1978 318

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dieselman966

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My brother has a 78 w200 with a 318. Hes wanting more power. I've talked him into ditching the stock 4027593 heads for some aftermarket cast iron ones. What's everyone running on here for after market cast iron heads? The EQ sound nice. Would they perform good with a stock bottom end and a Hughes whiplash camshaft. Were not looking to own the street but it would be nice if the truck would get out of it own way.
 
A set of 340/360 heads will increase performance with the increased flow, but the larger combustion chambers will lower your compression to about 7.6:1....


I had a set of 67 273 heads done up with 360 valves... 1.88" intakes, 1.60" exhaust valves with porting... The smaller combustion chambers on those heads will bump up the compression about .4 points.... Then a .040" head gasket will get the engine to about 8.6:1 compression... With the porting and larger valves, the 66 273 heads will flow as much as a stock 340/360 head or more...
 
Your truck weighs ~ 5,000 lbs. You need torque. You need cubic inches. Go with a 360 for now. [Remember the balance issue]. Then build a stroker motor from the 318. You'll be happy.
 
All you guys throwing out 318s should give them to me....

face-with-rolling-eyes.png
 
318 hop up is a wast of good money in that brute, I got A hi-stall and some 4.88s for you.
Granted, a larger displacement is a better starting point.

What if, the person asking for help doesn’t have the money for a huge expenditure?

***’s like you don’t help and give the forum a bad rap as well as deter people from building up or enhancing there ride because of asshole arrogant post of a holier than thou angle.

You can sit there with your GD calculators all flippin day long and science out reasons why and in the end, it doesn’t hold any water.

Why?

Because the people looking to build what they have may not have the time, place or funds to purchase a unknown condition $700 - 340 and start from scratch.
Shut heads always turn and say do a 360...

Again, some people may not have the time or place to build from scratch.

Why you don’t answer the question and help a brother out is beyond me and even more so from a BIBLE THUMPING fella like yourself.

If you ain’t helping the OP to hop up his brothers 318 and do so without mentioning what ridiculing or sign sing out the reasons why, to a larger engine size, then;

YOUR JUST PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!!
 
EQ good choice but watch compression ratio changes
you have to do some digging to get the right cam and most likely whiplash is not it
compression, quench, what rev range - lot of input needed
especially if you still end up with low compression
 
EQ good choice but watch compression ratio changes
you have to do some digging to get the right cam and most likely whiplash is not it
compression, quench, what rev range - lot of input needed
especially if you still end up with low compression
Whiplash = Used for the radical idle characteristics.
Nothing more.
 
Rumble
I don't get you; you constantly rag on me for long posts, and the one time I am blunt and to the point, it's too short for you? If OP needs clarification, he'll ask. He doesn't need you comin' out swinging.

What's cheaper a complete 340 top end and stinking 340 cam?.......or a TC and gears?
What's more effective off the line? A complete 340 topend and stinking 340 cam?........or a TC and gears.
Com'on, this is a no-brainer decision. After that 78 pig 318 tanks with all that baggage you wanna bolt on, he's still gonna , at the very least, very least, need a higher stall TC..... and I know it want's gears. It's a heavy tank, with barely enough compression to start; it doesn't need power at 5000rpm; it needs to get moving off the line.
But go ahead call me names and spend his money........
 
whiplash style cams
big duration lobe with the intake closed early via a narrow LCA and at the expense of overlap = low vacuum and bad idle and low speed inneficiencyyou can roll your own if it is what works
most of the time it is'nt
 
If you're wanting a little more power, how about a set of #302 heads with a porting and good valve job. There is a sticky on it. A 4bbl and GOOD tune on it. Recurve the distributor, dual exhaust and 4bbl. Even with the stock bottom end, that will give a noticeable jump in performance and relatively easy to do.
 
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Your truck weighs ~ 5,000 lbs. You need torque. You need cubic inches. Go with a 360 for now. [Remember the balance issue]. Then build a stroker motor from the 318. You'll be happy.
I’ll agree with this. We’re dealing with a 3/4 ton truck, that was built to haul. A 318 just doesn’t have the grunt, and is probably a replacement engine anyway. For the price of the set of heads, you could probably source a good 5.9 Magnum engine from a salvage yard.

