, though I'd mention one thing I've been a witness to. A very good friend of mine, and extremely successful stock/superstock racer, and builder, did back to back testing with various carbs, and FI Tech efi kit. Amazing to everyone the EFI bested all carbs for torque and HP on the dyno. He was clear to point out, the EFI was not run on self learn mode, he spent 2 days specifically mapping the points out, I don't suspect that is what most users will be doing, and wouldn't have the dyno to test. Before the nay sayers get chiming in, yes the carbs tested were optimized and extremely fine tuned also. I will look for the tests to show, but as I recall, it was a 440, tested with a six pack, a quick fuel 4150, then the FI Tech. Obviously between the six pack and others tests there was a manifold change.
 
So, we may be able to make a carb and choke reliable but without an O2 sensor and logging, how can you tell if you are efficient? just because it runs?
.

Hi Kent. I pretty much lean (no pun, LOL) towards EFI, but you actually CAN "log" and monitor carb functions. There are at least a couple of stand alone o2 sensor setups with log ability

EFI wasn't implemented for much of any other reason than the "Feds" required more and more emissions control, and the carbs were simply not "hackin" it. The terrible, awful vehicles of the mid 70's and early 80's....................Feedback carburetors, "lean burn" etc etc
 
I have two cars with FiTech systems installed. My Barracuda has a Weiand Tunnel Ram with the dual quad kit. These throttle body injection kits are, for the most part, carbs that you can tune digitally. Instead of changing jets, you adjust your AFR in a menu. Need more pump shot, go to the menu and adjust your accel pump settings. There is also timing control, which is a real benefit to these systems, which a lot of guys do not use (which is a mistake). The one difference I see between tuning a Carb and these FI kits is that when tuning my carb vehicles, I would monitor the vacuum readings - whereas these FI systems are monitoring MAP.

Having your car wiring in good to great condition is a MUST. Also, if you are a guy with your battery in the trunk - you need to still run certain wires ALL THE WAY BACK to the battery - not a junction point. Good, strong grounds in all the right places are also a must. I'd also recommend an in-tank fuel pump, and not an external.

Like I said, I have two cars with these throttle body injection systems (FiTech) on them - and they are are doing great. In fact, my Barracuda had a trouble-free 1500 mile trip in June. Ran great, got around 10-11 mpg with me driving like I didnt care about gas mileage. My '70 340 Dart still has a carb on it, and I probably won't change it over, because it has run fine for the 21 years it has been on the road.

One thing I really like about these systems is data logging. I can be out cruising, or at the strip, and hit a button on the controller, and it will log a a ton of data. I enjoy loading that data onto my computer and checking out all the data and referring back to my settings. I can also make tuning changes, and then compare the data results from previous tunes to see if I improved it or not.

You still have to read spark plugs though! The AFR readings are only an average of the cylinder bank that the o2 sensor is installed in the header collector. So, old-school spark plug reading is still a necessary tool if you are trying to squeeze every last bit out of the tune. The self-learning part of these systems can get you probably 90% there-especially with a engine using a mild cam. (wild cams with a lot of duration & overlap require more attention) Heck, most guys with carbs are running around on a tune that is probably only 75-80% optimized, and since carbs are very forgiving, they can't tell a difference.

Just my 2 cents, guys!
 
