1958 Ford 861 Tractor

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LJS30

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Okay guys I seem to get more help over here when it comes to tractor issues then specific forums dedicated to tractors. So let me give you my issue and your input is greatly appreciated.
My Ford 861 has been blowing through coils and points and seems to have done so again. So, I changed the coils and points but still do not have any spark at the points. Could it be the condenser? Ignition switch? Everything seems to be connected fine but I am truly frustrated at this point.
This tractor has a six volt system but is being powered by a 12 volt battery that I will be changing soon.
 
Have you converted everything to 12V or are you just running a 12V battery? That would be an issue. Also, is it negative or positive ground?
 
Have you converted everything to 12V or are you just running a 12V battery? That would be an issue. Also, is it negative or positive ground?

It's negative ground and was working fine with the 12V battery except for the frying coils and points after about two or three months of heavy use. I am HORRIBLE with electrics so your help is greatly appreciated.
 
I wired my 48 willys from scratch.
I am using 12v.
What needed to be done is wire in a mopar 2-pole ballast resistor and use a 12v external resistance required coil.
You will need from the start switch to provide 12v to the coil only when cranking.

If you wire it the same as any 72 and down mopar you should be golden.
6v starters last a long time when running 12v thru them, just do not crank on them long periods of time or get them hot.

Are you still running a 6v generator? If so convert it over to a gm one wire 12v.

Also 6v wiring is heaver than what is needed for 12v so as long as it in good shape you should have no issues.
 
You can't run a 12V battery in a 6V system and expect it to work properly. The electronics are not meant to take it. It will fry coils, points, condensors, generators, starters, switches, etc. Sure, it cranks over way fast, but it will play havoc. Think of it like plugging your table saw into 220v. It may work, but it can't take twice the voltage for long. Get yourself a 6V battery and probably some new points. They usually weld together first, then take out the coils.
 
Here is a shot of my willys when I started before putting the body on.
You can see that the wiring is basic, but it started, and charged.
This is what you need to do if you run 12v thru a 6v system.
I can draw a wiring diagram up if you need it.


1001706f.jpg
 
I wired my 48 willys from scratch.
I am using 12v.
What needed to be done is wire in a mopar 2-pole ballast resistor and use a 12v external resistance required coil.
You will need from the start switch to provide 12v to the coil only when cranking.

If you wire it the same as any 72 and down mopar you should be golden.
6v starters last a long time when running 12v thru them, just do not crank on them long periods of time or get them hot.

Are you still running a 6v generator? If so convert it over to a gm one wire 12v.

Also 6v wiring is heaver than what is needed for 12v so as long as it in good shape you should have no issues.
X2 he is telling you right.
 
You can't run a 12V battery in a 6V system and expect it to work properly. The electronics are not meant to take it. It will fry coils, points, condensors, generators, starters, switches, etc. Sure, it cranks over way fast, but it will play havoc. Think of it like plugging your table saw into 220v. It may work, but it can't take twice the voltage for long. Get yourself a 6V battery and probably some new points. They usually weld together first, then take out the coils.

Agree, actually they make a 8v battery that really helps a 6v system out turns the starter over faster with out all the pain of changing to 12v.
 
You can certainly convert it to 12V. Batteries are cheaper and last way longer. Immediate gratification? Run a 6V battery and find out why there is no spark. I would guess the points are welded together. I used to sell a lot of parts for tractors because the Almelund Tractor Fest (now Threshing Fest) is 14 miles away. It's a big deal for the tractor rebuilders.
 
You can't run a 12V battery in a 6V system and expect it to work properly. The electronics are not meant to take it. It will fry coils, points, condensors, generators, starters, switches, etc. Sure, it cranks over way fast, but it will play havoc. Think of it like plugging your table saw into 220v. It may work, but it can't take twice the voltage for long. Get yourself a 6V battery and probably some new points. They usually weld together first, then take out the coils.

Yes I think for now getting a 6v battery and condenser will be my next move. I already put on new points and a coil so hopefully this works out. Eventually though a 12V convert is in the works.
 
Here is a shot of my willys when I started before putting the body on.
You can see that the wiring is basic, but it started, and charged.
This is what you need to do if you run 12v thru a 6v system.
I can draw a wiring diagram up if you need it.


1001706f.jpg

That is one nice setup. If you have a diagram I would appreciate it for a future conversion I need to do.
 
Okay guys I bought a 6V battery, new coil, points, and condenser. After all that I still have no spark at the points. What next?
 
make sure you are getting voltage to the coil. Also, make sure the wire going to the points (from the - side of the coil) is not grounding out anywhere (including inside the distributor if there is a little wire in there).

Also, you CAN convert to 12v. I did that on my 1950 DeSoto and it was fine for years...(until I sold it). many many people do it. Way cheaper on lights etc.... Starter will be fine.
 