318’s are good engines and have their place, a 3/4 ton truck isn’t one of them.
 
A 318 specific 4 barrel intake with a 1901 holley street demon well tuned, a free flowing exhaust and a well curved hot ignition system will do wonders for a 318. Will it be a 440? No.

I have an e48 318 with a 1901 street demon carb but otherwise stock in my 1984 W100 with a 727 (no stall), 3.55 gears and 33 in tires. It runs great, not 440 great but surprisingly good.

It really depends on how much you want to spend and what condition your 318 is in.
 
Don't spend $$$ putting 1.88 1.60 valves into 273 heads or any of that crap unless you want to do a lot of porting to make them work right. It's easier to work with the stock valve size if you're going to go that route ...aka the 200-210cfm intake flow range.
If you want to stay with a 318 in that truck and not stroke it to 390 cubic inches then you'll need to get more air into it and out of it.
Ultimately a set of heads will help... but the cid falls short of big low rpm grunt
 
If I had it my way I would have him sell the 318 and 727 and swap an LS set up in it. $ for $ your not gonna beat them

Anyways back to the 318. He's looking to cruise this truck around and maybe hit the pulling track. Nothing crazy. If the motor is all dont at 5000 rpm that's fine. The truck has 4.10 gears in it as it is. A stall would definitely wake it up. He purchased the eq stage 1 heads, whiplash cam and headers. We will be putting an edelbrock 4bbl intake on with 600 edelbrock carb. I am having him send the distributor out to be recurved and have total mechanical timing around *36. I may talk him into sending that cam back though and getting one of the comp xe cams. I have an comp xe256 in my fe 352 that seem to work pretty good. We were thinking the whiplash cam would help with compression being low. What kind of piston to deck clearance do these 318 typically have?

When he bought the truck truck the guy said it had been rebuilt recently but we all know how that goes lol. He has the money to do the whole motor but doesnt want to spend it this year. I dont blame him. But maybe next winter he'll stroke it and then he will have a good top end to go with it already.

Granted, a larger displacement is a better starting point.

What if, the person asking for help doesn’t have the money for a huge expenditure?

***’s like you don’t help and give the forum a bad rap as well as deter people from building up or enhancing there ride because of asshole arrogant post of a holier than thou angle.

You can sit there with your GD calculators all flippin day long and science out reasons why and in the end, it doesn’t hold any water.

Why?

Because the people looking to build what they have may not have the time, place or funds to purchase a unknown condition $700 - 340 and start from scratch.
Shut heads always turn and say do a 360...

Again, some people may not have the time or place to build from scratch.

Why you don’t answer the question and help a brother out is beyond me and even more so from a BIBLE THUMPING fella like yourself.

If you ain’t helping the OP to hop up his brothers 318 and do so without mentioning what ridiculing or sign sing out the reasons why, to a larger engine size, then;

YOUR JUST PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!!

Rumblefish. I get a lot of this when asking questions. It would be nice if he had the $10k upfront that he wanted to spend but he doesn't. I guess we should just leave the 318 as is and not enjoy it at all. I agree in a perfect world we would start with a larger displacement engine. But he wants to see what the 318 will do. I mean why mess with a 360. My as well go get a 440 and stuff that in there!
 
If I had it my way I would have him sell the 318 and 727 and swap an LS set up in it. $ for $ your not gonna beat them

Anyways back to the 318. He's looking to cruise this truck around and maybe hit the pulling track. Nothing crazy. If the motor is all dont at 5000 rpm that's fine. The truck has 4.10 gears in it as it is. A stall would definitely wake it up. He purchased the eq stage 1 heads, whiplash cam and headers. We will be putting an edelbrock 4bbl intake on with 600 edelbrock carb. I am having him send the distributor out to be recurved and have total mechanical timing around *36. I may talk him into sending that cam back though and getting one of the comp xe cams. I have an comp xe256 in my fe 352 that seem to work pretty good. We were thinking the whiplash cam would help with compression being low. What kind of piston to deck clearance do these 318 typically have?

