Lucas Response To Zinc Additive

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67DARTGTCONV

67DARTGTCONV

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Here is a response to my question regading a Zinc additive.

Hi John;

Thank you for considering Lucas Oil Products. As for your question YES you should most defiantly be using a Zink additive. Zink is a high pressure additive that was recently removed from both synthetic and conventional oils. This was done because over prolonged usage it could harm your catalytic converter. Your 67 273 dodge dart and 68 390 ford F350 were not designed to run without Zink and you will risk cam failure or push rod failure. A full bottle of our TB-Zink Break-in Oil Additive should be added to every oil change. In a five quart application it will bring the Zink content to aprox 5200 PPM which is more than enough to protect your engine. Since Zink is a additional Lubricant in your oil it does not make sense that it would increase engine ware. As for synthetics Lucas TB-Zink is designed to be used with both synthetic and conventional oil. I have attached our Technical Data Sheet. Please disregard the part about not designed for passenger car use as this is referring to cars with Catalytic Converters and also the EPA does not want you putting Zink back into the oil so we have to say that.


http://www.lucasoil.ca/products/product.asp?id=67&cat=Automotive
 
67DARTGTCONV said:
Here is a response to my question regading a Zinc additive.

Hi John;

Thank you for considering Lucas Oil Products. As for your question YES you should most defiantly be using a Zink additive. Zink is a high pressure additive that was recently removed from both synthetic and conventional oils. This was done because over prolonged usage it could harm your catalytic converter. Your 67 273 dodge dart and 68 390 ford F350 were not designed to run without Zink and you will risk cam failure or push rod failure. A full bottle of our TB-Zink Break-in Oil Additive should be added to every oil change. In a five quart application it will bring the Zink content to aprox 5200 PPM which is more than enough to protect your engine. Since Zink is a additional Lubricant in your oil it does not make sense that it would increase engine ware. As for synthetics Lucas TB-Zink is designed to be used with both synthetic and conventional oil. I have attached our Technical Data Sheet. Please disregard the part about not designed for passenger car use as this is referring to cars with Catalytic Converters and also the EPA does not want you putting Zink back into the oil so we have to say that.


http://www.lucasoil.ca/products/product.asp?id=67&cat=Automotive
Click to expand...



Thanks for the post. I've been using the Lucas break in additive for a while now, and it's good to know that I am doing something right.
 
Hold on a sec, let's not swallow this sales pitch from Lucas quite so enthusiastically. Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time trusting technical information from someone who doesn't know how to spell a simple, easy word like Zinc. There's no "k" in it. I lose even more confidence when the genius from Lucas doesn't know the difference between "ware" and "wear". :roll:

But this isn't English class, so let's focus on the science of what we're trying to do here. 5200ppm is many times greater Zn concentration than needed, and more is not better. It's been well documented that a 0.10% to 0.12% concentration of Zn and P is optimal for flat-tappet engines, for example in SAE papers 770087, 831760, and 2004-01-2986 (these papers were published in 1977, 1983, and 2004, respectively, so the recommendation is not reduced for compliance with the latest super ultra low emission vehicle requirements).But, that data's old, and there's newer information that the ZDDP scare is even more exaggerated than the unleaded-gasoline scare or the Freon-12 scare: there is plenty of life after all three.

If you have determined to use a ZDDP additive anyhow, a whole bottle would be massive, huge overkill and a needless waste of money, not to mention the likelihood of screwing up the chemistry engineered into the motor oil —*take a look around; every time a petrochemist is asked about additives, they practically beg and plead with the public not to add anything because it usually doesn't help and it quite often makes things worse.

The Lucas rep states that a whole bottle of their magical moose milk should be used at each oil change to bring a 5-quart system to 5200ppm Zn. The moose milk comes in a 16oz bottle, which means if the Lucas rep is telling the truth*, the additive itself contains 39,600ppm Zn, or about 4%.

