1965 Valiant disc brake upgrade

[Acatl]

Hello,

I have a 4 door 1965 Valiant with the 225 slant 6 engine. Most of the items on the car work just fine but the brakes are scary. I did some reading and visiting websites including this one. I watched The Ram Man videos (http://theramman.com/) and also read and reread updated Disc-O-Tech by Richard Ehrenberg (http://www.moparaction.com/tech/archive/disc-main.html).

After all of that research I created a budget to see which would be the cheapest… these were my options.
Parts from junkyard?
Parts from The Ram Man?
Keep current wheel size of move to 5 x 4.5”?
Which master cylinder? Power assist?
Replace the whole system with new Tig welded system and GM Brakes?

I decided to keep my 13 inch 5 x 4” wheels, keep and rebuild rear brakes and only upgrade the front with A-Body 64-72 junkyard finds. I will also need to upgrade the master cylinder to larger one (no power assist). I also need to install a proportioning valve but the old brakes lines can stay. Constraints: I live in condo in Los Angeles so work space is always borrowed and offered for short periods.

I purchased two 4-piston K-H Calipers/Discs from a 1972 Dart, $512 plus shipping. (Wildcat Auto Wrecking, http://www.wildcatmopars.com/).

I found this article on rebuilding the calipers and rotors. Yes, you can turn the rotors (see specs inside). Also, rebuild kits are readily available and I can do this work before I bolt it onto the car.
(http://www.allpar.com/history/mopar/disc-brakes.html )

So, now to buy the rebuild kits and do some clean up of the parts just received from Oregon. Any help finding parts or anything you think I might have overlooked would be welcome input. I'll keep this updated as it progresses.

Thank You
Mike

 

[1970Duster]

You're going to have change your wheel size. 13" won't fit any of the disc brake setups. I would go with the single piston (73+ a body) setup because the parts a super easy to find and you have a much much larger wheel/rim selection. Plus with just a caliper adaptor you can run/use the 11.75 rotors (these require 15" wheels though). Just know the the bigger the wheel/rim the best tire selection you have.

You need at least 14" wheels minimum to fit you K/H brake setup. Oh and use STAINLESS STEEL pistons in the calipers. Don't forget the disc brake master cylinder.

 

[Acatl]

Update:
I have few questions still unanswered, but I am working on these. The majority of my questions were answered by 57dodged100, the Kelsey-Hayes Disk Brake Swap Thread. He did an excellent job including a parts list with vendors… super helpful.

Originally, I didn’t go for the drum to 76’ single piston caliper because of cost and the size of the job. I was trying to avoid the cost of replacing the 5x4” x13” wheels and the rear end swap to 5X4.5 lug pattern. As it turns out I still need to buy new wheels because the 72’ calipers will not fit into the 13” wheels. So I may only save a bit. There may be a less expensive way to change the rear bolt pattern than an axle swap, but I haven’t found it. I already purchased the parts from a 72’Dart and I am happy with the choice, so I am going to keep moving forward. Also, I am doing all of the work on a borrowed driveway. Each day I work on it, I must make the car drivable afterward… or at least pushable. One part of the project at a time, doing the work mostly by myself so I’ve got to get everything lined up first before I take it apart and the surprises begin to occur.

Unanswered Questions:
I am not sure which proportioning value to use to replace my distribution block. I plan on taking pics of what I have and doing a comparison. If this looks good will use one similar to stock, from a 1972 Dart with front disc and rear drum.

Using an adjustable type seems like it is more work than it is worth. I don’t really want to plumb if I can help it.

I am not sure about the plumbing from the master cylinder to the propositioning valve. Hopefully I can use that from a 72’ Dart. Its a going to be a daily driver, no drag racing.

The same goes for the Master Cylinder. I maybe going to go with the 10-1326 clip on top version recommended by Rocky_JS. It is the same as the “Fabled” BENDIX CASTING 2225541, except less money. This is for a power or manual system, 67-70 A-Body. I have not pushed the button on the purchase yet.

 

[Acatl]

The Proper Brake Distribution/Proportioning valve question: Which value should I use for my conversion? I followed the advice of 57dodged100 and did some research based upon his thread.

I went to InLineTube website and it said the following… “The first year for disc brakes on GM and Chrysler products was 1967, Ford was 1966. All American cars built prior to this had four wheel drum brakes. Disc brakes were introduced as an option from 1967-1972. Starting in the 1973 model year, front disc brakes were primarily standard and front drums were rarely available. The dual master cylinder that separates the front and rear braking systems was introduced and standard on all cars in 1967. Therefore, all 1967 and newer cars came with dual master cylinders from the factory. Disc brakes require over three times the line pressure of drums, so the master was divided to provide pressure to the front and rear separately. This also meant that if a front line blew out the car would still have pressure to the rear brakes and vice versa…. In 1971 for GM and 1972 for Chrysler, the one-piece combination (distribution/proportioning) valve replaced the multiple piece design. The combination valve keeps front and rear systems separate, splits the left and right front lines, houses the sending unit for the brake failure warning light and provides the proper brake line pressure for the front disc and rear drum systems. This is why it is important to know what is correct for your car and how your car can (or will) be converted from drum to disc. There are three basic disc conversions for 1967-70 cars: 1) Factory original conversion, 2) Combination valve conversion and 3) Adjustable valve conversion. Each conversion has its benefits.”

