250 HP Slant Six - No Turbo

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highwayhooligan

highwayhooligan

Glorified Welder
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Feb 22, 2009
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Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Yes, you read right.

I've got it set in my mind that I am going to build a 250 HP Slant. When I say 250 HP, you all think, "that's not too difficult with the right parts." That may be true. But when I say 250 HP, I mean rear-wheel horsepower.

Since I'm talking 250 HP at the rear wheels, mathmatically, I'm estimating that I'm going to lose 16-18% of engine HP through the drivetrain. Thus, at an 18% loss, I'm going to need 300 HP at the engine.

Sure, any guy with a fat wallet could make 300 HP easy, it's as simple as dropping by the local speed shop. But what about the average joe who has bills to pay? This might require some theoretical engineering. I'm not talking about nitrous.

I believe it's as simple as reverting back to the old school. I think it's time to get out the text book from the late '70's and early '80's. So if any of you want to drop hints, advice, experience or knowledge, do it here. I will appreciate the help.
 
I am told to bore to use 2.2 turbo fordged pistons, late 80's cast crank "lighter", 198 rods or after market lighter rods, good head work "mill, port, big valves, ect.",offey intake, holley 4bl, good cam, clifford header, manual steering, electric fan, good converter, gears, suspension, traction, =
low 13.00's Its being done. http://www.slantsix.org/ssrn/issues/ssrn52Nov08.pdf
 
Most of those slantsix.org guys are a bunch of stuck-up *** mongers. Especially that Dan guy. Just because he's a know-it-all doesn't give him the right to treat you like a f'ing idiot when you ask a question.

Everyone on FABO has been really cool. I've had a lot of questions answered and without that frowned upon reply.

Screw slantsix.org, they can keep their mess.
 
sounds like fun. im hoping mine will make decent power. maybe 200. thats what a stock 318 puts out so it should be enough to have fun with. sorry to hear you had a bad experience with dan. he has been very helpful with all my stupid questions. hehe.
 
I'm going to be keeping my eye on this thread. I'd like to get some HP out of my /6. Just dont really want to spend all of that money on a slant though. But I'll be keeping my eye on this anyway.
 
My entire goal is not to break the bank on this build. I'm starting with another slant engine so that I can continue driving my car while I build this engine, but I'm doing this on a low budget.

The engine I found cost me $150. I started the tear-down last night.
 
Well Highway I have the same idea as you. Going slow and steady. Bought my spare for 80.00,sweet talked a repair shop into some free head milling. I have started the exhaust porting yesterday. Being employed by a major transportation co. gets a few perks. Ill try to post some head pics tom.
 
I can't wait to see some good old secrets get told here by our / builders here
 
Here,s what came on my 66 Dart.Clifford 4 bbl. intake,clifford headders with dual exhaust,holley 4 bbl. all brand new and the PO had never got the car running.I went for my first 50 mile cruise today,it,s got a headder gasket leak.Back to work!(also Lokar throttle and kickdown)

66 dart 2.JPG


trim 088.jpg
 
im at 170hp, 200lbs at the rear wheel - that was with a worn tranny and rear.
 
highwayhooligan said:
Most of those slantsix.org guys are a bunch of stuck-up *** mongers. Especially that Dan guy. Just because he's a know-it-all doesn't give him the right to treat you like a f'ing idiot when you ask a question.

Everyone on FABO has been really cool. I've had a lot of questions answered and without that frowned upon reply.

Screw slantsix.org, they can keep their mess.
Click to expand...

Your "MOST" coment is wrong. If you have a problem with one individual do not group the others into it. If you could have looked past the post you have been offended by, you might have found the search function and been able to find the info with out dealing with him.

The head is where you will find the most power, it's made for the 170 so it is under sized for the 225. Like said before oversized valves and stronger springs and 100 thousanths off will put you at a nice HP range, Not what you are looking for i know but better than stock. The numbers you want are not easy to achive but it would be nice to see you get them!

TF
 
wicked/six said:
The numbers you want are not easy to achive but it would be nice to see you get them!

TF
Click to expand...

If it was easy to achieve it wouldn't be cool! :-D

From what I have read, the head is good for 13.00:01 compression. Of course I would have to go with a flat top piston.

I really don't want to get into a pissing match about slantsix.org. I just don't like the way they treat people over there. I don't know if it's ego related or if they just don't like newcomers. Either way, I'm not participating in their circus.
 
My .02

slantsix.org....can be a bit rough, but there is some knowlege over there. Try talking directly to DOC, Doug Dutra, Aggressive Ted, etc. If you want to avoid someone in particular ( I understand ), go ahead. I would still hang around and read up a bit, there quite a few there, that have knowledge on your general build....