Here's the math: we're running ½qt (16oz) of Lucas moose milk plus 5qt of engine oil. That's 16 ounces of moose milk and 144 ounces of engine oil, or 11.1% moose milk and 88.9% engine oil. The engine oil by itself contains about 800ppm Zn, so we subtract 800 from 5200 and get 4400 coming from the 16 ounces of moose milk. 4400 divided by 11.1% gives us 39,600ppm (or 0.6336 oz) of Zn in a 16oz bottle of moose milk.

What we want to wind up with is between 1000ppm and 1200ppm of Zn in our crankcase, so let's say we want 1100ppm, or 0.11%. There's already 0.08% Zn in a quart of the latest SM engine oil (actually, most of them run a little on the high side, as it seems, but we'll use the 800 figure). In 5 quarts of SM engine oil, therefore, you've got 0.128 ounce of Zn. Therefore, you're a little under 0.05 ounce short of what you want.

You're holding in your hand a bottle of moose milk containing 0.6336 oz of Zn. That means you are holding a bottle containing just over twelve and a half doses of Zn. You would need to add just 1.25 oz of moose milk to a 5-quart fill of SM engine oil to have the optimal 1100ppm of Zn. That's 2.5 Tablespoons, folks, not a whole bottle!

* - Whether the Lucas rep is telling the truth is an open question. The company is known to make false claims which, if followed, will damage your engine. Link goes to a demonstration on bobistheoilguy.com , widely regarded as the go-to place for knowledge about engine oil and relatied matters.
 
Thanks 67dartgtcov and Slantsixdan. That's helpful. I've been using 1/3 bottle each oil change because I figured that an entire bottle of additive was too much but didn't do the math in any detail.

Good information guys! Thanks again...
 
I've also been adding about a half-bottle of Lucas additive to each oil change for my 318. I didn't know exactly how much was supplied/needed so from now on I guess I can use much less than that...
 
slantsixdan said:
Hold on a sec, let's not swallow this sales pitch from Lucas quite so enthusiastically. Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time trusting technical information from someone who doesn't know how to spell a simple, easy word like Zinc. There's no "k" in it. I lose even more confidence when the genius from Lucas doesn't know the difference between "ware" and "wear". :roll:

But this isn't English class, so let's focus on the science of what we're trying to do here. 5200ppm is many times greater Zn concentration than needed, and more is not better. It's been well documented that a 0.10% to 0.12% concentration of Zn and P is optimal for flat-tappet engines, for example in SAE papers 770087, 831760, and 2004-01-2986 (these papers were published in 1977, 1983, and 2004, respectively, so the recommendation is not reduced for compliance with the latest super ultra low emission vehicle requirements).But, that data's old, and there's newer information that the ZDDP scare is even more exaggerated than the unleaded-gasoline scare or the Freon-12 scare: there is plenty of life after all three.

If you have determined to use a ZDDP additive anyhow, a whole bottle would be massive, huge overkill and a needless waste of money, not to mention the likelihood of screwing up the chemistry engineered into the motor oil —*take a look around; every time a petrochemist is asked about additives, they practically beg and plead with the public not to add anything because it usually doesn't help and it quite often makes things worse.

The Lucas rep states that a whole bottle of their magical moose milk should be used at each oil change to bring a 5-quart system to 5200ppm Zn. The moose milk comes in a 16oz bottle, which means if the Lucas rep is telling the truth*, the additive itself contains 39,600ppm Zn, or about 4%.

Here's the math: we're running ½qt (16oz) of Lucas moose milk plus 5qt of engine oil. That's 16 ounces of moose milk and 144 ounces of engine oil, or 11.1% moose milk and 88.9% engine oil. The engine oil by itself contains about 800ppm Zn, so we subtract 800 from 5200 and get 4400 coming from the 16 ounces of moose milk. 4400 divided by 11.1% gives us 39,600ppm (or 0.6336 oz) of Zn in a 16oz bottle of moose milk.

What we want to wind up with is between 1000ppm and 1200ppm of Zn in our crankcase, so let's say we want 1100ppm, or 0.11%. There's already 0.08% Zn in a quart of the latest SM engine oil (actually, most of them run a little on the high side, as it seems, but we'll use the 800 figure). In 5 quarts of SM engine oil, therefore, you've got 0.128 ounce of Zn. Therefore, you're a little under 0.05 ounce short of what you want.