#1 reason for EFI: Today's gas sucks and nearly boils at room temperatures.
I have carb'd and injected vehicles. All my carbs suck, regardless of ethanol or not. After being parked hot, fuel boils away - even with an electric pump to refill the carb, the excess fuel in the engine causes long cranks and hard starts.
Letting a carb'd engine sit, or being stored for any length of time also always causes issues for me. Either with plugged passages, or failed parts/gaskets/seals. I've spent more in replacement carburetors and parts in the past 5 years than I have on oxygen sensors (none of my other sensors have ever failed). I have an offroad motorcycle that every season, regardless of how it's stored, needs the carburetor removed (no small feat!), cleaned, roto-rooted, and re-assembled. Even then it takes 20-30 mins of idling before it'll take throttle. Once it runs, it's great, most of the small running issues self-correct, but it can take several hours of running for fresh fuel to wash away the gunk of the fuel that's evaporated or corroded something. I still don't know how far a tank of fuel will take me on that bike, because I wind up spilling enough with every carb removal that I'm sure it has an impact. As a result, it doesn't get ridden near as much as it should.
Failed accelerator pumps and corrosion debris causing issues is a seasonal occurrence for me. It sucks! I hate smelling like fuel, and yet every one of my carb'd engines (and I have no less than a dozen on my property) requires some level of dismantling and poking about in order to make them run if they've sat more than a few days or a week. Doesn't even matter if I drain them first - without fuel present, condensation will cause corrosion issues and I'm still left smelling like gas after scrubbing and poking.
Just this weekend I had to fire up a carbureted mower at another property of ours. Been sitting with the fuel valve closed for 4 months - carb was run dry after the last use. Very little fuel in the tank, left in a conditioned space. Filled the tank with fresh gas, opened the valve and let the bowl refill. Took 1/2 an hour to get it started and running. My back and shoulder are wrecked from all the pulling. This mower has maybe 12 hrs on it - not even to it's first oil change. When used once a week, it starts on the first pull every time. But more than that, and the chance of success shrinks exponentially. I expect it will need a new carb by next year. Same with both of my 4 stroke weed-wackers this season. Serviced and stored dry for the winter. This spring, I spent hours getting them started and de-gunked.
At the other end of the spectrum, my EFI motorcycle fires right up (after replacing the battery), the EFI side-by-side fires right up, all my EFI cars (several of which are stored for the entire winter) fire right up. No faffing about with dumping fuel into the carb to loosen gunk and coax the thing back to life. No dealing with it popping and farting as it warms up. No dying at the stop light for the first few days as things start to work again.
This isn't the carburetor's fault, either - it's the fuel. It sucks. But apparently I can't get fuel that isn't garbage (even the ethanol free is garbage) so it doesn't matter.
Wherever possible I buy or convert to EFI because it just works. It doesn't leave my garage smelling like gas. It doesn't leave ME smelling like gas after having to dick around with it either. The worst failure I've had was an oxygen sensor that failed over the winter due to condensation. $40 and 30 mins later I was back on the road, and didn't smell like gas.
I think most people over-state the complexity of EFI. There's only a few sensors and they're all relatively cheap. TPS, CTS, MAP, IAT, and O2 - that's it. The cost for most of those is under $20, except the O2 sensor - and a well-tuned system could run without it. Not well, but well enough to get home or get to an auto parts store. When I have an issue with a carb'd engine, I have to check the pump, the bowls, the floats, the accelerator pump, choke, power valves or other diaphragm operated guts. Once I crack it open, I'm in for at least $20 in gaskets at some point - they'll re-seal long enough to get home, but will almost always start leaking shortly after. I also have to order those parts since few places carry them these days. I can get any of my EFI sensors same-day, but carb parts are a week away. Even then, I have a 50% chance of the ordered parts not being right for my carb, or being the wrong part marked as the right one... ugh.
My old edelbrock carb on my dart was replaced by a fitech. The edelbrock was OK so long as the engine was running, but I could never get it perfect either. I could either have a good cruise mix, or a good WOT mix, never both. So I could have an engine that wouldn't overheat on the freeway, or I could have an engine that didn't ping at WOT. I spent probably 200hrs tuning that thing even with some professional help. Never could get it good enough for my uses. It's not because carbs are impossible, but my combo at the time had some significant challenges (318, big cam, high stall, 3.91 gears, headers, living in the desert) and the edelbrock style carb was just not well suited to it. I could get close on the tune, but never 'right'. No matter how well it could have been tuned, there's no way to stop it boiling fuel. I had an airgap intake, .250" thick insulating spacer, 1" open aluminum spacer, and still the carb was too hot to touch when I shut it down and I could take the top off the carb and watch the fuel bubble and boil away. I could wait a minute, then take off my air cleaner and watch fuel vapor rise from the vents - no matter of tweaking the timing helped either, I literally tried everything from 5deg BTDC to fixed at 35. The fuel boiling was the final straw - having an engine that would wear the battery down trying to get fuel back into it meant I'd be walking at some point. I drove it less because I never trust it to restart after shutting it down, and would purposely only take it when I knew I'd have at least 1hr between shutdown and restart.
Within 2 weeks of installing my Fitech, I had a car that would start every time, would go WOT w/o leaning out, and would cruise all day and stay cool too. It may be more 'complex', but I drive it more now and don't worry about having to restart it while out and about. So far, the only issues have been user error. In both major cases, it was my own stupidity that caused the problem. In both cases I had high-current 12v+ wires that got shorted by the clutch linkage. One caused fuses to pop randomly while shifting. The second was such a drain that it melted a ground wire and would drop the voltage until the ECM shut off. Even a carburetor will fail to run given that kind of dumb.