With that being said, it is going to take a solid build to get to your goals.
The head will be the key. Portwork, oversize valves, etc are going to be critical. Reference HOT ROD's (or was it Car Craft?)build, I think they were close to your goal.
One area that has evolved since their builds is coatings. Piston skirt coating, thermal coating on piston tops, etc, have come a long way.

I would also spend some time working on windage control. I believe there is probably some gains to be had in oil control with the long crank, slanted engine design, etc. Some work in oil drainback, via drain tubes back to oil pan, crankshaft scraper, and knife edge modifications to crank itself, might lead to some HP savings.
 
If you think you're going to get 300 crank h.p. out of a slant without the benefit of the decades of engine building/racing experience over at .org, AND without breaking the bank, I wish you the absolute best of luck. You're going to need it.

I don't know what led you to believe that "most" of the folks at .org are "stuck up", but I strongly suspect you were just told something you didn't wanna hear, or just given a dose of reality. I'm sorry Dan hurt your feelings. I've been on .org for nearly 10 years, and he's hurt MY feelings on several occasions, too. But he, like the majority of the old-timers over there, are a PHENOMINAL wealth of valuable, real-world information. They are slant EXPERTS. I'm NOT one of those sources, BTW, I'm just a supporter who's gotten invaluable advice from the site over the years. But that's what you're gonna need to get the results you're looking for.

And you've gotten better support here at FABO? Really? I like this site as a source of general a-body info, but I've seen WAY more "you should just drop in a V-8" over here than any other Mopar site, even here in the so-called "slant" section.

A few of the guys with the knowledge you'll need to pull this off drop by FABO on occasion, but if you REALLY want to reach your goals, you'll swallow your pride and take advantage of all the free information and experience over at .org and just IGNORE the people who tick you off, as I do here, at .org, and other sites. Dan doesnt usually respond to the posts regarding race engines, anyway, and make no mistake, a 300 hp N/A slant WILL be a race engine, not a street engine as I define them.

Otherwise, I predict that, like so many others, you'll fall well short of your goal, and, in frustration, swap in a V-8. Which is too bad. But hot rodding slants is about more than just making the most horsepower. Folks either get that, or they don't. Time will tell if youre really cut out to be a slanter, but if so, you'll eventually learn just how few of us there really are. Because of that, we few need to stick together and get along. Again, good luck.
 
highwayhooligan said:
Most of those slantsix.org guys are a bunch of stuck-up *** mongers. Especially that Dan guy. Just because he's a know-it-all doesn't give him the right to treat you like a f'ing idiot when you ask a question.

Everyone on FABO has been really cool. I've had a lot of questions answered and without that frowned upon reply.

Screw slantsix.org, they can keep their mess.
Click to expand...

I was putting together a slant 6 duster for my son to use as a daily driver and found the SlantSix site. Dan sort of caught me off guard, I almost, and i stress ALMOST felt dumb but in the end the man hit a home run for me. My assessment is your not married or still a newly web because you haven't learn how to ignore someone or something while still having your Landry get done for you! I really would love to see you achieve your goal. And by the way, I have this 600hp Hemi duster sitting here and I'm tinkering with the slant, now my buddies call me "the Top Fuel Slant Six Mechanic! yuh!

Please keep us posted!!!!!! and good luck!
 
Hey Highway, I understand what you are saying.I am not a die hard slant guy, but have had the chance to hang out and race with a dozen of the of the slant gang. ALL the ones I have met on the East coast are great friendly people. They will help you anyway they can. I will go out on a limb here and say. I have not met the guy Dan on slant.org but he comes off as a know it all, my way is the only way, ***. I'm sure if you get to know him he is OK, But I'm not in a hurry to. Don't let one guy represent the rest of the slant people. The real slant racers don't spend endless hours on the computer. Go to a slant race and you will pleasantly be suprised. You have my word. Good luck on the build and have fun.
 
joesnow said:
I am told to bore to use 2.2 turbo fordged pistons, late 80's cast crank "lighter", 198 rods or after market lighter rods, good head work "mill, port, big valves, ect.",offey intake, holley 4bl, good cam, clifford header, manual steering, electric fan, good converter, gears, suspension, traction, =
low 13.00's Its being done. http://www.slantsix.org/ssrn/issues/ssrn52Nov08.pdf
Click to expand...

A long rod with a cast crank (and the cast crank block - they changed the main journal size) is going to need custom rods as 198 rods will not fit.

