1965 Barracuda with 84 318

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swing69

fightin' socialism
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The engine is finally running, after the intake coolant debacle of this past June. I just wanted to post the carb/timing if anyone is interested.

.020 over pistons, stock heads 84 318- all new bearings / seals... timing set has Dakota tensioner.
Cam: Sum-6901
Dist: Jegs Electronic
Control: Orange box.
Carb: 1406 Edebrock.
Intake: Edelbrock Perform 318-340-360

Results on set up:
Initial timing: 13*
Mech. advance: 23* total advance 36*
15" Hg vacuum at idle.
Connected dist to maniold vacuum: vacuum advance 5*
Timing with vacuum, at idle roughly 18* - - still pulling 15" Hg
Idle screws: 1 1/2 out.

running good!
 
I too have a mostly stock 318 in a '65 Barracuda.

How do like your cam?
 
moving the advance to ported vacuum. the 18 initial idles smoother than the 13.....but takes too long to start.

Without touching the accelerator: needs 5 seconds of crank time before it starts at 18 initial. needs 3 seconds of cranking to start at 13 degrees initial.

I wish if would start "instantly" on ignition.....but no such luck.

Cam is a little lumpy for a stock engine....but certainly not bad. No glass or interior yet, so I don't know how it will be under road use. Heck, didn't even get the exhaust on it yet, its running through Y pipe only right now.

Maybe a little backpressure might help the start delay..???


Hard starting troubleshooting???? suggestions?
 
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Nothing comes to mind about the slower start versus timing; could be a lot of things. But it is a moot point anyway as that is not the way carb'd engine work when cold.... and it is not clear from the posts if it IS cold starting that is slow....

FWIW: Not touching the accelerator prior to cold starting makes no sense whatsover.... this is not fuel injected. A carb'd engine will never start instantly when cold with no action on the operator's part; the carb needs at least 1 pump of the accelerator when cold just to engage the choke. Try pumping accelerator pedal to floor 2x and release after each pump, prior to cranking, and see what happens.

Hot starting should be very quick if all is right and the fuel is not boiling out of the carb..... which apparently is not uncommon with the Edelbrock carbs..
 
I should be more clear...sorry. Once warm and running....I shut it down. wthing a minute, I turn the key - -its should start with NO throttle, just on the idle circuit. nice quick start.
I now have it doing that. I know that you need your foot in it, for setting the choke and some fuel introduced .

final setting: 13 degree initial mechanical timing, 36 total timing (mechanical). bell attached to ported vacuum - - getting another 5 -7 degrees. (can adjust for more) at 15 vac. Running nicely now.

I'm running a 1/2" termal insulator under the eddy carb on the manifold. Highly recomended
 
swing69 said:
I should be more clear...sorry. Once warm and running....I shut it down. wthing a minute, I turn the key - -its should start with NO throttle, just on the idle circuit. nice quick start.
I now have it doing that. I know that you need your foot in it, for setting the choke and some fuel introduced .

final setting: 13 degree initial mechanical timing, 36 total timing (mechanical). bell attached to ported vacuum - - getting another 5 -7 degrees. (can adjust for more) at 15 vac. Running nicely now.

I'm running a 1/2" termal insulator under the eddy carb on the manifold. Highly recomended
Click to expand...
Roger.... good deal.

Have you put a vacuum gauge on the ported vacuum port? I am surprised you are getting any vacuum at idle from that port, to cause the added advance from the vacuum module....???? Is this at an elevated RPM level?
 
swing69 said:
Cam is a little lumpy for a stock engine....but certainly not bad.
Click to expand...

Could be aggravating the problem. What rpm is your curb idle set at? Any more than about 850 and you will have some ported vacuum .
 
The mechanical advance will only give me 23 degrees as set - on top of the 13 intial. with no vacuum connected, I get to 36 degrees by 2500 or so...... no load on engine. with the vacuum connected to ported vacuum....its opens up to the low 40s..... I could adjust the vacuum advance to give few degrees.... I'll play later on with that once the car is on is on the road. Right now, still no interior or glass.....
 
toolmanmike said:
Could be aggravating the problem. What rpm is your curb idle set at? Any more than about 850 and you will have some ported vacuum .
Click to expand...

750 or so at idle. No ported vacuum at that point. unplugged the line, absolutely no change in timing

This is a good vid. on basics of advance....
 
nm9 is on the right track it sounds. The vacuum advance doesn't come into play as far as timing goes unless it's too much and causing ping. Heck running down the road with the vacuum hooked up you may have 50° or more. As long as it doesn't ping you're ok. The adjustable advance diaphragms are just for that.
 
swing69 said:
The mechanical advance will only give me 23 degrees as set - on top of the 13 intial. with no vacuum connected, I get to 36 degrees by 2500 or so...... no load on engine. with the vacuum connected to ported vacuum....its opens up to the low 40s..... I could adjust the vacuum advance to give few degrees.... I'll play later on with that once the car is on is on the road. Right now, still no interior or glass.....
Click to expand...
Ah OK, sounds like you are getting the vacuum advance at the higher RPM's when revving the engine while sitting still...is that correct? That would be expected.

I'd not play with it 'til the car is sorted out then add more vacuum advance a bit at a time when you can run it around and test different settings with all sorts of loads and speeds.

You just need a lawn chair installed with a couple of rachet straps, and a set of goggles and you are good to go! LOL
 
swing69 said:
Without touching the accelerator: needs 5 seconds of crank time before it starts at 18 initial. needs 3 seconds of cranking to start at 13 degrees initial.
Click to expand...