My car is a 1965 so disc brakes were not available. I don’t want to covert to a two-piece value design found in 1967-70 A-bodies, thus I need to move to later model combination valve. I also only have a single brake line running to the rear. With the combination valve conversion, one end attaches to my original single rear brake line, and I will only need to plumb two new lines to my new Master Cylinder.

The #BLK250 is described on inlinetube.com website as a “1969-74 A-body Distribution Block - Dart / Duster / Demon. For use on 1969-74 A-body Mopar with drum or disc brake. This is the distribution block that is mounted below the master cylinder which feeds fluid to all four wheels.”

I also found a different Proportioning Value, RSD-PV12, that Mancini Racing website says was original equipment on A-bodies with disc/drum and single brake line to the rear. (“1971 1974 Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth A Body - Barracuda, Dart, Duster, Valiant & 1969 1970 Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth B Body - Charger, Coronet, GTX, Road Runner”) (source: ManciniRacing Part number RSD-PV12).

With either I am looking a $90 dollars for these gems, unless I buy a used one and rebuild… I’m not going the rebuild. In either case I need to run two new lines from the Master Cylinder. I am not sure where my brake failure light/censor is on the 1965 valiant. You can see from the pic that it doesn’t connect to the original distribution block. I may not even have one? I don’t think it matters if I connect it or not… may be a project for the future.

The Push rod Question: Can I simply reuse the pushrod that is attached to my original Master Cylinder (Bendix 11096) which has an intergraded pushrod? Do I need another part or adaptor to use the newer Raybestos MC36406? According to Disc-O-Tech article I can just reuse the pushrod. (see attached or see http://www.moparaction.com/tech/archive/disc-main.html) I am going to do some double checking on this…

The Master Cylinder Question: Which should I use? I decided to use the Raybestos Master cylinder (#MC36406). Thanks again 57dodged100 for the advice.

 

[Acatl]

Disc-o-tech article from Mopar Action Online, by Text and Photos
by Richard Ehrenberg.

 

[Oklacarcollecto]

In 1965 disc brakes was a dealer installed item so yes they were available.


I see that you have already posted in this thread.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=266225


Even though this thread is for the big bolt conversion it will give you good basic information on doing your brake swap.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=90216


You are going to have to use a dual master cylinder with lines. To solve your brake line issue, I would buy one of these from hemi71x.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=280647

 

[nfjarvis]

I have a 1964 2 door V200 Valiant Signet and also am hoping to have front disc brakes as well. I was wondering how your conversion has gone thus far. The stopping point for my conversion has been the wheel size upgrade required. I currently have the Mopar 14" rally wheels and hoped to remain with them as they are in great shape with new tires.
Does anyone out there have a complete kit to purchase, either power of not for a front disc conversion for a 64 A Body? I would prefer not to piece meal my way to a complete brake conversion.
I appreciate any suggestions you have based on your recent experience.

 

[Acatl]

Hello,

My project was on hold for a bit but your post inspired me to get it going again. I am going to get the rotors turned and new bearings for my 72 Dart parts... then see about the install. I still need to order a few things, but the plan as described above is still a go. I planned on buying new tires and wheels. But, I have it on good authority that I can probably use metric rims, but searching for the best looking ones with correct offset and condition may not be worth the hassle. I'll take pics and everything when I get the thing apart.


Mike

 

[Acatl]

Hello,

I am restarting my project after lots of waiting.

Recap: I am replacing the drum brakes on the front of 1965 Plymouth Valiant 225 with disc. So I can drive on the freeway and not be terrified. I am using 4 piston system off of a 1972 Dodge Dart. Why the 4 piston system? Because I can keep the original bolt pattern 5X4". I do need to buy new 14 or 15 inch rims to accommodate. I am using a later model single peace proportioning valve because they work better and I don't have to do much plumbing, just two new lines to the MC.

1. I found a local shop here in LA that turned the rotors and replaced the bearings on the used parts (Dart 1972).

2. I recently ordered a "Chrysler Mopar adjustable master cylinder push rod A/B body" from a seller called doctordiff1 on eBay. $50. This was a good find.

3. I have not decided which Master Cylinder (MC36406 or MC36426) to go with... but I will make that decision and let you know.

I am also cheating. I found a mechanic that will do the swap for me. I live in an apartment and don't have the room. Today we are going to lift the car and confirm whell sizes for ordering.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[66fyssh]

Make sure to use the push rod retainer (little rubber grommet). There's a relief inside the master cylinder slot that the retainer fits into.

When I upgraded mine I put the retainer in the master cylinder slot first, then when I inserted the push rod into the master cylinder, it snapped into place on the pushrod. It keeps the push rod from coming out of the master cylinder.

The adjustable push rod from Doctor Diff has the slot for the retainer and I think he even gives a new retainer with the push rod.

Keep us updated on your progress! Nothing wrong with calling in a mechanic to help! Especially since you're in an apartment at the time.

