Coolant flow
I don't see what the big deal is. If your car (race car or street car) runs better at 160° then run it there. If it runs better at 180° with no issues, run it there. If you want to run it with a 195° thermostat and it doesn't detonate,vapor lock, or overheat, go for it.
100%.
Hey 72bluNblu, lighten up man. You have good and valuable input here and have a record here that shows that I think most would agree. I don’t believe I ever commented that you were wrong as it applies to the applications you mention? I’ll have to go back and reread this thread to see if I did. A little of this :poke:perhaps. I can’t help myself in some cases, must have triggered me, fingers get carried away, my bad.
^^^^This quote and others like it is where I have a problem. I don’t think I ever referred to anything besides my opinion as “dumb” or wrong (I can be opinionated just like anyone else) and I’m not an old drag racer chiming in either.
I’m a street/strip guy that’s gotten back into the hobby after a long hiatus. I’ve dealt with Mopar cooling issues since 1983. Daily drivers, performance street rides, pu’s and street/strip Mopars. I have 6 vehicles currently that are in all those above applications I just mentioned. In this particular thread my angle is street/strip and strip. I work on my van tuning to improve every area of ET and MPH period. Everything. To go faster and quicker, AND still retain some Street ability.
I don’t hang here to make enemies or fight battles. As much as I hate the phrase...but, It’s all good on my end.
:)
If you feel like collateral damage, I understand. You may not have said "anything besides your opinion is dumb", but, folks in this thread have definitely said worse. So I get it, you may have gotten lumped in a bit.
My point in all of this is that application absolutely matters. What you would do for a pro stock car, for a strip only car, for a street/strip car, and for a commuter are all different things.
I've been driving classics my entire life. I daily drove a '56 Austin Healey 100 for years, so, I've dealt with cooling issues. My focus has always been street driving and lots of it, with autoX and road course work on the side. And yeah, those tunes are different than street/strip, and different again than strip only cars.
I have been doing and PROVING cooler engine temperatures make more power and run better. I learn new things every day, and I prove things out every day.
To be polite, you can't prove anything without providing evidence. You have provided
ZERO evidence. None. So let's see all those dyno pulls with the same engine at different temperatures and tunes. And then let's see the videos of it
on the street with those different tunes to prove the driveabilty stayed the same. That's proof. Yes, colder air charges make more power- that's the theory. When you've been driving for an hour in stop and go traffic and it's 100°+ out, that theory doesn't mean much. Application matters.
Early on, I gave two opposing examples of coolant temperatures for STREET DRIVEN CARS. Evidently you skim over what I write to try and make your points (I do that occasionally so that is what it is).
Once example was Pro Stock (and some other eliminators) where they CHILL the engines down to very cold temperatures and when they finish a pass they are 120 degrees or less. Does it make more power? Hell yes, or they wouldn‘t do it. Does it make sense for a bracket car? Not even close. You don’t have time to chill the engine between rounds and you have to tow to the starting line and tow it back. That’s a royal PITA. So CHILLING an engine for most isn’t feasible. That doesn’t change the FACT that they would make more power. It in fact PROVES out the FACT that cooler engine temperatures make more power.
And yet, it also shows that application matters. Pro Stock has nothing to do with being a real street car either. Yeah, Pro-Stock runs at 100-120°, they chill their intakes, the whole bit. It's also racing where a thousandth of a second could make a difference, that's splitting it mighty fine. They also run 118 octane fuel, and how many miles do they go between engine tear downs? I thought we were talking about street cars? You're just showing all your reasoning is based on drag racing.
The other example I used was NASCAR Cup type engines. They are the other extreme. In order to run all day at WOT (or near WOT and certainly running the vast majority of the time at or above peak torque) and keep the engine temperature at say…180 it would be incredibly difficult to build a cooling system to dissipate that kind of heat for that long (and dealing with ambient temperatures at the track surface that can be 120 degrees or more) just due to the size of the equipment.
And to fit that HUGE heat exchanger (radiator) and the associated parts would absolutely KILL any aero package to the point the car wouldn’t be competitive. Not even close. So fitting the cooling system in the car AND not compromising the aero package (or limiting the compromise as best as can be done) is what matters.
So they deal with higher than optimal coolant temperatures and give up some power in order to gain (a big gain) in aerodynamics. It’s that simple really.
Yes, NASCAR runs their coolant around 300° because aerodynamics are the most important thing for them. They also manage to make plenty of horsepower that way, and tune accordingly. Kinda been my whole point, application matters.
And again, they tear their engines down every how many miles? And the street drivability is what now? Non existent.
What we are discussing falls between those two extremes.
Not really. Neither of your examples are cars that see one second of street time, and on the long end get a full engine teardown every 500 miles? Outside of being internal combustion engines, they're about as different as can be. And the rules of those classes dictate most of what those guys do. Time between races, aero requirements and standards, engine requirements and standards, etc, etc.
What the OEM does for coolant temperatures has ZERO to do with HORSEPOWER and has everything to do with fitting a cooling system in their box (chassis) and meeting ever increasing bullshit emissions standards. If they give up 30, 40 or even 50 horsepower they don’t give a **** because they know that 98% of what they sell will NEVER see WOT.
Claiming that the “new” Hemi has X coolant temperatures and extrapolating that to the discussion here is silly at best. What the OEM’s do (and the regulations they have to deal with) doesn’t affect what we do here.
Funny you think using NASCAR and Pro-Stock as examples are relevant, but an OEM engine that makes 700-800 hp and can be driven for 100k+ miles is somehow not. Neither of your examples are streetable in the least. But an 800 hp car you can drive off the lot and take grocery shopping? Yeah, that's relevant. And if Chrysler could run another 50 hp, it WOULD matter. Just like blaming it on emissions is a cop out, those ECU's and those cooling systems could absolutely run those cars colder than 200° and still pass everything exactly as they're built.
You can continue to argue for hotter coolant temperatures. I’m sure you will. But the evidence and PROOF is on my side.
Then let's see it. You haven't posted one thing that could be called evidence yet. Post your dyno pulls with your irrefutable evidence. You need data to provide proof, not just anecdotal stories.
Its sad you expect me to hold your hand and walk you through it.
If I do produce a video (probably 5 or 6 of them so its not one long video) you wouldn’t watch it anyway.
I have made several short videos of why to NOT lock out a distributor and guys STILL argue for that stupidity.
It’s the same with coolant temperatures, power valve timing, vacuum advance use and a host of other myths that have been perpetuated along by ignorance and sometimes malice.
Oh please. I don't expect you to do anything. You're the one that said it would be so easy to "fix" my car and make more power AND have better drivability. All I asked was "how" and you deliver a ration of crap. Which is what I expected, because none of this is new for you. You do the same thing every time, and every time you fail to deliver the "how".
You keep saying how simple this is, then won't explain it because it would take too long? What happened to "5 simple things"? If you're so sure you already know 5 things that would prove you right and make my car run colder and drive better too, just PM me. If you already know, it would take a lot less time than your last post did.