All that said, I don't blame anyone who wants to keep their carburetors. They're initially cheaper, and if a person understands their function they can do great things with them. The type of fuel a person has available and the conditions they operate in may not make EFI as much of a 'requirement' as it is for some others. For me, it frees up time I'd rather be putting into other fixes/changes I want to make. I'll also be using the same edelbrock I took off my dart when I replace the 318 in my 4x4 because it won't have the big cam and high stall and other challenges the dart did when it wore the edel. But the 4x4 only gets used a dozen times a year, I can't justify the cost of EFI vs a carb I have on the shelf.. everything has it's place. EFI can be just as reliable, and to some of us are even simpler than a carburetor is. I find it easier to make tuning changes, even if knowing WHAT to change is more difficult than it is with a carb - it's a tradeoff.

I honestly don't think anyone can make any blanket statements about either system. Those that think they're going to drive their carb'd cars after the chinese nuke us are in for a rude awakening too, LOL.
 
Hi Kent. I pretty much lean (no pun, LOL) towards EFI, but you actually CAN "log" and monitor carb functions. There are at least a couple of stand alone o2 sensor setups with log ability

EFI wasn't implemented for much of any other reason than the "Feds" required more and more emissions control, and the carbs were simply not "hackin" it. The terrible, awful vehicles of the mid 70's and early 80's....................Feedback carburetors, "lean burn" etc etc

I agree Del. Emissions is what drove the push to EFI. With all the bad carb cars running around emissions was an issue. The cars were in bad tune and repair but they did run. Other than racers, who actually uses a o2 sensor to tune their cars? They absolutely should, but..... Almost like the government has to prevent us from harming ourselves and the environment as well.
 