The Mopar Performance manuals once listed a 12 second slant six formula. I don't fully trust it, but with the vehicle weight they listed of 2350 lbs (major league gutting), that would mean probably around your horsepower target. Some of the key details:

4 barrel carburetor - most likely on a Clifford manifold. They suggested 390 cfm but that may be on the low side.
12:1 compression
A camshaft with a 284 degree advertised duration, 221 degrees at 0.050", 0.528" lift
Serious head porting with oversized valves
Rear gears steeper than 4.11:1, and a very high stall converter if running an automatic

And one they didn't mention: A lot of time spent dialing in the carb jetting, getting the ignition curve just right, and optimizing the head porting. Guys like Dr. Dodge at slantsix.org will be a bit help here. I know sometimes you can get sarcastic responses there - particularly if you stated you wanted 250 rear wheel horsepower, to stay naturally aspirated, and to do so cheaply. You're going to have to compromise on at least one of these goals, and some of the members on slantsix.org may be a bit less tactful about saying that.

(Although they're quite friendly compared to how some forums can react to newbie questions. Try asking "I found this turbo kit on eBay, is it a good buy?" on miataturbo.net. Who'da thunk a bunch of Miata drivers would react that way? :D)
 
MadScientistMat said:
going to need custom rods as 198 rods will not fit.
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Just as an FYI, they are working with K1 for a rod that will work in a cast motor. Currently there is a rod for the forged crank and the plan is to machine the rod to the narrower configuration. The rods are reasonable in price too.
 
Right now Doc is building a lightened crank long rod engine over on .org
I think it's a cast crank. He documents all his builds.
There is some special machining needed. It can be done.
There are also some group buys that happen now and then. Wiseco is supplying Rods and pistons for a long rod build. I hear the quality and support are good. From what I understand, the Erson group buy is still on for .org members.

Dan is in good humor right now, so peek back in. I don't think he's bitten anybody's head off for a couple weeks now! :lol: Once you get to know him, he's all right.

I'm not just a .org guy, I'm a moderator. I talk to Dan quite a bit. Not to worry. He's a really good guy.

If anybody gives you grief, you can always PM me.

CJ
 
Oh, by the way, my build is just shy of 250 HP at the crank on pump gas.

If my Stroker Hooptie can do it, I'll be you can get where you want to go!

CJ
 
In the end, I guess it would be unfair to group "everyone" on slantsix as assbags. I'm sure there are a lot of cool guys over there just hanging out for the occasional helpful advice.

I've always told people in my business, if you have a question, ask it! It's the only way you learn. If someone asks a really stupid question, I don't piss on their face and laugh, I answer their question. Sometimes the stupid questions lead into the real question the person wanted to ask anyway.

I asked 6 questions on the slantsix forum. All 6 questions were answered by Dan with comments such as: "if you read the factory service manual you would know that," or my personal favorite, "I'm not wasting my time answering that question." (I asked what the difference was between the Offenhauser and Clifford intakes.) Of course, this was a year or so ago, so maybe Dan is off the rag now.

The only reason I grouped everyone in with Dan was because they acted like his minions. Brainless followers who thought he was God, to scared to say otherwise and frightened that Dan might not answer one of their questions someday. Ole well. I just don't like people who can't think for themselves.

vynn3 said:
Otherwise, I predict that, like so many others, you'll fall well short of your goal, and, in frustration, swap in a V-8. Which is too bad. But hot rodding slants is about more than just making the most horsepower. Folks either get that, or they don't. Time will tell if youre really cut out to be a slanter, but if so, you'll eventually learn just how few of us there really are. Because of that, we few need to stick together and get along. Again, good luck.
Click to expand...

I predict that you'll be eating those words. You should go into motivational speaking. I'm almost embarrased that you posted on this thread. There are a handful of eager young people on this forum who are yearning for knowledge and your post simply put says, "it's too hard, give up now." Why not contribute to the thread if you behold some much powerful knowledge? Don't blab on about how slantsix is the cat's *** and then make a reply that flushes everything you just defended.

Nothing is impossible. Limitations are only set by the walls of your mind. If we did all the things we are capable of, we would literally astound ourselves.
 
Ceej said:
Oh, by the way, my build is just shy of 250 HP at the crank on pump gas.

If my Stroker Hooptie can do it, I'll be you can get where you want to go!

CJ
Click to expand...

That's freaking steller man! Have you ran it in the 1/4 yet? Just wondering what the times were???
 
pay attention Jr. their all tryin to give you helpful advice..........respect your elders.......they might be cranky when it comes to whippersnappers but just realize they don't say "WHATEVER" your gonna have to step up and be the man that their willing to share information with.we all meet guy's all the time with great BIG ideas and don't know nuthin but how to talk about those great BIG ideas....forget what will really work it becomes all about those great BIG ideas,These guys have done the stroking,boring,machining,porting and polishing and massaged these lil' jewels into fire breathing elephants. I know and old genius or two from my growing up........and from what I've seen the old cuss's will do anything to scare you off.......be that as it may they do it for a reason...their checkin your metal and if your metal aint no good then they'll be paddlin you down the river......look at the path and smooth it out before you walk it,you'll have to earn their respect before you get to far. J/M/O
 
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