When he bought the truck truck the guy said it had been rebuilt recently but we all know how that goes lol. He has the money to do the whole motor but doesnt want to spend it this year. I dont blame him. But maybe next winter he'll stroke it and then he will have a good top end to go with it already.



Rumblefish. I get a lot of this when asking questions. It would be nice if he had the $10k upfront that he wanted to spend but he doesn't. I guess we should just leave the 318 as is and not enjoy it at all. I agree in a perfect world we would start with a larger displacement engine. But he wants to see what the 318 will do. I mean why mess with a 360. My as well go get a 440 and stuff that in there!

Fwiw its maybe an $800 diff to stroke, still buying rings, bearings, paying for balance if you rebuilt stock..so I don't really figure that stuff , But anyways..good move on the eq heads.
 
Here’s my thing....

If you ask for help with your problem/engine/whatever...
Do you really need some asshole answering you in a non helpful manor while dumping a turd on your question and goals? Is amazing how so many people will just overlook the question and suggest spending 10K of your money like it’s chump change in your wallet.

They will say, start with a bigger engine, & suggest a 360. I say, Hypocrites! It’s such is the case, why did they not suggest a big block? It’s too damn easy to suggest something completely out of the realm or of the question that needs to be answered. If your buddy wants to hop up at 3:18, so be it! I have no issue with it. I would rather help then be a hindrance or a jerk that’s just suggests something that’s really not helpful.

A good while back I did a 318 on the cheap hop up in response to this Attitude since I had a free 318 in decent shape. I had some fun with it. I wasn’t able to complete the task. Sold the car.

If I had it my way I would have him sell the 318 and 727 and swap an LS set up in it. $ for $ your not gonna beat them

Anyways back to the 318. He's looking to cruise this truck around and maybe hit the pulling track. Nothing crazy. If the motor is all dont at 5000 rpm that's fine. The truck has 4.10 gears in it as it is. A stall would definitely wake it up. He purchased the eq stage 1 heads, whiplash cam and headers. We will be putting an edelbrock 4bbl intake on with 600 edelbrock carb. I am having him send the distributor out to be recurved and have total mechanical timing around *36. I may talk him into sending that cam back though and getting one of the comp xe cams. I have an comp xe256 in my fe 352 that seem to work pretty good. We were thinking the whiplash cam would help with compression being low. What kind of piston to deck clearance do these 318 typically have?

When he bought the truck truck the guy said it had been rebuilt recently but we all know how that goes lol. He has the money to do the whole motor but doesnt want to spend it this year. I dont blame him. But maybe next winter he'll stroke it and then he will have a good top end to go with it already.



Rumblefish. I get a lot of this when asking questions. It would be nice if he had the $10k upfront that he wanted to spend but he doesn't. I guess we should just leave the 318 as is and not enjoy it at all. I agree in a perfect world we would start with a larger displacement engine. But he wants to see what the 318 will do. I mean why mess with a 360. My as well go get a 440 and stuff that in there!
 
Your truck weighs ~ 5,000 lbs. You need torque. You need cubic inches. Go with a 360 for now. [Remember the balance issue]. Then build a stroker motor from the 318. You'll be happy.
5000 with 2 persons on board sounds about right, maybe it would be a bit either way.
5000/318=15.7 pounds per cubic inch which by itself doesn't sound that bad
until you remember, I think those 318s were rated at 150 hp.
5000/150= 33.3 pounds per horsepower . The lightest A-bodys ever produced,often had 170 slantys in them rated at 100hp. So by contrast, that would be
2700/100= 27pounds per hp; the difference being over 22%, in favor of the slanty.
So for the W200 to get to 27, would take 185 hp, or 35 hp more than what it was born with. Ok so 35 is doable with bolt-ons, to get to 27 pounds per hp. Yippee, no one ever bragged on their 65 Valiant 170 bring able to get out of it's own way.