#1 reason for EFI: Today's gas sucks and nearly boils at room temperatures.
I have carb'd and injected vehicles. All my carbs suck, regardless of ethanol or not. After being parked hot, fuel boils away - even with an electric pump to refill the carb, the excess fuel in the engine causes long cranks and hard starts.
Letting a carb'd engine sit, or being stored for any length of time also always causes issues for me. Either with plugged passages, or failed parts/gaskets/seals. I've spent more in replacement carburetors and parts in the past 5 years than I have on oxygen sensors (none of my other sensors have ever failed). I have an offroad motorcycle that every season, regardless of how it's stored, needs the carburetor removed (no small feat!), cleaned, roto-rooted, and re-assembled. Even then it takes 20-30 mins of idling before it'll take throttle. Once it runs, it's great, most of the small running issues self-correct, but it can take several hours of running for fresh fuel to wash away the gunk of the fuel that's evaporated or corroded something. I still don't know how far a tank of fuel will take me on that bike, because I wind up spilling enough with every carb removal that I'm sure it has an impact. As a result, it doesn't get ridden near as much as it should.
Failed accelerator pumps and corrosion debris causing issues is a seasonal occurrence for me. It sucks! I hate smelling like fuel, and yet every one of my carb'd engines (and I have no less than a dozen on my property) requires some level of dismantling and poking about in order to make them run if they've sat more than a few days or a week. Doesn't even matter if I drain them first - without fuel present, condensation will cause corrosion issues and I'm still left smelling like gas after scrubbing and poking.
Just this weekend I had to fire up a carbureted mower at another property of ours. Been sitting with the fuel valve closed for 4 months - carb was run dry after the last use. Very little fuel in the tank, left in a conditioned space. Filled the tank with fresh gas, opened the valve and let the bowl refill. Took 1/2 an hour to get it started and running. My back and shoulder are wrecked from all the pulling. This mower has maybe 12 hrs on it - not even to it's first oil change. When used once a week, it starts on the first pull every time. But more than that, and the chance of success shrinks exponentially. I expect it will need a new carb by next year. Same with both of my 4 stroke weed-wackers this season. Serviced and stored dry for the winter. This spring, I spent hours getting them started and de-gunked.
At the other end of the spectrum, my EFI motorcycle fires right up (after replacing the battery), the EFI side-by-side fires right up, all my EFI cars (several of which are stored for the entire winter) fire right up. No faffing about with dumping fuel into the carb to loosen gunk and coax the thing back to life. No dealing with it popping and farting as it warms up. No dying at the stop light for the first few days as things start to work again.
This isn't the carburetor's fault, either - it's the fuel. It sucks. But apparently I can't get fuel that isn't garbage (even the ethanol free is garbage) so it doesn't matter.
Wherever possible I buy or convert to EFI because it just works. It doesn't leave my garage smelling like gas. It doesn't leave ME smelling like gas after having to dick around with it either. The worst failure I've had was an oxygen sensor that failed over the winter due to condensation. $40 and 30 mins later I was back on the road, and didn't smell like gas.
I think most people over-state the complexity of EFI. There's only a few sensors and they're all relatively cheap. TPS, CTS, MAP, IAT, and O2 - that's it. The cost for most of those is under $20, except the O2 sensor - and a well-tuned system could run without it. Not well, but well enough to get home or get to an auto parts store. When I have an issue with a carb'd engine, I have to check the pump, the bowls, the floats, the accelerator pump, choke, power valves or other diaphragm operated guts. Once I crack it open, I'm in for at least $20 in gaskets at some point - they'll re-seal long enough to get home, but will almost always start leaking shortly after. I also have to order those parts since few places carry them these days. I can get any of my EFI sensors same-day, but carb parts are a week away. Even then, I have a 50% chance of the ordered parts not being right for my carb, or being the wrong part marked as the right one... ugh.
My old edelbrock carb on my dart was replaced by a fitech. The edelbrock was OK so long as the engine was running, but I could never get it perfect either. I could either have a good cruise mix, or a good WOT mix, never both. So I could have an engine that wouldn't overheat on the freeway, or I could have an engine that didn't ping at WOT. I spent probably 200hrs tuning that thing even with some professional help. Never could get it good enough for my uses. It's not because carbs are impossible, but my combo at the time had some significant challenges (318, big cam, high stall, 3.91 gears, headers, living in the desert) and the edelbrock style carb was just not well suited to it. I could get close on the tune, but never 'right'. No matter how well it could have been tuned, there's no way to stop it boiling fuel. I had an airgap intake, .250" thick insulating spacer, 1" open aluminum spacer, and still the carb was too hot to touch when I shut it down and I could take the top off the carb and watch the fuel bubble and boil away. I could wait a minute, then take off my air cleaner and watch fuel vapor rise from the vents - no matter of tweaking the timing helped either, I literally tried everything from 5deg BTDC to fixed at 35. The fuel boiling was the final straw - having an engine that would wear the battery down trying to get fuel back into it meant I'd be walking at some point. I drove it less because I never trust it to restart after shutting it down, and would purposely only take it when I knew I'd have at least 1hr between shutdown and restart.
Within 2 weeks of installing my Fitech, I had a car that would start every time, would go WOT w/o leaning out, and would cruise all day and stay cool too. It may be more 'complex', but I drive it more now and don't worry about having to restart it while out and about. So far, the only issues have been user error. In both major cases, it was my own stupidity that caused the problem. In both cases I had high-current 12v+ wires that got shorted by the clutch linkage. One caused fuses to pop randomly while shifting. The second was such a drain that it melted a ground wire and would drop the voltage until the ECM shut off. Even a carburetor will fail to run given that kind of dumb.

All that said, I don't blame anyone who wants to keep their carburetors. They're initially cheaper, and if a person understands their function they can do great things with them. The type of fuel a person has available and the conditions they operate in may not make EFI as much of a 'requirement' as it is for some others. For me, it frees up time I'd rather be putting into other fixes/changes I want to make. I'll also be using the same edelbrock I took off my dart when I replace the 318 in my 4x4 because it won't have the big cam and high stall and other challenges the dart did when it wore the edel. But the 4x4 only gets used a dozen times a year, I can't justify the cost of EFI vs a carb I have on the shelf.. everything has it's place. EFI can be just as reliable, and to some of us are even simpler than a carburetor is. I find it easier to make tuning changes, even if knowing WHAT to change is more difficult than it is with a carb - it's a tradeoff.

I honestly don't think anyone can make any blanket statements about either system. Those that think they're going to drive their carb'd cars after the chinese nuke us are in for a rude awakening too, LOL.

Couldn't have said it better, just didn't have the time to type all that.. Thanks for saving me the trouble... Of course no ones mind will be changed.. But you already knew that...
 
Couldn't have said it better, just didn't have the time to type all that.. Thanks for saving me the trouble... Of course no ones mind will be changed.. But you already knew that...

Thanks! Things are rarely black and white, so I usually wind up typing too much.