My 318 would start instantly when warm with a point-type distributor. After converting to a pointless system, it now takes 2 or 3 seconds to start when warm.
 
Everything was running great.....until the car got up to temp. The t-stat opened.....it started to run a little rougher, but not much. shut it down....looked at the dip stick...... oh...man......

Water puked into the oil A G A I N. I'm not a happy camper. at all.

new intake gaskets (thick), sealant.....new intake manifold.....I'm SOOOOOO disappointed.

Anyone have a good used 318???????????????????????????????????????????????????? in central NJ area?
 
Probably not the t'stat area per se... the coolant is pressurized by the pump in the block and heads and intake all the way up to the t'stat even when the t'stat is closed.

But..... did you do flushes of the crankcase after the last time, to get all the water out? And primed the oil pump to push diesel through the system while slowly rotating the crank to get the diesel in all the passages. I have done so but it took 4 flushes to the get most of the water out, and I had a lot less coolant in that engine than you had. I just have to wonder if this is just residual coolant still in the engine that is now just coming out....???

Did the coolant level drop? (Of course, that would be impossible to tell if you still were getting air out of the cooling system.)
 
nm9stheham said:
Probably not the t'stat area per se... the coolant is pressurized by the pump in the block and heads and intake all the way up to the t'stat even when the t'stat is closed.

But..... did you do flushes of the crankcase after the last time, to get all the water out? And primed the oil pump to push diesel through the system while slowly rotating the crank to get the diesel in all the passages. I have done so but it took 4 flushes to the get most of the water out, and I had a lot less coolant in that engine than you had. I just have to wonder if this is just residual coolant still in the engine that is now just coming out....???

Did the coolant level drop? (Of course, that would be impossible to tell if you still were getting air out of the cooling system.)
Click to expand...

I still had air, so the level dropped when the T stat opened. You are right though..... just noticed it when the tstat would have opened. coincidence.

I'm thinking once temp was up and the pressure was building, it leaked. certainly not residual water from the last time. I got it all all, primed and flushed with fresh oil. Had maybe 10 min of running time.....1 min and a time. Then the first continuous run up to temp, to purge all the air out of the cooling system, is when I noticed the tailpipe vapor. :(

Just picked up a leak down set up. that should tell me something...but may not be definitive. cooling pressure test may gve more info.
 
Dang.. yes may be a crack opening up with pressure and temp. Leak down may or may not reveal that, but worth a shot.

Have the heads and block surface been checked with at really good straight edge to see if either is warped? Sorry for the troubles.
 
will try to post a video later tonight. DId a compresson test: all cylinders dry, 135-150 psi. Did a Block Leak test with the blue fluid.....no combustion gases in coolant. Pulled the rocker shafts to close all the valves to do a leak down.

Low and behold; fresh coolant leaking from the rocker tower between 6 - 8 cylinder. Thats the long head bolt one that provides oiling to the rocker. NOT great news, but progress in finding the issue.......
More to come.
 
swing69 said:
Anyone have any extra cylinder heads???????????
Click to expand...
There should be a lot of them available here. Start a wanted thread and hopefully someone in your neighborhood will have a pair.
 
Pulled the head: flat with no obvious cracks. head gasket perfect. block surface looks good, no cracks. SOMEHOW....water getting into that oil passage to tower.
The LONG head bolt at the oiling rocker shaft tower had water wet threads. Now I'm thinking - - maybe the threads are pulled or cracked in the block alllowing coolant to walk up the bolt into the oil passage????

I dunno.........
 
swing69 said:
Pulled the head: flat with no obvious cracks. head gasket perfect. block surface looks good, no cracks. SOMEHOW....water getting into that oil passage to tower.
The LONG head bolt at the oiling rocker shaft tower had water wet threads. Now I'm thinking - - maybe the threads are pulled or cracked in the block alllowing coolant to walk up the bolt into the oil passage????

I dunno.........
Click to expand...
I was gonna ask if that was the rocker stand with the oil passage. I'd take that head off, and have it pressure tested. If yes, there you are. If not, then assume it is in the block. Could even be at the bottom of that head bolt hole.... just a pin hole from corrosion. Could be into the oil passage in the block.

Was the cooling system under pressure when you pulled the rockers above and saw the coolant out of the rocker stand? And are you checking the head with a known good straight edge, with just small or no variation, and a good light behind it?
 
trapster: thanks for the offer...but we'll learn more trying to figure this one out. good exercise! I did pick up a core 73 318 cheap if I need to take a cylinder head off of it. Same casting numbers as what I'm using.

nm9: There was minimal is any pressure on the coolant system when we pulled the rockers. Definitely raw, green coolant!

I'm going to check the thread holes tomorrow. I' made a pressure test fitting to pressurize the thread area. I'll start at 30 psi (could even use the leak down gauge). I'll see if I can spot a leak into the water jacket and/oil rocker feed.

If nothing.....I'll get the head to the machine shop for a pressure test. But that would be a hell of a crack from the oil feed journal to the water in the head, no?
 
Well, there have been some big cracks in engine parts before! Possible a freeze up situation. I have never looked to see how close that passage is to the cooling jacket in the head casting

And these engines sitting for a long time can get internal corrosion. Within the last year, someone here showed a cylinder that had coolant weeping in through a pin hole from the cooling jacket that had developed.

I guess I'd suspect & pressure test the head 1st. (Maybe because it is easy to take to the shop...)
 
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