Ok I get it you might want to keep the 318. So buy the heads, buy the cam,buy the 4bbl kit, and buy the headers and exhaust. Install it all, and be IDK, maybe $2000/2500 dollars poorer, and zero to 30 mph will be no faster than it is now, perhaps even slower, probably slower.
And the reason is simple, the loss of cylinder pressure and the later closing intake gave up even more pressure, and the cam moved the power up the rpm band some 400 to 800 rpm depending on how big a cam you install. The 4bbl doesn't gain ground until say 3500rpm, in first gear; how fast is that in your truck? and the new exhaust ain't worth much..... because it depends on the cam and 4 bbl.
So now you have this ~$2200 dollar hole you dug, and yur gonna have to spend another $1600 or more to get out of it, never mind being faster off the line. So now you go get the big TC and higher number street gears, that I mentioned in an earlier post.
And now your W200 jumps off the line and pukes, because the cam is too big, and there us just not enough cylinder pressure to sustain the acceleration.
So now yur really committed; you have spent nearly $4000, and all you got to show for it is a lil jump off the line.
So now out comes the engine for some new pistons and whatever machining will be required to make everything play nice together.Then you throw away that big street cam for a tight-lash solid lifter fast rate-of lift, torque-making cam; and finally after say $ 6000, you got more than a wet noodle.
When all is said and done;
You still have 5000/318=15.7 pounds per cube, and say 5000/250hp=20 pounds per hp, wait what? Yeah the 65 Valiant makes better than that with a 225, but hang on, you now have the TC and gears working for you, And with the new power starting at 3000/3500, maybe you can catch him in the zero to 60mph battle.
I'm trying to save you money, and disappointment, and headaches, and downtime. Since no matter what; yur gonna need a hi-stall and gears; wouldn't it make sense to start there?

Here is an easy test; I bet you have 235/75-15 or 16s on that truck. Take off those tires and borrow the shortest wheel-combo you can find, at least 20% shorter on there and that will make your truck feel like it has 20% more torque at take-off.
To simulate the TC, park on the steepest grade you can find, facing downhill of course, and hit it!, for three truck-lengths. Now imagine a new TC doing better than that on the level.
I stand behind my recommendation; You can start there or finish there, but you will get there sooner or later,
unless you get a bigger engine..........
Then maybe one or the other........
Then the one you missed.....
Cuz it's never enough,lol.

Where you will one day want to be is down at 12/1 or less pounds per hp, which being 5000/12=416 hp
Waitaminute, that number sounds kindof familiar; hm..........
 
So, AJ, the Hughesengines Whiplash cam doesn’t have the timing events to help low compression engines like they say it does.

Because your whole entire derogatory post is hinged on that statement below on why it becomes worse off. The bolt on parts alone will add power without any BP or TQ loss.

If so, could you tell me how OU812 and IIRC, Jim LaRoy found good power with these cams in there mills as well as a small gaggle of members here that have used that cam.

I have also never seen headers add less than 15 hp. There even better on the old high compression builds in big blocks! WOW! However even on lowly 318’s, they add power AND TORQUE. And the best part is you don’t ya e to change the torque converter out for a higher stall nor do you have to add gear.

I have used a cam duration @218@050 with the stock gears (3.21) and no converter change! Sucker still burned rubber like it was born to do so. On his truck, I’d only aim a few degrees lower.

From Hughes;

“WARNING: Our Whiplash cam is designed for basically stock, low compression engines. This cam will run on pump gas in a 318 with 8.6:1 or less compression and iron heads. If your compression is higher than this you may need to use a higher octane race fuel. Your vacuum should be in the 9"-11" range using this cam.
(Figures calculated using stock stroke & compression at 750' altitude.)”

Must be the timing events!!!!!


5000 with 2 persons on board sounds about right, maybe it would be a bit either way.
5000/318=15.7 pounds per cubic inch which by itself doesn't sound that bad
until you remember, I think those 318s were rated at 150 hp.
5000/150= 33.3 pounds per horsepower . The lightest A-bodys ever produced,often had 170 slantys in them rated at 100hp. So by contrast, that would be
2700/100= 27pounds per hp; the difference being over 22%, in favor of the slanty.
So for the W200 to get to 27, would take 185 hp, or 35 hp more than what it was born with. Ok so 35 is doable with bolt-ons, to get to 27 pounds per hp. Yippee, no one ever bragged on their 65 Valiant 170 bring able to get out of it's own way.