I'm OK with not changing minds - some folks know carbs better and are more than comfortable with them. Some folks grew up with EFI and know them better and are more comfortable with the electronics. That matters a bunch.
I go by the rule that whatever makes you drive it more is the right choice.
Some folks also enjoy the wrenching/tuning part a lot more - and want it to be a certain way, nothing wrong with that either.
Drag racers vs 4x4 vs road race, vs daily driver also all change the calculus.
As much as I love how my Fitech runs (now), I could see how it might not be the best for a bracket racer - but there are bracket racers who can make them work exactly how they want them to as well.
Lots of folks just can't justify the cost, or don't have the means to pay for an EFI system either - nothing wrong with that too.
If I had a consistent source of fuel that didn't evaporate at the hint of heat, I might even think differently too.

As far as power production, there's lots of nuance there too. Port fuel injection means less time for the fuel to atomize and cool the intake charge which can actually reduce power - engine masters actually did this test by moving where the fuel is injected from. But port efi allows intake manifold geometry and 'perfect' distribution - so is the power loss from the closer injection overcome by power gain from better distribution? Depends how bad the distribution was. At the same time, there are geometries which are 'impossible' for a carb that can way out-power any losses from moving the injector closer.
TBI is like an electronic carb - has lots of the same drawbacks, and some benefits, but should make equal power if all things are kept equal. Then again, computers allow us to do more with the timing curves and adjust for conditions that are less-than-perfect and so sometimes will be 'faster'. Those same abilities are also easy to screw up, and wind up slower too...
 
#1 reason for EFI: Today's gas sucks and nearly boils at room temperatures.
I have carb'd and injected vehicles. All my carbs suck, regardless of ethanol or not. After being parked hot, fuel boils away - even with an electric pump to refill the carb, the excess fuel in the engine causes long cranks and hard starts.
Letting a carb'd engine sit, or being stored for any length of time also always causes issues for me. Either with plugged passages, or failed parts/gaskets/seals. I've spent more in replacement carburetors and parts in the past 5 years than I have on oxygen sensors (none of my other sensors have ever failed). I have an offroad motorcycle that every season, regardless of how it's stored, needs the carburetor removed (no small feat!), cleaned, roto-rooted, and re-assembled. Even then it takes 20-30 mins of idling before it'll take throttle. Once it runs, it's great, most of the small running issues self-correct, but it can take several hours of running for fresh fuel to wash away the gunk of the fuel that's evaporated or corroded something. I still don't know how far a tank of fuel will take me on that bike, because I wind up spilling enough with every carb removal that I'm sure it has an impact. As a result, it doesn't get ridden near as much as it should.
Failed accelerator pumps and corrosion debris causing issues is a seasonal occurrence for me. It sucks! I hate smelling like fuel, and yet every one of my carb'd engines (and I have no less than a dozen on my property) requires some level of dismantling and poking about in order to make them run if they've sat more than a few days or a week. Doesn't even matter if I drain them first - without fuel present, condensation will cause corrosion issues and I'm still left smelling like gas after scrubbing and poking.
Just this weekend I had to fire up a carbureted mower at another property of ours. Been sitting with the fuel valve closed for 4 months - carb was run dry after the last use. Very little fuel in the tank, left in a conditioned space. Filled the tank with fresh gas, opened the valve and let the bowl refill. Took 1/2 an hour to get it started and running. My back and shoulder are wrecked from all the pulling. This mower has maybe 12 hrs on it - not even to it's first oil change. When used once a week, it starts on the first pull every time. But more than that, and the chance of success shrinks exponentially. I expect it will need a new carb by next year. Same with both of my 4 stroke weed-wackers this season. Serviced and stored dry for the winter. This spring, I spent hours getting them started and de-gunked.
At the other end of the spectrum, my EFI motorcycle fires right up (after replacing the battery), the EFI side-by-side fires right up, all my EFI cars (several of which are stored for the entire winter) fire right up. No faffing about with dumping fuel into the carb to loosen gunk and coax the thing back to life. No dealing with it popping and farting as it warms up. No dying at the stop light for the first few days as things start to work again.
This isn't the carburetor's fault, either - it's the fuel. It sucks. But apparently I can't get fuel that isn't garbage (even the ethanol free is garbage) so it doesn't matter.
Wherever possible I buy or convert to EFI because it just works. It doesn't leave my garage smelling like gas. It doesn't leave ME smelling like gas after having to dick around with it either. The worst failure I've had was an oxygen sensor that failed over the winter due to condensation. $40 and 30 mins later I was back on the road, and didn't smell like gas.
I think most people over-state the complexity of EFI. There's only a few sensors and they're all relatively cheap. TPS, CTS, MAP, IAT, and O2 - that's it. The cost for most of those is under $20, except the O2 sensor - and a well-tuned system could run without it. Not well, but well enough to get home or get to an auto parts store. When I have an issue with a carb'd engine, I have to check the pump, the bowls, the floats, the accelerator pump, choke, power valves or other diaphragm operated guts. Once I crack it open, I'm in for at least $20 in gaskets at some point - they'll re-seal long enough to get home, but will almost always start leaking shortly after. I also have to order those parts since few places carry them these days. I can get any of my EFI sensors same-day, but carb parts are a week away. Even then, I have a 50% chance of the ordered parts not being right for my carb, or being the wrong part marked as the right one... ugh.
My old edelbrock carb on my dart was replaced by a fitech. The edelbrock was OK so long as the engine was running, but I could never get it perfect either. I could either have a good cruise mix, or a good WOT mix, never both. So I could have an engine that wouldn't overheat on the freeway, or I could have an engine that didn't ping at WOT. I spent probably 200hrs tuning that thing even with some professional help. Never could get it good enough for my uses. It's not because carbs are impossible, but my combo at the time had some significant challenges (318, big cam, high stall, 3.91 gears, headers, living in the desert) and the edelbrock style carb was just not well suited to it. I could get close on the tune, but never 'right'. No matter how well it could have been tuned, there's no way to stop it boiling fuel. I had an airgap intake, .250" thick insulating spacer, 1" open aluminum spacer, and still the carb was too hot to touch when I shut it down and I could take the top off the carb and watch the fuel bubble and boil away. I could wait a minute, then take off my air cleaner and watch fuel vapor rise from the vents - no matter of tweaking the timing helped either, I literally tried everything from 5deg BTDC to fixed at 35. The fuel boiling was the final straw - having an engine that would wear the battery down trying to get fuel back into it meant I'd be walking at some point. I drove it less because I never trust it to restart after shutting it down, and would purposely only take it when I knew I'd have at least 1hr between shutdown and restart.
Within 2 weeks of installing my Fitech, I had a car that would start every time, would go WOT w/o leaning out, and would cruise all day and stay cool too. It may be more 'complex', but I drive it more now and don't worry about having to restart it while out and about. So far, the only issues have been user error. In both major cases, it was my own stupidity that caused the problem. In both cases I had high-current 12v+ wires that got shorted by the clutch linkage. One caused fuses to pop randomly while shifting. The second was such a drain that it melted a ground wire and would drop the voltage until the ECM shut off. Even a carburetor will fail to run given that kind of dumb.