According to this site:
http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/001/6/6/1666-ford-861.html

If the tractor has not been converted to 12V, it should be a positive ground.
Just sayin'

It's turning over, but no spark at the points? Do you have them gapped correctly?
C


Man now I'm really confused and thank you guys for the help and patience. Okay, before this whole mess I was using your typical 12 Volt battery with the normal + going to the solenoid and - going to ground with all six volt components. Note I inherited this tractor as it was so just used it until all these issues developed with burning coils and points. Now that I have a 6 volt battery I should be hooking up the negative to the solenoid and the positive to ground? I am totally confused but need to get some work done.
 
How close are you to a Tractor Supply Co., or Ford Tractor dealer? You need to get your hands on a shop manual. These are good:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0872880923/tractordata-20"]Amazon.com: I and t Shop Service: Ford (Fo-20) (9780872880924): Intertec: Books[/ame]

With a positive ground you will hook positive to ground and negative to wherever it is supposed to hook up. My advise is to get the manual and go through the wiring diagrams and be sure that you have it all hooked up correctly. The good thing here is that there is very little electrical system to go over...

Now, will the engine turn over? Just no spark?
C
 
How close are you to a Tractor Supply Co., or Ford Tractor dealer? You need to get your hands on a shop manual. These are good:
Amazon.com: I and t Shop Service: Ford (Fo-20) (9780872880924): Intertec: Books

With a positive ground you will hook positive to ground and negative to wherever it is supposed to hook up. My advise is to get the manual and go through the wiring diagrams and be sure that you have it all hooked up correctly. The good thing here is that there is very little electrical system to go over...

Now, will the engine turn over? Just no spark?
C

The engine will turn over but there is no spark at the points.
 
Here is some short reading for you regarding changing the system from a positive to a negative ground:
http://www.spritespot.com/Downloads/Positive to Negative Ground Conversion.pdf

What was the condition of the tractor when you first got it? Was it running? Did it have a 6 or 12 volt battery in it? Do you remember if it was hooked up to a neg. ground? Does it have an ammeter? If so, was it operating normally (reading a + charge when running)?
I think you need to get the tractor manual and a test light and just track down where the juice stops flowing. At least with the tractor everything is easily accessable.
C
 
If you hook the positive cable to the solenoid, it either always was negative ground or was converted. Much better for you either way. I have an article that makes it very simple to understand how a point system works and has diagrams that make it very easy. PM me your email address and I will send them to you. It will help you determine what is happening to the spark. Here are some basic points pasted from the article.

The circuit that powers the ignition system is simple and straight forward. (see above) When you insert the key in the ignition switch and turn the key to the Run position, you are sending current from the battery through a wire directly to the positive (+) side of the ignition coil.

The points are made up of a fixed contact point that is fastened to a plate inside the distributor, and a movable contact point mounted on the end of a spring loaded arm.. The movable point rides on a 4,6, or 8 lobe cam (depending on the number of cylinders in the engine) that is mounted on a rotating shaft inside the distributor. This distributor cam rotates in time with the engine, making one complete revolution for every two revolutions of the engine. As it rotates, the cam pushes the points open and closed. Every time the points open, the flow of current is interrupted through the coil, thereby collapsing the magnetic field and releasing a high voltage surge through the secondary coil windings. This voltage surge goes out the top of the coil and through the high-tension coil wire.

This is the very basics. Do you have power at the coil when the ignition switch is on? Are your points properly gapped? Are you getting spark at the coil and not the plugs? All easy to check. I'd be happy to send you the article. I know about point systems and I thought it made it even easier to understand.
 
Well guys I am totally stumped on this thing. I checked for current to the coil, all was good. Checked other wiring for shorts and that was all fine. Re-adjusted the points, put on another coil, new condenser, and still nothing. What is up!!!!!!
 
Well guys I am totally stumped on this thing. I checked for current to the coil, all was good. Checked other wiring for shorts and that was all fine. Re-adjusted the points, put on another coil, new condenser, and still nothing. What is up!!!!!!

If you have a 6 volt battery be sure you have a 6 volt coil. A 6 volt system does not have a ballast resistor for the coil. The hot wire from the ignition goes to the + on the coil and the points wire goes to the - on the coil. Check with the cap off to be sure the dist. is turning and the points are opening and closing when cranking.
 
6v systems are usually positive ground so the neg side of the coil is the "hot" side and the pos side goes to the points.
Here's some wiring diagrams for you:
this one is for 6v pos ground
View attachment 291095

this one is for 12v neg ground
View attachment 291096
First off you really need to find a service manual and it is it positive or negative ground.You wire it different like daliant stated above.
If you had a bad ground either positive or negative ,when turning over the motor it would rob the power from the coil.
CHECK YOUR GROUND !!!
And like alan627b said is the distributor turning?
I wired up a 6v tractor with a one wire alternator and converted it to 12v...changed bulbs to 12V and drop resistor to distributor and works like a champ.
Good luck,
Martin
 
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