Ok I get it you might want to keep the 318. So buy the heads, buy the cam,buy the 4bbl kit, and buy the headers and exhaust. Install it all, and be IDK, maybe $2000/2500 dollars poorer, and zero to 30 mph will be no faster than it is now, perhaps even slower, probably slower.
And the reason is simple, the loss of cylinder pressure and the later closing intake gave up even more pressure, and the cam moved the power up the rpm band some 400 to 800 rpm depending on how big a cam you install. The 4bbl doesn't gain ground until say 3500rpm, in first gear; how fast is that in your truck? and the new exhaust ain't worth much..... because it depends on the cam and 4 bbl.
So now you have this ~$2200 dollar hole you dug, and yur gonna have to spend another $1600 or more to get out of it, never mind being faster off the line. So now you go get the big TC and higher number street gears, that I mentioned in an earlier post.
And now your W200 jumps off the line and pukes, because the cam is too big, and there us just not enough cylinder pressure to sustain the acceleration.
So now yur really committed; you have spent nearly $4000, and all you got to show for it is a lil jump off the line.
So now out comes the engine for some new pistons and whatever machining will be required to make everything play nice together.Then you throw away that big street cam for a tight-lash solid lifter fast rate-of lift, torque-making cam; and finally after say $ 6000, you got more than a wet noodle.
When all is said and done;
You still have 5000/318=15.7 pounds per cube, and say 5000/250hp=20 pounds per hp, wait what? Yeah the 65 Valiant makes better than that with a 225, but hang on, you now have the TC and gears working for you, And with the new power starting at 3000/3500, maybe you can catch him in the zero to 60mph battle.
I'm trying to save you money, and disappointment, and headaches, and downtime. Since no matter what; yur gonna need a hi-stall and gears; wouldn't it make sense to start there?

Here is an easy test; I bet you have 235/75-15 or 16s on that truck. Take off those tires and borrow the shortest wheel-combo you can find, at least 20% shorter on there and that will make your truck feel like it has 20% more torque at take-off.
To simulate the TC, park on the steepest grade you can find, facing downhill of course, and hit it!, for three truck-lengths. Now imagine a new TC doing better than that on the level.
I stand behind my recommendation; You can start there or finish there, but you will get there sooner or later,
unless you get a bigger engine..........
Then maybe one or the other........
Then the one you missed.....
Cuz it's never enough,lol.

Where you will one day want to be is down at 12/1 or less pounds per hp, which being 5000/12=416 hp
Waitaminute, that number sounds kindof familiar; hm..........
 
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5000 with 2 persons on board sounds about right, maybe it would be a bit either way.
5000/318=15.7 pounds per cubic inch which by itself doesn't sound that bad
until you remember, I think those 318s were rated at 150 hp.
5000/150= 33.3 pounds per horsepower . The lightest A-bodys ever produced,often had 170 slantys in them rated at 100hp. So by contrast, that would be
2700/100= 27pounds per hp; the difference being over 22%, in favor of the slanty.
So for the W200 to get to 27, would take 185 hp, or 35 hp more than what it was born with. Ok so 35 is doable with bolt-ons, to get to 27 pounds per hp. Yippee, no one ever bragged on their 65 Valiant 170 bring able to get out of it's own way.