All that said, I don't blame anyone who wants to keep their carburetors. They're initially cheaper, and if a person understands their function they can do great things with them. The type of fuel a person has available and the conditions they operate in may not make EFI as much of a 'requirement' as it is for some others. For me, it frees up time I'd rather be putting into other fixes/changes I want to make. I'll also be using the same edelbrock I took off my dart when I replace the 318 in my 4x4 because it won't have the big cam and high stall and other challenges the dart did when it wore the edel. But the 4x4 only gets used a dozen times a year, I can't justify the cost of EFI vs a carb I have on the shelf.. everything has it's place. EFI can be just as reliable, and to some of us are even simpler than a carburetor is. I find it easier to make tuning changes, even if knowing WHAT to change is more difficult than it is with a carb - it's a tradeoff.

I honestly don't think anyone can make any blanket statements about either system. Those that think they're going to drive their carb'd cars after the chinese nuke us are in for a rude awakening too, LOL.
Wow, I would be very frustrated with that also. Our gas in Canada must be a little more stable, although it isn't like the old gas here either, and we don't get the constant heat here like your part of the world.
I have quite a few small engines around also, the types that get infrequent use, lawnmowers, line trimmer, chain saw, leaf blower, snowmobiles, boats, etc. I have never experienced those starting difficulties after they sit. Had my Husqvarna saw out first time of the season last week, 4 pulls and it was running. As I type this, I wish to make clear, I do not dispute your comments, just sharing mine.

I have noticed stored gasoline turn yellow after not long periods of sitting, and agree, my Dart requires a bit of cranking after sitting for a week or more.

I'm sure you are doing this already, I have found dosing the fuel with Seafoam greatly helps stabilize stored fuels, and keeping fuel systems cleaner.

Great post, again I state, if I experienced those issues, I'd be beside myself also.
 
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