You're holding in your hand a bottle of moose milk containing 0.6336 oz of Zn. That means you are holding a bottle containing just over twelve and a half doses of Zn. You would need to add just 1.25 oz of moose milk to a 5-quart fill of SM engine oil to have the optimal 1100ppm of Zn. That's 2.5 Tablespoons, folks, not a whole bottle!

* - Whether the Lucas rep is telling the truth is an open question. The company is known to make false claims which, if followed, will damage your engine. Link goes to a demonstration on bobistheoilguy.com , widely regarded as the go-to place for knowledge about engine oil and relatied matters.
Click to expand...

I WAS WANDERING IF ANYBODY ELSE CAUGHT THAT (K). UNLESS IT WAS A PERSONAL RESPONSE FROM A REAL PERSON THAT JUST MISPELLED IT. I KNOW I HAVN'T SEEN ANY MISSPELLED WORDS ON THIS FORUM.
 
Thanks for the responses

My F350/ 390 wiped out a cam and set of lifters during the summer and now of course I do not want to go down that path again.

5200 PPM does seen high. Is about 1500 PPM thats all reqiured?

Does not Zinc included oil blends have about 1200 PPM per quart? So 5 quarts / liters have a total of about 6000 ppm in total during each oil change??

Damm thought I had an answer to this.
 
67DARTGTCONV said:
Does not Zinc included oil blends have about 1200 PPM per quart? So 5 quarts / liters have a total of about 6000 ppm in total during each oil change??
Click to expand...

No. If you do the math, say one quart = 1 million parts, so one quart contains 1200ppm. Now multiply 5 quarts, that's 5 million "parts", and each quart contains 1200 parts, to times 5 =6000 parts/ but divided into 5 million, that still equals 1200ppm.

1=1200/1000000 = .0012 ratio Zinc to Oil
x5
5=6000/5000000 = .0012 ratio Zinc to Oil


FF
 
well let me say i have been using Shell Rotella T which contains the zinc our cams reqiure.....you should lokk into this instead of an additive also there is Penn Brand which is green in cole but expensive.......just my two cents worth
 
I Have Purchased A Racer Brown Cam And Was Told By Jim That I Should Put A Bottle Of It In Every Oil Change, He Recommends It. Better To Be On The Safe Side. So I Will Be.
 
beepahh said:
well let me say i have been using Shell Rotella T which contains the zinc our cams reqiure.....you should lokk into this instead of an additive also there is Penn Brand which is green in cole but expensive.......just my two cents worth
Click to expand...

Not any more. I used to use it as well. I now use Valvoline racing oil only.
 
mikedevore said:
Not any more. I used to use it as well. I now use Valvoline racing oil only.
Click to expand...

Yep Rotella T has been gutted of zinc as well. If you can find older bottles like CI rated, that is the higher stuff, CJ rated is when they started to drop it, IIRC.
 
Fstforward said:
No. If you do the math, say one quart = 1 million parts, so one quart contains 1200ppm. Now multiply 5 quarts, that's 5 million "parts", and each quart contains 1200 parts, to times 5 =6000 parts/ but divided into 5 million, that still equals 1200ppm.

1=1200/1000000 = .0012 ratio Zinc to Oil
x5
5=6000/5000000 = .0012 ratio Zinc to Oil


FF
Click to expand...

Right. The Lucas rep says add the whole bottle and you will end up with a 5200 level of Zinc. This means you will end up with 6000 (5200) /5000000 with 5 quarts or 1200 PPM per oil change assuming the oil you are using contains next to nothing zinc which it seems true for most oils today. Is that not what we are all after?
 
I`ve read that a minimum of 1100ppm is enough to protect most cams/lifters. It`s also important to have a little phosphorus in the blend as well. I`ve just been using Valvoline VR-1 which is formulated for use with flat tappet cams. I like Lucas products but I would be less than impressed with a tech that tells you to "defiantly" use "Zink" in your engine. Although I know what he`s trying to say, it just seems very unprofessional. The math is also weird, 5200ppm, and if you were to add a pint of this to your engine wouldn`t you only add 4.5 quarts of oil to your engine? Oh well, I like the idea of using oil that is already mixed.
 