Ok I get it you might want to keep the 318. So buy the heads, buy the cam,buy the 4bbl kit, and buy the headers and exhaust. Install it all, and be IDK, maybe $2000/2500 dollars poorer, and zero to 30 mph will be no faster than it is now, perhaps even slower, probably slower.
And the reason is simple, the loss of cylinder pressure and the later closing intake gave up even more pressure, and the cam moved the power up the rpm band some 400 to 800 rpm depending on how big a cam you install. The 4bbl doesn't gain ground until say 3500rpm, in first gear; how fast is that in your truck? and the new exhaust ain't worth much..... because it depends on the cam and 4 bbl.
So now you have this ~$2200 dollar hole you dug, and yur gonna have to spend another $1600 or more to get out of it, never mind being faster off the line. So now you go get the big TC and higher number street gears, that I mentioned in an earlier post.
And now your W200 jumps off the line and pukes, because the cam is too big, and there us just not enough cylinder pressure to sustain the acceleration.
So now yur really committed; you have spent nearly $4000, and all you got to show for it is a lil jump off the line.
So now out comes the engine for some new pistons and whatever machining will be required to make everything play nice together.Then you throw away that big street cam for a tight-lash solid lifter fast rate-of lift, torque-making cam; and finally after say $ 6000, you got more than a wet noodle.
When all is said and done;
You still have 5000/318=15.7 pounds per cube, and say 5000/250hp=20 pounds per hp, wait what? Yeah the 65 Valiant makes better than that with a 225, but hang on, you now have the TC and gears working for you, And with the new power starting at 3000/3500, maybe you can catch him in the zero to 60mph battle.
I'm trying to save you money, and disappointment, and headaches, and downtime. Since no matter what; yur gonna need a hi-stall and gears; wouldn't it make sense to start there?

Here is an easy test; I bet you have 235/75-15 or 16s on that truck. Take off those tires and borrow the shortest wheel-combo you can find, at least 20% shorter on there and that will make your truck feel like it has 20% more torque at take-off.
To simulate the TC, park on the steepest grade you can find, facing downhill of course, and hit it!, for three truck-lengths. Now imagine a new TC doing better than that on the level.
I stand behind my recommendation; You can start there or finish there, but you will get there sooner or later,
unless you get a bigger engine..........
Then maybe one or the other........
Then the one you missed.....
Cuz it's never enough,lol.

Where you will one day want to be is down at 12/1 or less pounds per hp, which being 5000/12=416 hp
Waitaminute, that number sounds kindof familiar; hm..........

They said the same thing about my 352 in my galaxie. Get a 390 and stick 3k of work into that. The money wasn't there at the time for all that. I did have enough to deck the block .085 and mill the heads .020. Upgraded the camshaft and valve springs and now the car will do a burn out. It wouldn't even hint at that before.

So heads and a cam along with more compression is worth maybe 35hp in a 318? I really wonder why people even mess with these motors then. I bought a gm 6.0l with a 4l80e and all the accessories and wiring harness for $850. I'm pretty sure another $1000 would cover putting that into whatever I want to. 300+ hp all day long that I could cruise with overdrive. Why waste money on these old mopar engines if they don't perform?

I talked to a machine shop today in my area. He quoted me 3500 to 4000 for an assembled 392 short block. I'm sure this would perform better buy why stop there. We could source a smog era 440 for less than 1000 and with some minor upgrades that would probably be ahead of the 392.
 
On the teen, use a small cam, small 4bbl. and dual exhaust. It’ll be fine. He needs torque more than anything in the truck.
They said the same thing about my 352 in my galaxie. Get a 390 and stick 3k of work into that. The money wasn't there at the time for all that. I did have enough to deck the block .085 and mill the heads .020. Upgraded the camshaft and valve springs and now the car will do a burn out. It wouldn't even hint at that before.

So heads and a cam along with more compression is worth maybe 35hp in a 318? I really wonder why people even mess with these motors then. I bought a gm 6.0l with a 4l80e and all the accessories and wiring harness for $850. I'm pretty sure another $1000 would cover putting that into whatever I want to. 300+ hp all day long that I could cruise with overdrive. Why waste money on these old mopar engines if they don't perform?

I talked to a machine shop today in my area. He quoted me 3500 to 4000 for an assembled 392 short block. I'm sure this would perform better buy why stop there. We could source a smog era 440 for less than 1000 and with some minor upgrades that would probably be ahead of the 392.
 
On the teen, use a small cam, small 4bbl. and dual exhaust. It’ll be fine. He needs torque more than anything in the truck.

I have a dual plane intake for it. It was for my 360 magnum swap I did in my scamp. The motor I got ended up having the edelbrock swap manifold on it already though. So ge is gonna use that with a edelbrock 600 I had laying around. What camshaft would be better? The whiplash one or just a small "rv" style cam?
 
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