 

[64_Barracuda]

So I am doing the ram man now. Changing spindles from there out only, he machines the rotors and puts the 5 by 4 bolt pattern. Easy day no nothing else just an adjustable prop valve that's it.

For stock purposes I am using my master and booster. Basically it's a 66 barracuda now with disk brakes, except not the Kelsey Hayes, there is more stopping power with the 76 dart caliper than the 4 piston Kelsey Hayes.

Kit should be here in a few weeks, I will post as I put it together.

 

[64_Barracuda]

Hello, I am restarting my project after lots of waiting. Recap: I am replacing the drum brakes on the front of 1965 Plymouth Valiant 225 with disc. So I can drive on the freeway and not be terrified. I am using 4 piston system off of a 1972 Dodge Dart. Why the 4 piston system? Because I can keep the original bolt pattern 5X4". I do need to buy new 14 or 15 inch rims to accommodate. I am using a later model single peace proportioning valve because they work better and I don't have to do much plumbing, just two new lines to the MC. 1. I found a local shop here in LA that turned the rotors and replaced the bearings on the used parts (Dart 1972). 2. I recently ordered a "Chrysler Mopar adjustable master cylinder push rod A/B body" from a seller called doctordiff1 on eBay. $50. This was a good find. 3. I have not decided which Master Cylinder (MC36406 or MC36426) to go with... but I will make that decision and let you know. I am also cheating. I found a mechanic that will do the swap for me. I live in an apartment and don't have the room. Today we are going to lift the car and confirm whell sizes for ordering. Cheers, Mike

Your caliper will hit with 13 wheels.

 

[amusingarts]

I did a disc conversion on my 65 Valiant with the 70's Mopar junkyard parts and it went real smooth. I also went for a 8 1/4 rear end which allows me to run 14" wheels all the way around instead of mixing the new 14s with the rear the 13s, that would just look weird INHO.
I don't see the point of just doing the front brakes if you end up running 2 wheel sizes, 2 spare tires would be a little problematic in my view.
Also keep in mind that the original 7 1/4 rear end is a relic, holds only a few pints of lube and is weak in every sense of the word. Just replacing the wheel bearing on the old rear end will probably cost twice what a used beefy 8 1/4 rear end would cost,

 

[Acatl]

Hello All,

I finally finished the disc brake project on my Valiant. It took a while. The job was a mix of my research and part buying combined with a mechanic I found here in Los Angeles.

I got the car and it had a big problem with brakes. I fixed them (drum) but they still didn’t work well. Not for 2015 LA traffic. I decided to upgrade to discs on the front.

List of stuff:
Used Rotors, spindles, steering parts Kelsey Hayes disc brakes from a 1972 dart. (see original post) (Wildcat Auto Wrecking, http://www.wildcatmopars.com/). ($512)

New calipers, brake pads, wheel bearings, stainless brake tubing for calipers, rubber tubing, dust caps, retaining nuts and washers and master cylinder from RockAuto.com.

New adjustable proportioning valve from JEGS.com ($40). After lots of looking I decided to use the same master cylinder used by Plymouth when they made the car with the disc brake option, 1” bore, two reservoirs, does not require new pushrod ($40). I also used the same distribution block that was on the car, just blocked the port for the rear brakes. The second reservoir on the master cylinder was routed to the JEGS adjustable proportioning valve mounted under the car and then directly to the rear brakes.

New Wheels and tires: $1200.
Crager Super Sport: Bolt Pattern – 5X4inch, 15 x 6 up front and 15 x 7 in the rear. Both with same bolt pattern.

Tires:
FRONT - BF Goodrich Radial T/A - 205/60R15 - White Letter
REAR - BF Goodrich Radial T/A - 215/60R15 - White Letter

Mechanic:
I went around town and got the rotors turned and the bearing pressed into the new parts. I put it all together and found a good mechanic. His biggest challenge was finding all the correct fittings for the brake line. This wasn’t easy the thread patterned used by Plymouth on their Master Cylinders is difficult to find and match without an adaptor.

His name is Tony, Tony’s Custom Bike & Rod Fabrication, 323-428-2559, 995 Mission Rd. L.A. CA, 90033. He did a really fast installation and the brakes work great.

 

[Keith Mopar]

Nice clean install, those wheels look a lot better than the 13's in my opinion!

Sounds like you found a great mechanic.

 

[BillGrissom]

I did the same prop valve plumbing on my 64 & 65 A. Autozone has a plug for the rear port and a 1/4 to 3/16 flare adapter for the top port. I used a 99 Breeze MC that had 3/16" ports, though I do have several old Mopar brake tubes w/ various size nuts. I filled my MC's with silicone fluid. No sense putting rust-prone glycol into my clean system.

Cool that you stayed with the date correct K-H brakes. Those larger wheels make the car. They always look dumpy w/ the original 13" wheels. You can buy new 5x4" wheels but why bother when so many are changing to 5x4.5" and making a buyer's market.

For others on a budget, Scarebird's disk kit would have been easier and cheaper since you keep your spindles. But if you must change ball joints anyway, that becomes a wash.