You asked for a sales pitch, and got it. Ask just about any company WHY you NEED their product and you will likely get a similar response. They are in business to sell a product, nothing more, nothing less.

Most browsers and email programs have a pretty good spell checker built in. I find misspelled words, and flagrant misuse of form and punctuation to be offensively unprofessional in business communication. Such disregard for the English language is an insult to the intelligence of potential customers. Although it may be possible that "some really dumb dudes came up with this really good stuff" I'll take my chances elsewhere, thank you.
 
i've never ever looked for any oil that had a high ZDDP (zinc & phosphorus) content. broken in cams with whatever oil, wallmart/castrol/mix and match/ etc. never had a cam failior. i've said this before. run killer springs on a street engine.. expect a lobe to go, also, running engines low on oil/ going 1,2k past oil change time/ not changing oil filters/ etc. 30 years of doing this and i call tell you that your oil will fail you if you neglect it. high ZDDP content or not. since the first dinasaur croked up until the mid 1990's the oil was 100 worse then what it is today. wheres the millions and millions of cam failiors do to the lack of ZDDP? you know, do to the fact that probably half of the people out there buy the cheapest oil they can get. including me. for the record, this is jmo.
 
Now I see it. 5200 ppm, not 5200 per oil change.

684mulas is probally the closest to having the right amount, 1/3 bottle per oil change.
 
I bought my 74 Gold Duster with a stock 318 2barrell back in 2001. It had a terrible miss. It turned out 2 lobes were wiped out. Only car I have had that had that kinda of damage. Who knows what oil they put in it before I got it, probably Wal*marts finest? I bought it from a guy in a trailer park(not a nice one). Back in 2001 I was using Mobil 1 and never thought about zinc and cams. Lately I use Valvoline Racing. If you use Valvoline racing oil, get the not street legal in the gray bottle, not VR1 which is for modern engines. My local NAPA had the gray bottle stuff but Autozone and Advance did not.
 
C130 Chief said:
Most browsers and email programs have a pretty good spell checker built in. I find misspelled words, and flagrant misuse of form and punctuation to be offensively unprofessional in business communication. Such disregard for the English language is an insult to the intelligence of potential customers. Although it may be possible that "some really dumb dudes came up with this really good stuff" I'll take my chances elsewhere, thank you.
Click to expand...

I agree.

My father used to work for a guy who thought that "an" & "and" were interchangeable. He corrected this guys letters for a while & finally quit doing it. My brother was an Intelligence Officer in the Army. His CO asked him how to spell acourse. My brother told him that he didn't think it was a word but the CO insisted that it was.

I know that not everybody is an excellent speller. But, when it's your JOB to communicate with the public you should be able to do it with proper spelling.
 
I'll 3rd that. If the only way to interact is writing an speach, how can you let is slide to the point that it make you look/sound stupid? I tend to mispell because I don't type well...lol. But I also rarely use spell check even at work. I'll proofread it because things like "there" and "thier" or the "an" and "and" will get by some of them.
 
well remember i started a thread on this because i was worried about my SL6 .510 flat tappet cam wiping. and somewhere in there somebody was taking about that after 1500ppm of ZDDP u will start to hurt the cam, cam spalling. im switching to brad penn oil "the green oil", u need no additives for flat cams...
 
A-BOMB360 said:
30 years of doing this and i call tell you that your oil will fail you if you neglect it. high ZDDP content or not. since the first dinasaur croked up until the mid 1990's the oil was 100 worse then what it is today. wheres the millions and millions of cam failiors do to the lack of ZDDP? you know, do to the fact that probably half of the people out there buy the cheapest oil they can get. including me. for the record, this is jmo.
Click to expand...


This would be a bad time to say the last time my Neon had fresh oil and filter the Republicans were involved in a primary election... wouldnt it? :D


And no i don't recommend this practice...lol. It just works for me....
 
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